2,000 Greater & Lesser Mysteries/2,000 Greater and Lesser Mysteries.iso/ufo/abduct/mys02151.txt

Text File | 1994-06-10 | 1.3 MB | 31,493 lines

                           Abduction Digest, Number 1

                          Thursday, February 7th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                    Re: Hello

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moderator's Note: Please alias '[e-mail]'  the mailout
address to  '[e-mail]'
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Hello
Date: 30 Jan 91 00:34:00 GMT

Welcome, Dr. Jacobs!

Perhaps one of the things we could use to kick off this echo once again is
the idea of some kind of "regression database", e.g., common observations by
different abductees.

In particular, I`m wondering if any of the regressions have produced
observations of very specific details that are accurate enough for
comparison.

In particular, I understand Budd Hopkins uses recollections of UFO
"writing", which is almost always described as "heiroglyphic".  When I
buttonholed him at the 87 MUFON, he said that at least some of his subjects'
recollections agreed in great detail about the
characters/pictographs/ideographs of UFO "control room" writing.

Does this match your experience?

Again, welcome to ParaNet -- I'm looking forward to carrying this echo here
in N.J.

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************

Submissions UUCP        {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!abduct
Submissions DOMAIN        [e-mail]
Admin Address            [e-mail]

****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************

                           Abduction Digest, Number 2

                           Friday, February 15th 1991

Today's Topics:

                            Hopkins' writing samples
                               ParaNet FTP Archive

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From: [e-mail] (David M. Jacobs)
Subject: Hopkins' writing samples
Date: 10 Feb 91 23:15:17 GMT


    You are right, Clark, Hopkins does have a number of writing samples that
are astonishingly similar to each other.  Jim Speiser calls these "exoglyphs."
He is going to keep these confidential so that they will provide a good check
on abductee recollections.
    I think that a database is certainly the way to go.  I would first like to
see some standardization in the way that abductions are investigated so that
the same questions will be asked of everyone (abduction account permitting).
After that the accounts can be plugged into a database and we can see what
correlations there are.  Budd and I are making some strides in this area
already./S

--
David M. Jacobs - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: James Roger Black <[e-mail]>
Subject: ParaNet FTP Archive
Date: 14 Feb 91 20:07:39 GMT

From: James Roger Black <[e-mail]>

An archive of Info-ParaNet back issues is now available for downloading
via anonymous FTP on the Internet.

    host name:    ftp.uiowa.edu

    IP numbers:   128.255.1.3
                  128.255.64.3

    pathname:     archives/paranet/infopara

Back issues are stored by number, from 001 to through 365; only number
020 is missing.  Some early issues are combined (e.g., 001-004).  The
files are stored as straight text, so there is no need for decompression
or decoding software on your local host.

Future issues of the Newsletter will be added as they are published.
Issues of the new ParaNet Abductions Digest will also be made available
as they come out, under 'archives/paranet/abduct'.

This archive is being provided as a public service to FidoNet and the
ParaNet Information Service.  Its presence on a University of Iowa host
should not be construed as constituting an endorsement of either
organization or of the contents of the archive.  Responsibility for all
statements made and information provided in the archive remains with
the original authors and/or the distributing organizations.





****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************

Submissions UUCP        {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!abduct
Submissions DOMAIN        [e-mail]
Admin Address            [e-mail]

****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************

                           Abduction Digest, Number 3

                           Friday, February 22nd 1991

Today's Topics:

                                 new to network
                                 New To Network

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From: [e-mail] (Wade Kendall)
Subject: new to network
Date: 22 Feb 91 02:49:00 GMT

Hi.  I am new to this network and was referred to this BBS by a
co-worker of Budd Hopkins.  She felt  that my experience should be
shared with other people who were more open to  what I had to say.  Not
every one here in New Mexico believes in possible abductions.  I work
as a Registered Nurse and my experience happened 15 years ago while I
was working on my first degree in Socorro, N.M.  If anyone is
interested in hearing about it, or giving me their opinions on it just
leave a message for me and I will get back to you.
Thanks!
--
Wade Kendall - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: New To Network
Date: 22 Feb 91 03:23:00 GMT


 > Hi.  I am new to this network and was referred to this
 > BBS by a co-worker of Budd Hopkins.  She felt  that my
 > experience should be shared with other people who were
 > more open to  what I had to say.  Not every one here
 > in New Mexico believes in possible abductions.  I work
 > as a Registered Nurse and my experience happened 15
 > years ago while I was working on my first degree in
 > Socorro, N.M.  If anyone is interested in hearing
 > about it, or giving me their opinions on it just leave
 > a message for me and I will get back to you.

By all means, please share it with us.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************

Submissions UUCP        {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!abduct
Submissions DOMAIN        [e-mail]
Admin Address            [e-mail]

****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************

                           Abduction Digest, Number 4

                            Monday, March 11th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                   Re: Welcome
                              Re: Tesla & Tau Ceti
                                 Re: Appointment

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From: [e-mail] (Wade Kendall)
Subject: Re: Welcome
Date: 28 Feb 91 04:44:00 GMT

Thanks for the welcome.  I will be uploading a file to Paranet
concerning my possible abduction.  Michael Corbin says he will post it
to the generl libraries, take a look at it and let me know your opinion
on it.  Budd Hopkins is aware of it and thought it might warrant
further consideration.
Again, thanks for the welcome.
Wade
--
Wade Kendall - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Tesla & Tau Ceti
Date: 11 Mar 91 04:18:00 GMT

Hello Clark, just looking at this board for e first time tonight on
march 10 & saw your message.  I donn't know why the name Tau Ceti came
to me--it was last yea in March.  I just woke up saying the words
over and over.  I thoug Tau Ceti sounded Egyptian.  I didn't even
know the correct elling (tah setti sounded good enough at the me).
Finally, I asked my husband abouit and he said it sounded ke one
of the stars in the stellation Cetus to him.  He had a dusty old
astronomy book from 1953.  Sure enough, there it was.  Later I learned
that Marjorisher listed Tau Ceti as one of the planets in that star
drawing Betty Hill did.  I freaked a That's all I know.  Write
again on the Ariz. Paranet.  [phone].
--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Re: Appointment
Date: 11 Mar 91 07:48:00 GMT


 Linda Bird writes:

 > for words...I don't understand the connectio Tau Ceti, do
 > you?--- ZMailQ 1.10 @9:1012/0.0 * Origin: ParaNet(sm)

Maybe they wanted you to get in touch with me!  <g>
Actually, Tau Ceti has come up in a number of cases, including
the Betty & Barney Hill case.  (It was depicted in their star
map.)
Also the IRAS (infared astronomical sat.) had Tau Ceti included
in its survey of stars that may have orbiting planets or
protoplanets.  It seems like a good candidate and its only about
12 light years away.
                                  --  John

--
John Burke - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************

Submissions UUCP        {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!abduct
Submissions DOMAIN        [e-mail]
Admin Address            [e-mail]

****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************

                           Abduction Digest, Number 5

                            Monday, March 18th 1991

Today's Topics:

                              Re: Tesla & Tau Ceti
                              1991:  A Space Oddity
                    hypnotherapist needed for Oregon abductee
                                   Appointment

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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Tesla & Tau Ceti
Date: 12 Mar 91 01:24:00 GMT


Hi Linda.

Well, I've read a bit about Nicola Tesla and his contemporaries and
inventions, but I haven't run across anything that indicates Tesla
was receiving signals from Tau Ceti.  He did say many times that he
was receiving scalar-electromagnetic signals from either the moon or
Mars, however.  It's a touchy subject, because we still don't have
especially good scalar sensing equipment.  So it's hard to verify.

Tesla wasn't the only one to feel he was getting stray signals from
space, you know.  Marconi's people in England felt the same way and
took elaborate steps to try to intercept more signals.

I have a file around here somewhere that describes some of the
efforts made at Marconi's English research facility in the 1920s.
Tesla, as far as I know, never got the funding to attempt to detect
the source of his "signals".

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: 1991:  A Space Oddity
Date: 13 Mar 91 04:55:00 GMT


Hi again, Linda.  Just found a very interesting file by an
astronomer re: Constructions observed on the Moon.  I'll advise you
of the file name & make it available on ParaNet & KeelyNet when it's
typed up.

There have been many such observations over the last 100 years,
often lasting several months.  In fact, a famous Mexican astronomer
observed disks traveling against the face of the moon over 100 years
ago!  Moreover, similar constructions pop up time & again, like
prefabs.

I'll let you know the file name.

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: hypnotherapist needed for Oregon abductee
Date: 14 Mar 91 03:15:00 GMT

Anyone knowing of a reputable hynotherapist in the Newport, Oregon area
please post a message for Sheldon Wernikoff.
I have been corresponding with a woman who has experienced very extensive
periods of missing time over the past ten years, and is now wishing to
explore further.


--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Appointment
Date: 15 Mar 91 08:09:27 GMT


 LB> hELLO jOHN, Just received your messaged tonight, 3/30/91.  Thanks
 LB> for words...I don't understand the connectio Tau Ceti, do you?


Ahh...I see our 'Future Message Generator' is once again working.  :-)
--
Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************

Submissions UUCP        {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!abduct
Submissions DOMAIN        [e-mail]
Admin Address            [e-mail]

****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************

                           Abduction Digest, Number 6

                            Sunday, March 24th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                   Appointment
                            Re: 1991:  A Space Oddity
                            Re: 1991:  A Space Oddity

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moderator's Note: Our Domain address is broken at this time so please use these
internet type address to submit from the internet( UUCP address is as before):
[e-mail]   or  [e-mail]
WE hope to have the mx records corrected during this week
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Appointment
Date: 19 Mar 91 14:34:00 GMT


 >  LB> hELLO jOHN, Just received your messaged tonight, 3/30/91.  Thanks
 >  LB> for words...I don't understand the connectio Tau Ceti, do you?
 >
 >
 > Ahh...I see our 'Future Message Generator' is once again working.  :-)

Musta been cross posted from Predictions....<grin>

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: 1991:  A Space Oddity
Date: 21 Mar 91 00:53:00 GMT

ClarK, I got your message form Mar 12 about oddities on the moon (or
the odd moon, hee hee) and I'd love to see those files.
   The first book I saw that mentioned signals from Tau Ceti was "The
Interrupted Journey" by John Fuller.  On pg 9 and 60, I think.  Then at
last year's MUFON mtg in Pensacola, I bumped into a booklet called THE
ZETA RETICULI INCIDENT; it contains reprints of articles mentioning
stars which might have planets, plus info on B & B Hill, etc.
   Sorry it has taken so long to answer--hubby had our confuser loaded
up with a tax program!  Bye, and as we say in Arizona, "Hasta la Taco."
LINDA
--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Jim Graham)
Subject: Re: 1991:  A Space Oddity
Date: 21 Mar 91 04:33:04 GMT

* Message sent by Clark Matthews on 12 Mar 91 to Linda Bird:


 >of the file name & make it available on ParaNet & KeelyNet when it's
 >typed up.

Clark, could you tell me more about "KeelyNet"?

Thanks,
-Jim

--
Jim Graham - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************

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Submissions DOMAIN        [e-mail]
Admin Address            [e-mail]

****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************

                           Abduction Digest, Number 7

                             Friday, April 5th 1991

Today's Topics:

                     KeelyNet & Vangard Sciences Foundation
                                    Continuum
                              Submit your articles!
                               Abduction research
                                A peculiar dream
                                  Re: Continuum

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: KeelyNet & Vangard Sciences Foundation
Date: 1 Apr 91 07:47:00 GMT


 >
 > Clark, could you tell me more about "KeelyNet"?
 >
 > Thanks,
 > -Jim

Hi Jim.  KeelyNet is a BBS in Texas dedicated to the ideas of John
Keely and other, similar free-energy pioneers.  Other BBSs of
similar description are the Tesla BBS and the Cheyenne Mountain BBS.
And my own humble Wrong Number BBS, 201-451-3063.

I have all the KeelyNet files here, feel free to download 'em or
FREQ the files list.

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Continuum
Date: 2 Apr 91 06:17:00 GMT




             ***   P a r a N e t   C O N T I N U U M   ***

                            Continues ...



CONTINUUM is back!

ParaNet's newsletter of UFOlogy, online communications, paranormal
studies and research is resuming publication.

An exciting forum for an array of interests -- and a handy resource
for finding:


                  -- Current UFO events and symposia

                     -- Computer bulletin boards

                           -- Study groups

                          -- Contact groups

              -- Researchers and research organizations

                         -- Writers and more.


Complimentary copies of CONTINUUM's premiere issue will be available
to ParaNet participants and other interested parties for the price of
postage.

Thereafter, CONTINUUM will be available by subscription only, mailed
First Class within the U.S.  Please inquire via NetMail for more
information and subscription rates, including overseas rates.

Send mail to:

* ParaNet Alpha 1-303-431-8797 -- address echomail to Michael Corbin at
     9:9/0 (ParaNet) or
     1:104/422 (Fido) or
     [e-mail] (Internet)

* ParaNet Pi 1-201-451-3063 -- address echomail to Clark Matthews at
     9:1012/4 (ParaNet) or
     1:107/816 (FidoNet) or
     P.O. Box 3934, Jersey City, NJ  07303-3934

* James Roger Black on InterNet at
     shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu!jrblack (Internet)

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Submit your articles!
Date: 2 Apr 91 06:23:00 GMT



             ***   P a r a N e t   C O N T I N U U M   ***


               C A L L   F O R   S U B M I S S I O N S



CONTINUUM is back!

ParaNet's newsletter of UFOlogy, research, online communications, and
paranormal studies is resuming publication -- and calling for
submissions.

We are seeking articles of 500 to 3000 words for the premiere issue,
which is scheduled for publication in July 1991.

Publication will be quarterly.  Payment will be in copies.

            *** S U B M I S S I O N   D E A D L I N E  ***

                             May 15, 1991

                         Send submissions to:

                            Clark Matthews
                         The Wrong Number BBS
                            P.O. Box 3934
                     Jersey City, NJ  07303-3934



          *** E D I T O R I A L   S U B M I S S I O N S ***

                           SUBMIT ANYTHING!

We don't PROMISE to publish it, but if your topic interests you as a
UFO buff, we think it's a safe bet that others in our "circle" will
share your interest.

Science fiction.  Science fact.  UFO/paranormal history.  Scaly-eyed
skepticism.  A book review.  A television critique.  An interview.
The results of your last physics experiment.  You name it:  If it
interests you, it will probably interest us and your compeers here.
And it's welcome in CONTINUUM.

Registered copyrighted material will be protected but we do assume a
grant of non-exclusive serial rights from you, the author, upon
submission and before delivery of complimentary copies.  You must
inform us of other, pending rights sales upon submission.
Likewise, if you submit work-in-progress, your unpublished copyright
will be respected but a grant of non-exclusive serial rights is
expected in exchange for editorial and development work and before the
delivery of complimentary copies.  (Heck, we might even improve it!)


                 *** P L A N N E D   T O P I C S ***


            Planned articles in the coming issue include:


                          * The Fatima Enigma

        * Online listening post -- best of the ParaNet echoes

     * The Philadelphia Experiment:  Build It in Your Basement?!

                 * ParaNet -- 5 years and counting...

                            * UFO History

                         * UFO current events

                       * Handy UFO classifieds

                            * And more...



            *** M A G A Z I N E   H I G H L I G H T S ***

                 * Free classified public notices of:

                      -- UFO events and symposia

                     -- Computer bulletin boards

                           -- Study groups

                          -- Contact groups

              -- Researchers and research organizations

                         -- Writers and more.

Maximum ad length 40 words, including address and zip code.  Dues-
based membership organizations and sponsors of symposia may advertise,
but free classified ads cannot offer anything for sale.

Space for free classifieds is limited, and the offer does not apply to
display advertising.  The management reserves the right not to publish
ads.
It's definitely "un-commercial", but we're committed to keeping the
the "bulletin board" concept alive in the UFOlogical community.  So we
want CONTINUUM to be a helpful resource for its readers -- just like
ParaNet is for its users.  What goes around, comes around, in other
words.


Complimentary copies of CONTINUUM's premiere issue will be available
to ParaNet participants and other interested parties for the price of
postage.

Thereafter, CONTINUUM will be available by subscription only, mailed
First Class within the U.S.  Please inquire via NetMail for more
information and subscription rates, including overseas rates.


Best,
 Clark Matthews           Michael Corbin           James Roger Black
 Editorial Director       System Administrator     Contributing Editor


Send netmail to:

* ParaNet Alpha 1-303-431-8797 -- address echomail to Michael Corbin at
     9:9/0 (ParaNet) or
     1:104/422 (Fido) or
     [e-mail] (Internet)

* ParaNet Pi 1-201-451-3063 -- address echomail to Clark Matthews at
     9:1012/4 (ParaNet) or
     1:107/816 (FidoNet) or
     P.O. Box 3934, Jersey City, NJ  07303-3934

* James Roger Black on InterNet at
     shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu!jrblack (Internet)

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Abduction research
Date: 3 Apr 91 17:12:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "ParaNet Research"
 * Originally from Keith Basterfield
 * Originally dated 04-02-91 22:34

A recent issue of the Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry, 1990;
24:561-565, carries a several page article by Terry Heins, Allison Gray and
Maxine Tennant titled "Persisting hallucinations following childhood sexual
abuse." Thery describe work by an American, Ellenson, who interviewed female
incest survivors. "Careful mental state examinations found that all showed a
post-incest syndrome involving specific disturbances in thought (certain types
of nightmares, obsessions, dissociative experiences and phobias) and in
perception (certain types of illusions and visual and auditory
hallucinations)."..."Commonest were shadowy figures, movements in peripheral
vision, intruder sounds...and inner helper voices..." I see some parallels with
abductees here. As you may be aware Bob Bartholomew
and I have drawn researchers attention to the possible link between
fantasy-prone personality, abductees and childhood abuse.  The line of
thinking would go: could lifelong abductions actually be due to childhood
(sexual) abuse (which we believe can trigger multiple personality
disorders), causing a fantasy world creation which is then interpreted by UFO
researchers as of alien abductions? We have challenged researchers to undertake
detailed psychological testing
of abductees to test if they are fantasy-prone, and also suggest the checking
of their childhood for evidence of sexual abuse.  I can supply some references
for those interested in further reading on this topic. Comments would be
welcome on this matter.

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: eniac.seas.upenn.edu!snelson
Subject: A peculiar dream
Date: 4 Apr 91 06:30:29 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Steven Nelson)

When I was young, I'm not certain precisely when, I had a very peculiar
recurring dream:

    It was the fourth of July. We had set up fireworks in the backyard,
and my father was holding some sort of barbacue. A number of obviously dream-
like elements mark this as a dream. For example, a pig, which I had treated as
a pet in the dream, was cooked, then came back to life.
    I crawled to a neighbor's yard-- a huge, grassy field. I saw flashing
lights coming from the area, which I interpreted as fireworks. As I emerged
from the clearing, I could see that the lights came from a huge UFO, which
hovered over the clearing at approximately treetop level. It was bright and
multicolored. Next I was rising in a beam of light. At the end of the light,
there was a face. After so many years, I can't tell you what the face looked
like, except that the skin was pale, perhaps grey, and the mouth was a slit.
When I saw the face, I would always feel intense terror and wake up.

    The oddest part about this whole affair is that I'm CERTAIN that what
I just described was a dream. None of the classic physical signs occurred:
no disturbances in the grass, no peculiar wounds, no midnight nosebleeds,
no notable periods of missing time. At the time, I was pretty sure that I
had gotten it from watching 'Close Encounters' and seeing Star Trek.

    Would anyone care to tell me anything about my dream? What is, in
your opinion, the likelihood that visitors abducted me? Or was I just scared
by the fireworks?

-Steve




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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Continuum
Date: 4 Apr 91 05:41:00 GMT

Hello Clark!  I'd bevery happy to receive THE CONTINUUM.  My address:
     1154 E. Palmcroft
     Tempe, AZ   85252
Are you still planning to put up that file on Moon Oddities, or is it
just that I haven't seen it yet?
    The March MUFON UFO Journal (which just came 2 days ago) is
excellent, BTW, if you happen to subscribe.  Has an article that
presents a new angle on some "crop circles" in Canada; and an article,
quite lengthy, on an alleged witness to a saucer crash in New Mexico in
1947 - ties in with Roswell.
    Don't let the snow get you down.  We were at 91 degrees today!
Bye!   Linda.
--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************

Submissions UUCP        {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!abduct
Submissions DOMAIN        [e-mail]
Admin Address            [e-mail]

****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************

                           Abduction Digest, Number 8

                             Monday, April 8th 1991

Today's Topics:

                             Re: Abduction Research
                             Re: Abduction Research

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Elizabeth Anderson)
Subject: Re: Abduction Research
Date: 6 Apr 91 04:04:00 GMT

Hello, Jim. I was very interested in your message here about the possible
connection between sexual abuse/abduction claims.


I have been interested for the last few years in the whole 'satanism'
phenomena, and have noticed many parallels between abduction claims and the
claims made by 'satanic ritual child abuse survivors'. I have been
corresponding with Dr. Robert Baker, a professor of psychology at the
University of Kentucky on this subject and he recently suggested that I look
into getting a book called "Sexual Abuse Hysteria: the Salem Witch Trials
revisited" by Richard A. Gardner. You might find this interesting reading as
well.


Are you familiar with a book called 'Anomalistic Psychology' by Zusne and
Jones? It is truly a book every skeptic and every 'believer' should read.
The mind really is a very strange place.



Elizabeth

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From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Abduction Research
Date: 6 Apr 91 22:03:00 GMT


 > Hello, Jim. I was very interested in your message here about the
 > possible connection between sexual abuse/abduction claims.
 >

Hi, Elizabeth. The message actually wasn't from me, but from Keith
Basterfield, who is a leading UFO and abduction researcher in Australia. It
was Keith who was among the first to suggest such a connection. I cross-posted
the message to Abductions, where I thought it also belonged.

I am familiar with the book you cited, but I have not yet had a chance to pick
it up. Interestingly enough, I am currently involved in researching one
abduction case right now, but sexual abuse does not seem to be a factor, nor
does any childhood trauma. (Please request the file LYDIA331.TXT from my
system for an interim report on the progress of this case.)

I am also familiar with Dr. Baker, having met him briefly in Lincoln, NE in
1988. He impressed me as someone who has long ago made up his mind that
Fantasy Prone Personality is the culprit in abductions, and writes about the
subject with a degree of vitriole and scorn that is quite unbecoming of a
scientist. So far, in the few studies I'm aware of, including one being
conducted by CUFOS as we speak, there is no real indication of a connection
between FPP and abductions. That is not to say that one may not show up in the
future, when a more statistically significant segment of the affected
population has been screened. But it is certainly too early to draw any
conclusions, as Dr. Baker seems to have done.

Jim

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                           Abduction Digest, Number 9

                            Friday, April 12th 1991

Today's Topics:

                               Abduction research
                               Abduction Research

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Tyson Mitchiner)
Subject: Abduction research
Date: 8 Apr 91 00:20:00 GMT


 > A recent issue of the Australian and New Zealand Journal of
 > Psychiatry, 1990;
 > 24:561-565, carries a several page article by Terry Heins,
 > Allison Gray and Maxine Tennant titled "Persisting
 > hallucinations following childhood sexual abuse." Thery
 > describe work by an American, Ellenson, who interviewed
 > female incest survivors. "Careful mental state examinations
 > found that all showed a post-incest syndrome involving
 > specific disturbances in thought (certain types of
 > nightmares, obsessions, dissociative experiences and phobias)
 > and in perception (certain types of illusions and visual and
 > auditory hallucinations)."..."Commonest were shadowy figures,
 > movements in peripheral vision, intruder sounds...and inner
 > helper voices..." I see some parallels with abductees here.
 > As you may be aware Bob Bartholomew
 > and I have drawn researchers attention to the possible link
 > between
 > fantasy-prone personality, abductees and childhood abuse.
 > The line of
 > thinking would go: could lifelong abductions actually be due
 > to childhood (sexual) abuse (which we believe can trigger
 > multiple personality
 > disorders), causing a fantasy world creation which is then
 > interpreted by UFO researchers as of alien abductions? We
 > have challenged researchers to undertake detailed
 > psychological testing
 > of abductees to test if they are fantasy-prone, and also
 > suggest the checking
 > of their childhood for evidence of sexual abuse.  I can
 > supply some references for those interested in further
 > reading on this topic. Comments would be welcome on this
 > matter.

(Due to the nature how arguments start here because people jump to
conclusions, I will state here I am not trying to invalidate what
you say.. I just want to see your comments on my comments-)
  This link looks moderately plausible, but fails to explain why in
such large numbers, with such repetition, people describe the aliens
as the greys or the blues.. If this link was true, wouldn't such
"shadows" be of different forms, and not being the exact same
description of what they greys and the blues look like?  How does
this link explain the missing time, the markings on some people, the
appearance of surgery in the brain area (when the person has never
been recorded having such surgery before), and lastly, but not
least, the other family members who were not abused before but are
affected by the visitations, also?
I do not claim that alien abduction does indeed exist, (it would be
illogical, since I do not have concrete proof of this) but I am very
concerned at the large numbers (not just 50.. but in the thousands)
of people coming out reporting abuction, describing the same beings,
under hypnosis?  Hypnosis can yield false results.. but in such a
large numbers?  Wouldn't there be many inconsistiencies?
I'm open to listen to any information on this subject, though.. I
am curious about this, and want to know the cause, be it aliens,
hallucinations, etc.
                                                Tyson
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Abduction Research
Date: 9 Apr 91 18:40:00 GMT


 >   This link looks moderately plausible, but fails to explain why in such
 > large numbers, with such repetition, people describe the aliens as the
 > greys or the blues.. If this link was true, wouldn't such
 > "shadows" be of different forms, and not being the exact same
 > description of what they greys and the blues look like?  How does this
 > link explain the missing time, the markings on some people, the
 > appearance of surgery in the brain area (when the person has never been
 > recorded having such surgery before), and lastly, but not least, the
 > other family members who were not abused before but are affected by the
 > visitations, also?

While this all sounds good, the data has been sufficiently withheld as to not
permit other qualified persons to examine the data relating to the claims that
you have referenced above.  I do not believe that there are really medical
records to back up some of these rumors, therefore we have a lot of claims
without representation.  Unfortunately, we must take the word of the so-called
experts to provide us with accurate data.  The second part of the problem is
that it has been found that the field of abduction research has been totally
polluted by the mass amount of publicity which it has received together with
complete descriptions of what the "critters" look like.  Take for an example,
an issue of Omni magazine some years back featured an article and questionaire
by Dr. Bruce Maccabee and Budd Hopkins soliciting possible abductees.  I found
this article to be highly suggestive and would corrupt those answering the
questionaire, thereby seriously compromising the data.  Let us not forget the
wide distribution that Omni enjoys.  Secondly, the nationally televised
program, "UFO Cover-UP? Live!" aired October, 1988 also highly publicized the
portrait of what these critters might look like.  The problem thusly lies with
how much of the data is good and how much is totally corrupt?

 > I do not claim that alien abduction does indeed exist, (it would be
 > illogical, since I do not have concrete proof of this) but I am very
 > concerned at the large numbers (not just 50.. but in the thousands) of
 > people coming out reporting abuction, describing the same beings, under
 > hypnosis?  Hypnosis can yield false results.. but in such a large
 > numbers?  Wouldn't there be many inconsistiencies?
 > I'm open to listen to any information on this subject, though.. I am
 > curious about this, and want to know the cause, be it aliens,
 > hallucinations, etc.

This is a very good point, however we do not have sufficient data to determine
what the norm is for people who might fall under the Fantasy Prone.  In a
studies done with abduction research, it was found that there were striking
consistencies between non-abductees and abductees in their descriptions of
what takes place during an abduction experience.  There is not enough data to
answer the why of this yet, but it is being studied.

Mike

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                          Abduction Digest, Number 10

                           Thursday, April 25th 1991

Today's Topics:

                               Abduction Research
                               Abduction Research
                               Abduction Research
                                   Rima Laibow
                    INFO: Clinical Analysis of UFO Abductions
                                 Rima Laibow (2)
                                 Rima Laibow (3)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Abduction Research
Date: 14 Apr 91 17:44:00 GMT


 >  > This is a very good point, however we do not have sufficient
 >  > data to determine what the norm is for people who might fall
 >  > under the Fantasy Prone.  In a studies done with abduction
 >  > research, it was found that there were striking consistencies
 >  > between non-abductees and abductees in their descriptions of
 >  > what takes place during an abduction experience.  There is
 >  > not enough data to answer the why of this yet, but it is
 >  > being studied.
 >  >
 >  > Mike
 >
 >   Ok.. let me know what new information on this subject comes out.
 >
 > Regarding non-abductees and abductees, I'm sure that there would be some
 > that, upon reading those abduction stories, would attempt to believe a
 > fantasy that they were abductees also.
 >
 >   However, there have been many cases where people actually denied and
 > tried to hide the fact that they were being abducted.. and still were
 > unbeleiving when hypnosis revealed what happened.  It doesn't sound like
 > a fad or someone looking for fame...

I do not deny that there is a possibility that there are abduction cases,
however I feel that the time has come that we should re-evaluate our
methodology and investigation practices at how we come down to researching
these.  I am very much against anyone performing any work on abductees without
having the medical credentials for both attempting to find out what happened
and for dealing with the victim following the traumatic experience.  I would
say that the damage done by well-meaning UFOlogists to the victims could be
potentially worse after the experience than the actual experience itself.

Mike

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From: [e-mail] (Tyson Mitchiner)
Subject: Abduction Research
Date: 17 Apr 91 23:01:07 GMT


 MC> I do not deny that there is a possibility that there are
 MC> abduction cases, however I feel that the time has come that we
 MC> should re-evaluate our methodology and investigation practices at
 MC> how we come down to researching these.  I am very much against
 MC> anyone performing any work on abductees without having the
 MC> medical credentials for both attempting to find out what happened
 MC> and for dealing with the victim following the traumatic
 MC> experience.  I would say that the damage done by well-meaning
 MC> UFOlogists to the victims could be potentially worse after the
 MC> experience than the actual experience itself.

 MC> Mike

 I agree with you...  How do you plan to evaluate those investigation pratices?

 I feel that we aren't doing enough to investigate the abduction phenomenon. It
seems all the investigation is done by amateurs, etc. without a real serious
investigation into the abduction phenomenon by experts (by experts I mean
people who are dedicated to discovering the facts, and not jumping to
conclusions or opinions).

 However, it won't be easy to establish this.  Maybe over time, we can
sufficiently persuade the government, etc. for a serious scientific study into
this.

                                             Tyson

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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Abduction Research
Date: 21 Apr 91 17:33:00 GMT


 >  I agree with you...  How do you plan to evaluate those investigation
 > pratices?

I would say that several steps need to be taken.  Chiefly, we should get
medical professionals invovled who can establish standards and controls to be
used for the investigation of abductions.  Despite the negative inference
that credible scientific people will shy away from this subject, there are
those out there with enough medical/scientific savvy to take a serious look
at this aspect.  Secondly, the victims of alleged abductions should be
treated exactly as anyone would suffering from a traumatic stress disorder.
I do not believe that abductees should be treated special as this tends to
stigmatize their emotional state as it is following such trauma.  Support
groups are a negative reinforcement since it amplifies the inability to
explain what is going on with abductions.  Vallee makes a very good point in
that he does not believe that we should be reinforcing and attempting to
infuse an abduction experience into the abductees' perception of reality
since there is not enough data to support what in fact actually happens.  As
he puts it, it is like trying to force a square through a hole.  How true!

 >  I feel that we aren't doing enough to investigate the abduction
 > phenomenon.. It seems all the investigation is done by amateurs, etc.
 > without a real serious investigation into the abduction phenomenon by
 > experts (by experts I mean people who are dedicated to discovering the
 > facts, and not jumping to conclusions or opinions).

I fully agree.  However, we have an incredible amount of work to do.  First,
we must undo the damage that is being done right now.  Qualified people
looking in are not impressed at the happenings within our community.  They
see literally thousands of people alleging this type of encounter, and they
see unqualiifed people regressing victims and the whole thing breaks down.
Charges fly that the quality of the data is seriously compromised by people
unqualified to do hypnosis and that the whole subject is so saturated with
preconceived notions that the signal to noise ration is way off the scale.
This is sad, but true.  I refer to an article which appeared in an OMNI
magazine some years back which was authored by Budd Hopkins and Bruce
Maccabee.  This article was highly suggestive and seemed to start the flood
of abduction reports coming in.  It surveyed people who may have been
abducted by proposing symptoms of missing time, etc.  The person was
encouraged to fill out the questionaire and mail it in.

To get at the idea of establishing standards, I feel that one place to look
would be to review the transcripts and records of Betty and Barney Hill.
This could be considered to be the first abduction experience that was
critically studied by a qualified medical doctor, Benjamin Simon.  Simon had
no preconceived ideas about abductions or UFOs.  There are other things that
will be useful that will come about from qualified studies.  There is some
very good research going on with CUFOS (J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO
Studies).  I understand that results and findings will be released shortly.
Thomas Bullard has also done some good research work on this which can be
found in the 1989 Journal for UFO Studies, published by CUFOS.  I can get you
a mailing address if you want to inquire further about it.

All in all, we have a responsibility to the victims first and foremost to get
them qualified help.  The relief from the stressful emotions should occur
first with an emphasis on the actual experience coming secondarily.  We also
should publicly denounce unqualified investigators from having anything to do
with abductees.  The data should be available to the investigator, instead of
the witness being available to the investigator.  In this, we might get
somewhere with this important study.  This is not to say that should some
educational program be initiated for investigators, that there could not be
involvement, but until that happens, I feel that the best policy would be as I
mention above.

>  However, it won't be easy to establish this.  Maybe over time,
>  we can sufficiently persuade the government, etc. for a serious scientific
> study into this.

I advocate that we conduct all of our research within the civilian
scientific/research community for the time being.  We need an organized effort
on a global scale.  This can be achieved with our current resources if we can
pool them effectively.  We will just have to see.

Thanks for your post.

Mike

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From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Rima Laibow
Date: 20 Apr 91 07:42:00 GMT

(1773)  Wed 17 Apr 91  7:51p    Rcvd: Wed 17 Apr  8:40p
By: Uucp, ParaNet(sm) Information Servi (104/422)
To: Michael Corbin
Re: "Clinical Analysis of UFO Abductions" - a report

From: [e-mail] (Kim DeVaughn)

[ I'm sending this to the "abduct-request" address, as all attempts
  to get email thru to "scicom.alphacdc.com" or "scicom" result in
  bounces.  Please forward if you have a working address ... Thanks!
  /kim ]


The attached was recently posted to the indicated USENET newsgroups.

I thought it might be worth including in a future Abduction Digest,
but as the poster says ... it is not "light reading".

/kim   /\oo__

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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: INFO: Clinical Analysis of UFO Abductions
Date: 10 Apr 91 02:02:45 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL


What follows is a report given on the Psychiatry and evaluation of
UFO abducted victims by RIMA E. LAIBOW, M.D. This report is not
considered "light" reading.

As usual, my *disclaimer* will be to read and make up your own mind :-)

------ Begin Included Text --------------------------------------------

                             RIMA E. LAIBOW, M.D.
                          Child and Adult Psychiatry

                                             Cerridwen
                                     13 Summit Terrace
                                Dobbs' Ferry, NY 10522
                                         [phone]

     CLINICAL DISCREPANCIES BETWEEN EXPECTED AND OBSERVED DATA IN PATIENTS
             REPORTING UFO ABDUCTIONS: IMPLICATIONS FOR TREATMENT

  ABSTRACT:  IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT THIS PAPER MAKES NO ATTEMPT TO ASSIGN OR
WITHHOLD EXTERNAL VALIDITY RELATIVE TO UFO ABDUCTION SCENARIOS.

        Patients who believe themselves to be UFO abductees are a
heterogeneous group widely dispersed along demographic and cultural lines.
Careful examination of these patients and their abduction reports presents
four areas of significant discrepancy between expected and observed data.

        Implications for the treatment of patients presenting UFO abduction
scenarios are discussed.

        INTRODUCTION

        If a patient were to confide to a therapist that he had been abducted
by aliens who took him aboard a UFO and performed a series of medical
procedures and examinations on him it is not likely that the patient would
find either a receptive ear or a respectful and non-judgemental response from
the therapist.  The material presented would lie so far outside the confines
of our personal and cultural belief system that it would seem intolerably
anomalous to most of us.  We would probably dismiss or repudiate it using a
few comfortable and familiar assumptions which hold so much obvious wisdom
that they do not require specific examination.

        When events which are too anomalous to allow their incorporation
into our world schema are presented to us, we are likely to dismiss them
by using assumptions based in out currently operative world view.  This
effectively precludes the open evaluation of the anomaly.  Hence, the
"expressible" response of most clinical and lay individuals upon hearing a UFO
abduction account would be an immediate dismissal of even the possibility that
such an episode might occur.  Close upon the heels of that determination the
rapid and complete pathologization of the person offering such an account
would follow.  Dream states, suggestibility, poor reality testing, outright
dissembling or frank psychosis are customarily offered and accepted as evident
and reasonable organizing models by which the production of this material may
be understood. These are typical maneuvers by which the presentation of
information which challenges schematic assumptions is dismissed or screened
out before the assumptions can be adequately tested for predictive reliability
and accuracy.  Such testing is highly desirable, however, because it offers
us the opportunity to apply the scientific method to our current level of
theorital sophistication and thereby refine our understanding of reality
further still. Of course, this process is severely impeded when the new data
is excluded from consideration strictly because it is too anomalous for
assessment.

<Continued in next message..>

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From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Rima Laibow (2)
Date: 20 Apr 91 07:43:00 GMT

<<Continued from previous message>>

        Westrum has offered a model by which events become "hidden" and
therefore remain anomalous to the perception of society in a circular
process: the hidden event is disbelieved and its disbelief helps to keep it
hidden.  Citing the lengthy period during which battered children and their
battering parents remained hidden, Westrum states:

                "An event is hidden if its occurrence is so implausible
                that those who observe it hesitate to report it because
                they do not expect to be believed.  The implausibility
                may cause the observer to doubt his own perceptions,
                leading to the event's denial or mis identification.
                Should the observer nonetheless make a report, he/she
                can expect to be treated with incredulity or even
                ridicule.  Since the existence of a hidden event is
                contrary to what science, society, and perhaps even
                the observer believes, the event remains hidden because
                of strong social forces which interfere with
                reporting.  The actual degree of underreporting is
                sometimes difficult to believe, a skepticism which
                itself acts as a deterrent to taking seriously
                those reports which do surface." (1)

        But for the clinician who spends a moment before reaching these
"obvious" and "intuitive" conclusions, several fascinating and potentially
productive questions present themselves.  If we refrain for a short period
from dismissing this material out-of-hand, we find that there are at least
four areas of puzzling and important discrepancy between our intuitive sense
of order and the data presented by the patient.  These discrepancies force us
to re-examine our assumptions in light of a demonstrated failure of the theory
to account for the observed phenomena.  This process, while taxing and
challenging, is nonetheless, the way we systemize our understanding of human
health and pathology.  Noting the previously un-noted and using it to refine
our conceptual framework leads to better prediction and therefore to better
treatment.

        It is not the purpose of this paper to ascribe relative reality to the
experience of abduction reported by some patients. Rather, precisely because
it lies outside the realm of clinical expertise to assess with certainty
whether these events actually occurred or if they are mere fantasy, it is
mandatory for the clinician to examine the impact of these experiences,
whatever their source, upon the patient. This must be done in a clear sighted
and open-minded fashion so that the impact of the experiences may be dealt
with rather than made into hidden events.

        AREAS OF DISCREPANCY

        1. ABSENCE OF MAJOR PSYCHOPATHOLOGY:    It is intuitively
seductive (and perhaps comfortable) for us to assume that psychotic-level
functioning will necessarily be present in a person claiming to be a UFO
abductee.  If this level of distortion and delusion is present, a patient
would be expected to demonstrate some other evidence of reality distortion.
Pathology of this magnitude would not be predicted to be present in a well
integrated, mature and non-psychotic individual.  Instead, we would expect
clinical and psychometric tools to reveal serious problems in numerous areas
both inter- and interpersonally.  It would be highly surprising if otherwise
well-functioning persons were to demonstrate a single area of floridly
psychotic distortion.  Further, if this single idea fix were totally
circumscribed, non-invasive and discrete, that in itself would be highly
anomalous.  Well-developed, fixed delusional states with numerous
elaborated and sequential components are not seen in otherwise healthy
individuals.  Prominent evidence of deep dysfunction would be expected to
pervade many areas of the patient's life.  One would predict that if the
abduction experience were the product of delusional or other psychotic states,
it would be possible to detect such evidence through the clinical and
psychometric tools available to us.

        This points to the first important discrepancy:  individuals
claiming alien abduction frequently show no evidence of past or present
psychosis, delusional thinking, reality-testing deficits, hallucinations or
other significant psychopathology despite extensive clinical evaluation.
Instead, there is a conspicuous absence of psychopathology of the magnitude
necessary to account for the production of floridly delusional and presumably
psychotic material.(2)

        In order to test this startling and anomalous information, a group of
subjects who believe they have been abducted by aliens (9, 5 male, 4 female)
were asked to participate in a psychometric evaluation. An experienced
clinical psychologist carried out an investigation using projection tests
(Rorschach, TAT, Draw a Person and the MMPI) and the Wechler Adult
Intelligence Scale.  The examining clinician was told "the subjects were being
evaluated to determine similarities and differences in personality structure,
as well as psychological strengths and weaknesses".  All of the subjects
actively refrained from sharing UFO-related experiences with the examiner and
she was unaware of this theme in their lives.

        The investigator found that commonalties were not strongly present and
that:
                "while the subjects are quite heterogeneous in their
                personality styles, there is a modicum of homogeneity
                in several respects: (1) relatively high intelligence
                with concomitant richness of inner life; (2) relative
                weakness in the sense of identity, especially sexual
                identity; (3) concomitant vulnerability in the inter-
                personal realm; (4) a certain orientation towards
                alertness which is manifest alternately in a certain
                perceptual sophistication and awareness or in inter-
                personal hyper-vigilance and caution.... Perhaps the
                most obvious and prominent impression left by the
                nine subjects is the range of personality styles
                the present.... There is little to unite them as a
                group from the standpoint of the overt manifestations
                of their personalities.... They [are] very distinctive
                unusual and interesting subjects. [But] "Along with
                above average intelligence, richness in mental life,
                and indications of narcissistic identity disturbance,
                the nine subjects also share some degree of impair-
                ment in personal relationships.  For [some] subjects,
                problems in intimacy are manifest more in great
                sensitivity to injury and loss than in lack of
                intimacy and relatedness.  [Ad] "...The last salient
                dimension of impairment in the interpersonal realm
                relates to a certain mildly paranoid and disturbing
                streak in many of the subjects, which renders them
                very wary and cautious about involving themselves
                with others.  It is significant that all but one of
                the subjects had modest elevations on the MMPI paranoia
                scale relative to their other scores.  Such modest
                elevations mean that we are not dealing with blatant
                paranoid symptomology but rather over-sensitivity,
                defensiveness and fear of criticism and susceptibility
                to feeling pressured.  To summarize, while this is a
                heterogeneous group in terms of overt personality style,
                it can be said that most of its members share being
                rather unusual and very interesting.  They also share
                brighter than average intelligence and a certain rich-
                ness of inner life that can operate favorably in terms
                of creativity or disadvantageously to the extent that
                it can be overwhelming.  Shared underlying emotional
                factors include a degree of identity disturbance, some
                deficits in the interpersonal sphere, and generally
                mild paranoia phenomena (hypersensitivity, wariness,
                etc.)" (3)

<Continued in next message..>

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From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Rima Laibow (3)
Date: 20 Apr 91 07:43:00 GMT

<<<Continued from previous message>>>

        Her findings demonstrate a uniform lack of the significant
psychopathology which would be necessary to account for these experiences if
abduction experiences do represent the psychotic or delusional states
predicted by current theory.

        When the examiner was informed of the true reason for the selection of
the subjects for this evaluation (i.e., their shared belief that they had been
exposed to alien abductions), she wrote an addendum to the original report re-
examining the findings of the testing in the light of the new data.  In it she
states:
                "The first and most critical question is whether our
                subjects' reported experiences could be accounted
                for strictly on the basis of psychopathy, i.e., mental
                disorder.  The answer is a firm no.  In broad terms,
                if the reported abductions were confabulated fantasy
                productions, based on what we know about psychological
                disorders, they could only have come from pathological
                liars, paranoid schizophrenics, and severely disturbed
                and extraordinarily rare hysteroid characters subject
                to fugue states and/or multiple personality shifts...
                It is important to note that not one of the subjects,
                based on test data, falls into any of these categories.
                Therefore, while testing can do nothing to prove the
                veracity of the UFO abduction reports, one can conclude
                that the test findings are not inconsistent with the
                possibility that reported UFO abductions have, in fact,
                occurred.  In other words, there is no apparent
                psychological explanation for their reports." (4)

        2. CONCORDANCE OF REPORTED DATA:        The second point of
intriguing discrepancy follows from this surprising absence of evidence
of a common thread of severe and reality-distorting psychopathology to
account for the patient's bizarre assertions.  They claim that they have
been abducted, sometimes repeatedly over nearly the whole course of their
lives, by aliens who have communicated with them and carried out procedures
much like medical examinations.  Persons reporting these experiences are seen
to be psycho-dynamically varied.  They are also demographically varied.
Reports of this basic scenario, numbering in the hundreds, have now been
recorded.  Even though the reporters range from individuals as diverse as a
mestizo Brazilian farmer(5),an American corporate lawyer (6), and a Mid-
Western minister(7), there is a perplexing and intriguing concordance of
features in these reports.  Certain details of the scenarios repeat themselves
with disturbing regularity no matter what the educational, national, social,
experiential or other demographic characteristics of the reporter.  In the
production of dreams, reveries, poetry, fantasies and psychotic states, while
the general themes of concern may be identified easily between individuals,
the specific symbolization, concretion, abstraction and representation of
those themes is relatively indiosyncratic for each individual.  This of course
necessitates careful empathic and attentive listening on the clinician's part
to gather both the general flavor and specific meaning of the elements of the
fantasy state.  This careful listening often means that a personal symbolic
representational system can be unraveled and its contents can be rendered less
mysterious to the patient.  In the abduction scenarios however, both specific
details and themes repeat themselves with surprising regularity:  In general,
the appearance and modus operandi of the aliens, their effect and procedures,
their tools and interests, their crafts and physical features all tally from
report to report with a high rate of concordance. (8,9,10)  This intriguing
fact seems impervious to the socio-economic, educational, national, or
cultural background of the abductee.  Similarly, whether the individual has
had previous contact with the literature of abduction seems to make little
difference in this vein since the reports of individuals who can be shown to
have had no exposure to abduction literature also contains these common
features.  Skilled practitioners and investigators report in these cases that
they are convinced that each of these subjects was being wholly truthful in
his/her report.

        The concordance of both content and event in these reports makes
them unlike any other fantasy-generated material with which I am familiar.
Indeed, investigators like Hopkins and others claim they have intentionally
withheld dissemination of certain important, frequently reported aspects of
the abduction scenarios in order to provide a "check" on the material being
presented to them by individuals who may have had access to this literature
since abductees may have been influenced at either the conscious or the
unconscious level by it.  In these cases as well, the features which have
previously been published as well as those withheld are both produced by the
abductee (11).  In instances in which the patient has read some of the
abductee literature, this previously withheld material may be offered to the
investigator with a sense of personal invalidation, apology and embarrassment.
He often expresses concern that this information is less likely to be
believed than the other material with which he is already familiar. (12)

        Jung and others have written widely about the use of archetypes
and the collective awareness of themes and images which are asserted to
present themselves in a world-wide and multi-personal way.  The amount of
individual variation and creative latitude demonstrated within the closed
system of archetypes and collected creativity is vast.  Those who pose such
universals detect their presence in the complex and highly idiosyncratic
presentations and guises which they are given by the unconscious mind of the
patient and the artist.  This disguise is idiosyncratic, they hold, precisely
because a set of available images is being used to work and rework the
personal realities of the individual against the background of the collective.
But the abductee does not seem to be involved in the reworking of personal
mythologies against the canvas of the race's mythology.  The details and
contents of the scenarios seem, upon extensive investigation, to bear little
thematic relevance to the issues inherent in the life of the abductee.
Intensive follow up investigation frequently yields no thematic, archetypical,
primary process symbolic meaning to the shape or activities of the abductors
and the scenario of the abduction itself. Instead, therapeutic work in these
cases centers around the issues inherent in the powerlessness and
vulnerability of the individual even is this were not a prominent theme in his
life before the putative abduction.  In other words, the customary richness of
association and creativity found in the examination of dreams and other
fantasy material is lacking with regard to the scenario and presentation of
the aliens who abduct and manipulate the patient in the abduction story.

<Continued in next message..>

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                          Abduction Digest, Number 11

                           Thursday, April 25th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                 Rima Laibow (4)
                            Rima Laibow (Conclusion)
                                    Lebow.txt

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Rima Laibow (4)
Date: 20 Apr 91 07:44:00 GMT

<<<<Continued from previous message>>>>

        If the abduction material is indeed archetypal or fantasy generated in
nature, this is a new class of archetypes.  These archetypes demand rather
exact representation and mythic presentation since the activities and behavior
of the aliens is rather invariant within a narrow latitude regardless of the
other dream and fantasy themes of the patient.

        3. ABDUCTION SCENARIOS AND HYPNOSIS.    Members of both the lay and
professional communities frequently assume that material referring to UFO
abduction scenarios is retrieved under hypnosis.  Since it is generally
believed that people under hypnosis are open to the implantation of
suggestions through the overt or covert influence of the hypnotist it is
concluded that this material reproduces the hypnotists' expectations or
interests.  It is further concluded that since the hypnotist "put it there"
the abduction could not be accounted for as material which emerges solely from
the patient's end of dyad.

Thus, the abduction scenarios are commonly dismissed as merely representing
the production of desired material by compliant subjects. The abductees strong
sense of personal conviction that this really happened to him during the
session itself and upon recall of the session is similarly dismissed as an
artifact of the process by which the fantasies were generated.

        Several compelling factors mitigate against the facile dismissal of
data in this way.  Firstly, about 20% of these highly concordant abduction
scenarios are available spontaneously at the level of conscious awareness
prior to hypnosis.  (13,14)  These accounts may be enhanced or subjected to
further elaboration through the use of hypnosis or other recall enhancement
techniques, but in a significant number of people producing abduction
scenarios the recall is initially produced without recourse to such
techniques.  If their stories were substantially different from the concordant
abduction scenarios produced under regressive hypnosis, a different phenomenon
would be taking place.

       However, given the perplexing clinical presentation of similar stories
from dissimilar people who are uninformed about one another's experience, this
presents another highly interesting area of discrepancy.

        Hopkins has classified patterns of abduction recall into five
categories:

        Type 1.  patients consciously recall parts of the full abduction
scenario without hypnotic or other techniques designed to aid recall. The
emergence of this material may be delayed.

        Type 2.  patients recall the UFO sighting, surrounding circumstances
and/or aliens, but do not recall the abduction itself. Only a perceived gap in
time indicates any anomalous occurrence.

        Type 3.  patients recall a UFO and/or hominids but nothing else.
There is no sense of time lapse or dislocation.

        Type 4.  patients recall only a time lapse or dislocation.  No UFO
abduction scenario is recalled without the use of specific retrieval
techniques.

        Type 5.  patients recall noting relating to UFO or abduction
scenarios.  Instead they experience discrepant emotions ranging from uneasy
suspicions that "something happened to me" to intense, ego-dystonic fears of
specific locations, conditions or actions.  They may also exhibit unexplained
physical wounds and/or recurring dreams of abduction scenario content which
are not fixed in their experience as to place and time. (15)

        Examination of the transcripts of hypnotic sessions which yield
abduction material reveals that although subjects are sufficiently
suggestible to enter the trance state as directed by the therapist, they
resist having material "injected" into their account.  They customarily
refuse to be "lead" or distracted by the therapist's attempts to change
either the focus or content of their report.  The subject characteristically
insists upon correcting errors or distortions suggested or implied by the
hypnotist during the session.  Hence it is difficult to account for the
similarities and concordances of these scenarios through the mechanism of
suggestibility when these subjects so steadfastly refuse to be lead by
hypnotists.

        In fact, it is even more striking that while these patients feel the
material which they are producing both in and out of hypnosis as
experientially "real", nonetheless they frequently seek to discount or
explain away this bizarre and frightening material.  This remains true even
though sharing it regularly results in a significant remission of anxiety-
related symptoms and discomfort.  These abduction scenarios are so ego-alien
that they have frequently not shared the material with anyone at all or with
only a highly select group of trusted intimates. In the vast preponderance of
cases patients are reluctant to allow themselves to be publicly identified as
having had these experiences since the perceive that the abduction scenario is
so highly anomalous that they expect to experience ridicule and repudiation if
they become associated with it publicly.  It therefore functions like a guilty
secret in the way that rape has (and, unfortunately still does in some cases).

<Concluded in next message..>

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Rima Laibow (Conclusion)
Date: 20 Apr 91 07:45:00 GMT

<<<<<Continued from previous message>>>>>

        After the material is produced and explored, these subjects often
experience a marked degree of relief.  This is true with reference both to
previously identified symptomatic behaviors and other anxiety manifestations
not noted on initial assessment.  These other symptoms may remit after
enhanced recall of the scenario and its details takes place.  It is
interesting to note that while the scenarios may contain a good deal of highly
traumatic material specifically related to reproductive functioning, these
episodes are nearly uniformly free of subjective erotic charge when either the
manifest or latent contents are examined.

        4.  POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER (PTSD) IN THE ABSENCE OF
EXTERNAL TRAUMA:        PTSD was first described in the content of battle
fatigue (16).  Although it may present in a wide variety of clinical guises
(17) PTSD is currently understood as a disorder which occurs in the context of
intolerable externally induced trauma which floods the victim with anxiety
and/or depression when his overwhelmed and paralyzed ego defenses prove
inadequate to the task of organizing unbearably stressful events.  In the
service of the patient's urgent attempt to still the tides of disorganizing
anxiety, fear or guilt<18> which accompany the emergence of cognitive, sensory
or emotional recall of these traumatic events, the trauma itself may be
either partly or completely unavailable to conscious recall. <19>...Both
physical and psychological responses to the trauma are profound and pervasive.
PTSD follows overwhelming real-life trauma and is not known to present as a
sequel to internally generated fantasy states.<20>

        This fourth area of discrepancy between predicted and observed data is
perhaps the most striking and challenging. Patients who produce alien
abduction material in the absence of psycopathology severe enough to account
for it often show the clinical picture of PTSD. This is remarkable when one
considers that it is possible that no traumatic event occured except that
rooted only in fantasy.  These trauma are, in large measure, split off, denied
and repressed as they are in other occurrences of PTSD.

        As discussed above, these scenarios frequently appear in individuals
who are otherwise free of any indication of significant emotional and
psychological instability or pre-existing severe psycopathology. On careful
clinical assessment, these memories do not appear to fill the intrapsychic
niches usually occupied by psychotic or psycho-neurotic formulations. The
abduction scenarios do not encapsulate or ward off unacceptable impulses, they
do not define <or defend against> split off affects, they are not used either
to stabilize or to divert current or archaic patterns of behavior nor do they
provide secondary gain or manipulative control for the individual.

        Instead, this material, experienced by the patient as unwelcome and
totally ego-dystonic, seems quite consistently to be woven into the fabric of
the patient's internal life only in terms of his reactive response to the
stress inherent in these experiences and the contents of the repressed
material related to the stressful memories.  But the extent of this secondary
response can be extensive.  It should be noted that PTSD has not previously
been thought to occur following trauma which has been generated solely by
internally states.  If abduction scenarios are in fact fantasies, then our
understanding of PTSD need to be suitably broadened to account for this
heretofore unexpected correlation.

        In addition, there are significant clinical implications to the
finding of abduction scenario material in a patient who shows PTSD but is
otherwise free of significant psychopathology.  Since abduction scenario
material presents several crucial areas of anomaly and discrepancy between
what is known and that which is observed.  It is very important for the
therapist to refrain from the comfortable (for the therapist, at least)
description of psychotic functioning to the patient who produces this material
until such disturbance is, in fact, demonstrated and corroborated by the
presence of other signs beside the UFO-related material.  It is imperative for
the therapist to adopt a non-judgemental stance.  He can attend to the
distress of the patient without attempting to confirm or deny possibilities
which are outside the specific area of his expertise.  The clinician should
adopt as his therapeutic priority the alleviation of the PTSD symptomology
through the use of appropriate and acceptable methods specific to the
treatment of PTSD.  In addition, the therapist must remember that while he may
have strong convictions pro or con the abduction actually having occurred, it
is not within either his capability or expertise to make such a judgement with
total certainty.  Furthermore, as the clinical psychologist who evaluated the
nine abductees pointed out in her addendum, the sophistication of the
psychotherapies has not advanced to the point at which this determination can
be made on the basis of currently available information (21), although the
treatment of post traumatic symptomology is currently understood.  Hence, it
is important for the therapist to retain the same non-judgemental and helpful
stance necessary to the successful treatment of any other traumatic insult.
When a therapist labels material as either unacceptable or insane, the
burden of the patient is increased.  If the therapist is reacting out of
prejudices which reflect his own closely-held beliefs rather than his
complete certainty, he unfairly increases the distress of the patient.

        SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS:        Although it has long been the
"common wisdom" of both the professional and lay communities that anyone
claiming to be the victim of abduction by UFO occupants must be seriously
disturbed, thoroughly deluded or a liar, careful examination of both the
reports and their reports calls this assumption into question. Clinical and
psychometric investigation of abductees reveals four areas of discrepancy
between the expected data and the observable phenomena and suggests further
investigation.  These discrepant areas are:

        1. ABSENCE OF PSYCHOPATHOLOGY   An unexpected absence of severe
psychopathology coupled with the high level of functioning found in many
abductees is a perplexing and surprising finding. Psychometric evaluation
of nine abductees revealed a notable heterogeneity of psychological and
psychometric characteristics.  The major area of homogeneity was in the
absence of significant psychopathology.  Rather than consulting a subset
of the severely disturbed and psychotic population, there is clinical
evidence that at least some abductees are high functioning, healthy

END
PARANET FILE NAME: LAIBOW.TXT

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Lebow.txt
Date: 21 Apr 91 08:57:00 GMT


Mike, at first reading, Lebow.txt seems indicate an approach to
studying abductees that is far from "amateurish".  It
*may* just be putting some respectable psychiatric gloss on a
less-than-systematic approach to the problem, but it does seem
pretty thorough.

I'll study it more.

Best,
  Clark


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 12

                              Monday, May 6th 1991

Today's Topics:

                               Continuum Continues
                              Call for Submissions
                         Abduction Investigation Update
                       Abduction Investigation Update (2)
                       Abduction Investigation Update (3)
                                 Lydia addendum

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Continuum Continues
Date: 30 Apr 91 23:07:00 GMT




             ***   P a r a N e t   C O N T I N U U M   ***

                            Continues ...



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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Call for Submissions
Date: 30 Apr 91 23:12:00 GMT



             ***   P a r a N e t   C O N T I N U U M   ***


               C A L L   F O R   S U B M I S S I O N S



CONTINUUM is back!

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                             May 15, 1991

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From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Abduction Investigation Update
Date: 2 May 91 01:07:00 GMT

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FILE UPDATE: 31 March 1991

Subject Name:   "Lydia" ____ (nee _____; Sometimes goes by maiden name)
Age:            45
Marital Status: Married 8 years. No children.
                Husband "Lance" is an engineer.
Height:         Approx. 6'
Education:      Teaching degrees in English and Geology.
Employment:     Educator, _______ School District.

EXPERIENCE SUMMARY:

This subject approached me in November of 1990, while at a State of
Arizona MUFON Conference. She informed me that she believed herself to
be an abductee, and that she had approached several others in the state
about getting some help, notably Hal Starr and Ed Beibel. She claims she
did not get much satisfaction from them, and was only looking for
someone to listen to her story and figure out what she should do.

Later that week, my wife and I met with Lydia at a Village Inn in Mesa,
and spoke with her for a period of about 2 hours, during which time she
related her various experiences in some detail. She had typed up some
info sheets on each of her major experiences, and had done some crude
renderings of various entities and situations. At the end of the
meeting, I suggested hypnosis and Lydia readily agreed.

Lydia's situation includes several consciously recalled incidents, the most
recent of which took place in April of 1990. This was the first incident in
which she actually recalls seeing entities, and thus it was the one that
triggered her desire for help. Other _consciously recalled_ incidents date
back to age 12 or 13, with several in her mid- to late-20's. It was apparent
to me from our meeting that Lydia's experience also involved a multitude of
buried memories, which seemed to be gnawing at her subconscious mind, and so
hypnosis was recommended both as a cathartic and as a method of uncovering
some elements of possible evidential value.

To date Lydia has had four hypnosis sessions with ______________, a therapy
practitioner in Mesa, AZ. I have attended three of those sessions. The first
session, in December of 1990, concentrated on her April, 1990 experience, of
which she consciously remembered only a brief scene on an "examination" table,
surrounded by several entities. She stated before hypnosis that the scene was
"fuzzy" and "slightly out of focus." The hypnosis session succeeded in
dredging up her recall of the events just prior to the "examination," in which
she recalled seeing a thin shaft of light, like a focused beam, emanating from
an air conditioning vent near the ceiling of her bedroom. During her hypnotic
recall of this segment of the experience, Lydia became quite agitated and
fearful, strongly giving the impression that she was perceiving these events
consciously for the first time.

The most interesting feature of this regression was Lydia's recollection of
reaching for her glasses on the nightstand next to her bed (she is
nearsighted) but being unsuccessful in getting to them before the entities
reached her. This is consistent with her blurred visual recall of subsequent
events, and is notable in that it was only under hypnosis that she realized
she did not have her glasses on.

At this point, Lydia recalled "floating" up through the night sky towards an
object she described as bell-shaped. She then has a hazy memory of seeing
things through a close "mesh", as if a fencing mask had been placed over her
face. Then she recalls waking up to find herself on a smooth-surfaced
examining table. Though somewhat groggy, she was able to see her bare feet,
and the fringe of her nightgown. She also saw an entity closely examining her
thoracic area, so closely that his head was a mere inch or two from her chest
and inches from her face.

Possibly relevant to this occurence is the fact that Lydia reportedly had
undergone radiography a month or two prior to this episode, in which it was
discovered that she had an unusual "spot" on one of her lungs. She describes
it as a honeycomb structure, "like you would see if you took a handful of
straws and pressed them against my lung and spit black ink through them."
Subsequent X-rays, the most recent being in January of 1991, have shown the
spot to be unchanged. Her doctors, she says, are not overly concerned at this
point, but they are mystified as to the nature of the spot. Further
investigation is planned in this area.

Lydia recalls a brief conversation with the entities, who told her they were
doing a study on "the effects of freedom." She recalls thinking that this made
sense, in light of world events, until they told her that they intended to set
a bunch of chickens free in the forest to see how they reacted to their
newfound freedom. She says that it took a couple of seconds for her to realize
that this made no sense at all ("My grandmother had a farm, I know what the
chickens would do, they'd run right back to their cages!") but she attributes
the delay to her somewhat groggy state.

>From the beginning, Lydia realized that the entities were not communicating
verbally, but that she was picking up their thoughts. She related this in a
rather surprised tone, and did not use the word "telepathy" or anything
similar. She said that she believed that she could "hit a mental mute button"
and be able to shield them from her thoughts. She thought to herself
(supposedly) that she needed to go to the bathroom. The entity's expression
immediately changed to one that approximated surprise (in her drawing she
depicts it with its mouth rounded in an "O") and in a instant, she was back in
her bedroom.

<Continued in next message..>

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From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Abduction Investigation Update (2)
Date: 2 May 91 01:08:00 GMT

<<Continued from previous message>>

Most of the above incident, from waking up on the examining table, was
recalled consciously prior to hypnosis, but the session served to clarify the
visual images of the entities, and at one point Lydia began crying as she
seemed to fully confront their unpleasant and totally alien appearance.

Overall, the session was obviously a cathartic experience for Lydia, and she
seemed to have had a great weight lifted off her shoulders. She later claimed
to have been able to shed a few pounds, her weight problem having been of great
concern to her in recent years.

The second session, held in December of 1990, succeeded in extracting some
images from her experience at age 12, though it still remains largely shrouded
in the mists of her subconscious mind. The most significant aspect of this
event was Lydia's recollection of being on board a craft and seeing another
human female being carried on board, unconscious, by one of the entities. She
was unable to see the woman's face, but described her as having medium length,
light brown-to-blonde hair.

Much of the rest of this session was devoted to what might be a separate
episode, time frame uncertain, in which Lydia recalls looking out a curved
panel of windows and seeing clouds going by at eye level. In this episode she
recalls an entity standing at a counter, writing. After the session she was
able
to reconstruct three of the unrecognizable symbols she saw on the entity's
paper. These exoglyphs have been forwarded to CUFOS, Dave Jacobs, and Budd
Hopkins for comparison with other exemplars. A password-protected graphic
computer file containing these symbols also exists in the possession of the
director of ParaNet, who has agreed not to release it until further
consultation with other experts.

The third and fourth sessions brought out an even earlier episode, which Lydia
claims had to have occurred around July of 1954, at age 7. None of this
episode was recalled consciously prior to hypnosis.

The subject recounted standing across the street from her own house near
Valdosta, GA, looking up into the daytime sky, and feeling a painful pressure
in the area of her cheekbones, as if someone were "pulling up" on her face.
She seemed to re-experience this pain during both hypnotic sessions, and at
times had to be relieved of it through strong suggestion by _______.

At this point she recalls being "lifted up" into the sky, towards a hovering
disk-shaped craft. She described the sensation of thrusting through the floor
of the craft, where she says she felt like a small "blob" on the floor, like a
jellyfish. She felt she was not in a physical body, and could not feel her
arms, legs, face, etc. Two entities were standing over her. One said, "This is
___-__", exaggerating the syllables. She then felt her arms and legs "pop
out", as if from a central corpus. One of the entities placed a plain white
vestment, like a dress, over her head. She was escorted through the "craft,"
which she described as having curved walls with translucent white panels, not
unlike the devices doctors use to place x-rays on for viewing.

Lydia was led through several rooms, the first of which featured a large pool
containing a highly agitated clear liquid. She said it looked like water, but
she wasn't sure. During the fourth session, she recalled a feeling of cold in
her fingers while in this area. The entity led her through the room rather
quickly, and as they were leaving, Lydia claims to have gotten the impression
of the word, "propulsion" from the entity. She remembers wondering (at age 7)
what the word meant.

In the next room Lydia was asked if she could write her name ("of COURSE I can
write my name!" she responded, in precocious fashion), and proceeded to
oblige. Details of this particular segment have yet to be explored more fully.

There were several more rooms on the tour, including one that contained
several shelves of what appeared to be children's toys. On one shelf were some
small dolls with different types of clothing. Below that were some toys of a
more boyish nature, like toy trucks or motorcycles. Lydia recalls that the
entity seemed to expect her to be excited about the dolls, when in fact she
was never one for playing with dolls as a child. He seemed to register
disappointment when she said something like, "Yes - those are dolls", in an
offhand manner.

After a few more rooms, Lydia's next recollection was of being placed in a
small, dark "closet", and having the distinct feeling of her form changing to
a "cube"-like structure. In the next instant, she was back across the street
from her house.

There are various other elements to Lydia's experiences, including possible
screen memories (she has been spooked at the appearance of a praying mantis at
least twice), psi episodes, and a UFO sighting in March of 1988 while with her
husband. These need to be explored in more depth, both hypnotically and
consciously.

WITNESS BACKGROUND:

The most significant factor in Lydia's background is the fact that she has had
some exposure to the abduction phenomenon prior to her April experience,
through the reading of "Communion" and "Intruders". However, I would judge
this exposure to be at best peripheral and do not feel the UFO subject was a
major interest of hers at any time prior to last year. Certainly by itself it
is no cause for summary dismissal of the case, as it will naturally become
more and more difficult in this day and age to find "virgin" abduction
percipients.

<Continued in next message..>>

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From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Abduction Investigation Update (3)
Date: 2 May 91 01:09:00 GMT

<<<Continued from previous message>>>

One of the first questions I asked Lydia regarded her childhood and the
possibility of any abuse, neglect, or sexual trauma. She replied in the
negative, claiming she had had a more or less normal childhood, and came from
a loving family.

Lydia is well-educated and widely read, with a strong interest in ancient
Greco-Roman culture, architecture and mythology. She and her husband maintain
an extensive library that takes up an entire wall of their garage. Titles
included works by Nietzche and Michener, several science fiction anthologies,
spy novels, and science texts on ballistic physics, chemistry, astronomy, and
geology. She has several ancient Greek artifacts in her den, which she shows
off proudly and with not a small sense of wonder at the accomplishments of the
ancients. She has travelled to Greece, and recalls that one of her most deeply
spiritual and introspective moments was sitting among the ruins of the
Parthenon, contemplating the wonders of the past.

Her relationship with her husband Lance is quite interesting. Lance is a
ballistics engineer at McDonnell-Douglas in Mesa, and an avid amateur
astronomer. They have been married 8 years, and he is several years her
senior. He has, from the beginning, indicated his skepticism on the subject
and is fairly reticent to even discuss the matter. However, this does not seem
to have affected their relationship in the slightest. They seem close and
loving, yet mutually independent. Both possess a good sense of humor. And both
are a bundle of ironies. Ever the hard-nosed, skeptical engineer, Lance is yet
a devout Lutheran. And Lydia, with her strange tale of small grey kidnappers,
is an avowed secular humanist. Yet theirs is a relaxed and affable
relationship in which they seem to have long ago come to terms with their
differences and even to have shrugged them off. Lydia occasionally tries to
nudge Lance into looking at her drawings and discussing the matter openly, but
is not overly put off by his hesitancy. "He'll come around some day," she
says.

Lydia and Lance do share an interest in recreational flying, and both have
pilots licenses. It was this mutual interest, in fact, that brought them
together, according to Lydia.

Recently, Lance purchased a subscription to The Skeptical Inquirer, the
quarterly publication of CSICOP. It is not clear whether he was prompted to do
so by a deep-seated discomfort with his wife's claimed experience. Lydia read
the first issue and called it well-written and authoritative. She has often
expressed her distaste for the "woo-woos," the New Age and spiritual side of
the UFO phenomenon. She in fact rejected my first choice for hypnosis
therapist on the basis of his brochure, which actually advertised for
abduction percipients and contained a drawing of a greylien. She thought he
would be "too flaky."

The couple's relationship is interesting to me for another reason. I had heard
that female abductees, especially, tend to be "clingy", and seemingly in
search of ever greater attention to their plight. They seem to attach
themselves to their abduction researcher, hoping for some kind of final
resolution to their trauma. I have often wondered if this longing for
attention is not a personality characteristic that might serve as a causal
basis for the experience itself. Meeting Lydia and Lance has dissuaded me from
this, at least for the moment. While Lydia was at first "desperate" in her
search for someone who would listen, and very plaintive in her request that I
at least give her case a hearing, she does not seem overly "clingy", either
with me OR with her husband. True, she does maintain a strong interest in her
case and in the possibility that she may be helping to advance research in
this area by cooperating fully with my investigation as well as with that of
CUFOS. But she has not been a 3AM caller, to my great relief. And her patience
with her husband is also indicative of an inner confidence and a sense of
independence, perhaps even a pioneering, "I'll-go-it-alone-if-I-have-to"
spirit.

EVALUATION:

My overall impression of her psyche is that she is basically stable, very
personable, with no sign of neurosis. She does have a tendency to speak in a
nervous, staccato, rambling manner, but patience is always rewarded with a
cohesive final story. These impressions are for the most part confirmed by the
results of her MMPI scores, which show her to be well within normal range on
all scales.

FUTURE RESEARCH:

Further hypnotic sessions are planned, in which we hope to extract the details
of the "gaps" in her abduction memories. Research will also be done on the
markings on her lung.

Furthermore, a meeting with the head of the local skeptics organization is
planned. This is in keeping with my belief that reasonable, responsible
skeptics should be brought into the loop, in order to afford them the
opportunity to get their hands dirty on the nitty-gritty of the subject,
something that is surprisingly lacking among skeptics. It is also hoped that
the feedback will provide a much-needed "reality check", and perhaps open up
potential new areas of reseach that may be obscured by a deep-seated
"will-to-believe" on the part of this researcher.

Further updates to this file will be made at least quarterly.

Jim Speiser 31 March 1991

END
PARANET FILE NAME: LYDIA331.TXT

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Lydia addendum
Date: 2 May 91 16:27:00 GMT


A couple of clarifications on that file are in order. First, by "crude
renderings", I mean not terribly detailed - Lydia is a pretty good sketch
artist, I just couldn't think of a synonym for "lacking in finer details."
Second, the manner of her speech I would describe as "animated, sometimes
rapid-fire." This is especially noticeable when she is attempting to describe
images from her experience. One gets the impression she is bending over
backwards to try to describe the indescribable, using words that don't exist,
and this sometimes causes her to get flustered.

Jim

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                          Abduction Digest, Number 13

                            Saturday, May 25th 1991

Today's Topics:

                              Re: Tesla & Tau Ceti
                          Re: Rima Laibow (Conclusion)
                          Re: Rima Laibow (Conclusion)
                          Re: Rima Laibow (Conclusion)

--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Tesla & Tau Ceti
Date: 22 May 91 03:41:53 GMT

From: James Roger Black <[e-mail]>

Why all the interest in Tau Ceti?

Tau Ceti is one of the four nearby stars most commonly cited as possible
homes for extraterrestrial life:

  Name                    Spectra           Distance        Comments
  ----                    -------           --------        --------
  Epsilon Eridani         K2                10.76 ly
  61 Cygni                K5/K7/??          11.08 ly        triple star
  Epsilon Indi            K5                11.44 ly
  Tau Ceti                G8                11.87 ly

These are the only star systems within a 16-light-year radius of earth
that are considered likely to have habitable planets.  The others are
thought to be either too unstable gravitationally to have planets at
all, or are too hot, too cold, too young, too old, too whatever to
provide a stable environment for life to develop and to survive long
enough for it to achieve intelligence.  Tau Ceti is considered the best
candidate, since it is the most like our own sun.

Of course, even 'uninhabitable' planets could be colonized by high-tech
immigrants from somewhere else; and in any case the parameters of
'official' opinion in this area change year by year.  For example, it
was long thought impossible for multiple-star systems such as Alpha
Centauri and 61 Cygni to have stable planetary orbits within the
habitable zones, but computer simulations have questioned that
conclusion.

One reason these four are attractive is that they all lie approximately
11 light years from earth.  Apparently the first major UFO waves took
place some 22-24 years after the first high-power radio transmissions
from earth which could have been detected at interstellar distances.
Such transmissions, moving at the speed of light, would have taken
about 11 years to reach them, and spacecraft moving at near-light speed
would have taken not much more than that to return here--hence the 22-24
year time frame.

Of course, that's assuming that 'they' are in fact extra-terrestrials,
which is far from proven.  Jacques Vallee, Gordon Creighton, and others
have suggested that the so-called 'aliens' are in fact as closely bound
to this planet as we are, in which case Tau Ceti is utterly
irrelevant.

Or, maybe, both theories are right ...




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Paul Carr)
Subject: Re: Rima Laibow (Conclusion)
Date: 19 May 91 20:19:00 GMT

One very interesting aspect of the Rima Laibow paper is that
it describes a semi-repeatable experiment - Having a psychiatrist
test several abductess, attempting to deduce if they have anything in
common.  A control group of non-abductees (or perhaps several such
groups) would be needed to establish the validity of the results.
Let CSICOP's Psychologists (Robert A. Baker, Irving Biederman,
Susan Blackmore, Milton Rosenberg, and B.F. Skinner) pick the
psychiatrists to perform the examinations.
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Rima Laibow (Conclusion)
Date: 20 May 91 06:48:00 GMT

Paul:

On the subject of Robert Baker, are you aware of a book of his entitled
"They Call It Hypnosis"? (presumably Prometheus). I have been told that in
it he speaks of a study of 300 abductees, in which it was discovered that a
large majority of them, on the order of 80-90%, suffered from Fantasy-Prone
Personality. I'm asking because this information not only came as a shock to
me, but to several other "professionals" I've conversed with. One of them
assured me that the only people who have ever worked with such a large group
were Budd Hopkins and, indirectly, Eddie Bullard. If you, or anyone
watching, is aware of this book or the aforementioned study, please speak
up. Abductees everywhere are waiting with baited breath!

Jim

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From: [e-mail] (Paul Carr)
Subject: Re: Rima Laibow (Conclusion)
Date: 21 May 91 19:11:00 GMT

Did Dr. Baker work with a control group?  And where did he get 300
abductees?  Put an ad in the National Enquirer?
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 14

                            Thursday, June 6th 1991

Today's Topics:

                          Re: Rima Laibow (Conclusion)
                                       hi!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Rima Laibow (Conclusion)
Date: 22 May 91 06:52:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <05-21-91 12:11> Paul Carr wrote:

->Did Dr. Baker work with a control group?

Unknown.

>  And where did he
->get 300
->abductees?  Put an ad in the National Enquirer?

 Again, unknown. That's why I'm asking!

Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Joseph Derosa)
Subject: hi!
Date: 30 May 91 21:09:00 GMT

Hello there clark. I have been trying to get onto this BBS for a while,
but have had limited time during the day.  So far, it has been pretty
neat.  Had a little problem with constantly re-reading the same
messages, but I think that I am over that now.
All in all, a very interesting bunch of messages to read.  Of course I
feel as if I have come upon a conversation in the middle, but it is
still interesting.
One interesting note for you: after my dinner with the abductee two
months ago, I began noticing (and remembering) some of the same
symptoms.  I'm not convinced - I've either been abducted myself, or
else
I've got LYME Disease from the yard. %3}
Let me know how everything is going, and give me a call.
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 15

                            Thursday, June 20th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                ABDUCTION PROFILE
                                ABDUCTION PROFILE
                                ABDUCTION PROFILE

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: ABDUCTION PROFILE
Date: 19 Jun 91 23:10:00 GMT

TO ALL PARANET(sm) READERS:

The following is a brief biographical profile of a possible
abduction case I have been investigating. It was composed by the
percipient. Please post your opinions and/or questions. (sw)
_________________________________________________________________
*** NOTE ***  Personal names have been deleted
_________________________________________________________________
FAMILY HISTORY:

Percipient: Female, age 35, (Name Deleted) born 2/9/56 in Newport
Beach,
CA - during a sizable earthquake.

Mother: (Name Deleted) Born 7/29/28 (deceased 11/14/82). Of English
and Creek Indian (Muskogee Nation) ancestry (though not verifiable;
suspect mother's father bought ancestry papers to cover Indian
roots). History of diabetes, heart disease, cancer in family. Died
from complications of diabetes. Was an educator, painter, and
numerologist.

Father: (Name Deleted) Born 12/9/09. Still living - residing in
nursing home, suffering from advanced Parkinson's disease. Of
Norwegian ancestry, first person in his family to marry out of his
nationality in 1000 years. History of diabetes, and neurological
diseases in family. Was a painter, educator and theosophist.

Siblings: Half sister from father's previous marriage - born
1/18/46
Half brother from father's previous marriage - born 6/6/47
Brother - born 11/14/58
Sister - born 2/10/60
Sister - born 8/21/64; deceased - died from neuroblastoma (Wilm's
Tumor)
_________________________________________________________________
MEDICAL HISTORY:

1) Complications from chicken pox at 6 months, went to lungs;
caused weak lungs - later developing into respiratory condition.
Hospitalized several times as a child with bronchial pneumonia.
2) Menses at age 10
3) Scarlet fever at age 12
4) Hospitalized with mysterious abdominal distension and pain at
age 16
5) Mysterious bleeding (bled for a month) at age 18
6) "Hysterical" episode at age 19. Found outside at night. Thought
a man was trying to cut out my baby (wasn't pregnant).
Hospitalized, given elavil and tranxene.
7) Pelvic inflammatory disease at age 20
8) Persistent allergies at all ages
9) Chronic nose bleeds and bleeding from ears (hemorrhaged both
eardrums at age 16).
10) Broken back at age 23
11) Unexplained tumors at age 23
12) Hospitalizes for mysterious tumors, abdominal distension and
pain, unusual blood count - doctors thought I had cancer twice that
year - age 24
13) Malaria at age 25
14) Recurring tumors at age 26
15) Pelvic inflammatory disease twice at age 27. Miscarriage.
16) Diagnosed with Candida albicans and Hypothyroidism at age 29.
17) Miscarriage at age 32
18) Diagnosed with diabetes at age 33
19) Complete hysterectomy at age 34
CONTINUED IN NEXT MESSAGE...
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: ABDUCTION PROFILE
Date: 19 Jun 91 23:12:00 GMT

 ...CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS MESSAGE
_______________________________________________________________
SEXUAL ABUSE:
1) Age 5: Molested by a neighbor boy.
2) Age 9: Molested by an elderly man who was a neighbor.
3) Age 11: Molested by a son of friends of the family.
4) Age 14: Forced seduction by a psychologist - was able to escape.
5) Age 22: Raped, drugged and held captive for 3 days by a
psychiatrist. Was not his patient. Didn't report it.
_________________________________________________________________
EXPERIENCES:

1) Night terror dreams since infancy
2) Age 3: Began playing with "light beings". Said that they were
"Jesus and his friends". Beings that emanated great amounts of
light (as a child, equated them with Italian holy pictures). My
parents let me roam on our property, unsupervised for hours.
3) Age 3: Became extremely afraid in the evening hours. Would
refuse to go to bed because I felt that there were people outside
my window waiting to take me away. I began bringing large cardboard
boxes into my room, so that I could hide from them. Sometimes the
fear would extend into the daylight hours. One day, I became lost
because I crawled into the crawlspace of our large two story
farmhouse, to escape "them". My parents were frantic! My father
finally rescued me from the bowels of the house, after a great
amount of the day had passed.
4) Age 4: Began awaking at night expecting to find spiders in my
bed. I became transfixed by them - to the point that my father
found me playing in a black widow's nest.
5) Age 6: Declared to an entire family gathering of 300, that I
would never have children. The same night, I saw a large ball of
light streak across the sky. My parents also saw it. They said:
"Never mind, it must be Santa Claus".
6) Age 8: Saw a large "angel" floating at eye level with me (I
slept on the top bunk of a bunk-bed) in the early morning hours.
I bound out of bed to tell my mother that St. Michael had just
visited me. She humored me...
7) Age 11: I was playing in a deserted farmhouse in Tennessee, with
a girlfriend - when we both suddenly realized we were in the middle
of a huge field of yellow flowers. It was strange. We hadn't
noticed it before (we had been playing for quite some time - and
the farmhouse had no doors or windows, so visually, it would be
difficult to miss). We became almost "drugged" with the discovery
and I said: "Every time I'm sad, I'll remember this field, for as
long as I live".
8) From 1976 to 1980, I did a lot of travelling throughout Northern
New Mexico. Every time I passed through Abique, Chama, or Questa
areas, I would feel extremely uncomfortable. I was strangely shaken
by these places, and every time I returned home I would turn on the
radio and hear reports of cattle mutilations in those same places,
at the same times...
9) Middle of October, 1980: I returned home late, after spending an
evening with friends (I had one drink and a puff on a joint, much
earlier, with little or no effect). I put my key in the lock and
was stunned by a powerful light. I looked to my right and saw an
immense ship, that covered my entire field of vision. I got a
sudden, but profound look at it! The next thing I remember is being
crouched in the corner of my portal, completely naked (but oddly
warm). I looked up to see all my clothes neatly folded and stacked
by the door, and the key still in the lock. I quickly gathered my
things, went inside, and noticed the clock. I was shocked to
discover 6 missing hours. I slipped into bed. The next thing I
remember was a deep voice in my head saying: "We are all ONE". The
CONTINUED IN NEXT MESSAGE...
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: ABDUCTION PROFILE
Date: 19 Jun 91 23:13:00 GMT

 ...CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS MESSAGE

next morning I told a couple of friends. They didn't believe me,
but begged me not to report it. We turned on the radio, just as the
disc jockey was announcing that there were 8 sightings of a UFO the
night before. I remained silent.
10) June 1986: My husband and I were caught in a large fog bank in
Arkansas. Upon emerging from it (we were driving a pick-up truck
and hauling a utility trailer), we saw a large day-glow green ball
fly across the sky, landing in a clump of trees to our right. The
next thing we remember is a coyote staring at us from the road,
with day-glow green eyes - the exact color of the flying ball. We
were not wearing watches and the truck did not have a clock. We
were very shaken, and ended up driving all night, to get the hell
out of Arkansas!
11) Santa Fe, NM, September 1988: Watching television one evening
when out of the corner of my eye, I saw a large, bright, purple
ball streak across the sky. Curious, I stood to catch a better look
at it. I saw it land beside the prison (a few miles away as the
crow flies). When it landed, it illuminated the entire sky for
about 2 seconds. Later that night, I bolted to a sitting position,
in bed. I felt that something was wrong with the house - I jumped
out of bed to discover that the front door was wide open. When I
awoke, my pillow case had blood on it. Both my husband and I were
having a lot of nosebleeds at that time. My ears were also bleeding
and I had strange marks on my body that I went to the doctor about.
She's ruled out fungus - she didn't know what it was. It was a
triangle, in the middle of a circle.
12) Grand Junction, CO, August 1989: I awoke in my motel room (we
were on holiday) to find two beings on top of the table, directly
in front of me. I pinched myself to make sure that I was awake.
Indeed I was! I walked over to them. I reached up to touch one of
them. The next thing I remember I was lying in bed, in the morning.
13) Newport, OR, Sunday, 12:30 A.M. - 3:24 A.M., 11/18/90: I was
watching Saturday Night Live. Paul Simon was on, I noticed the
time. I was alert and very much awake, but all of a sudden I was in
a dream with a friend and two men in black suits, escorting us to
a large silver disc. The next thing I remember was sitting back on
my couch, watching a show on UFOs.
14) Newport, OR, Saturday, 2 A.M. - 2:51 A.M., 12/1/90: I was just
getting into bed, when I noticed a strange, bright green line,
glowing above the curtains in the bedroom. I stood up and walked
over to it to investigate. I felt a "presence" in back of me. I
turned around and saw in the hallway mirror, a shadow about 3 feet
tall and whitish. I made a bolt, trying to catch it. The next thing
I know, I'm sitting up in bed looking at the clock.
_________________________________________________________________
COMMENTS:


After all these years of strange occurrences, my curiosity is
keener than ever, I've gone through stages of denial and complete
doubt. I've mentally investigated many possibilities that might be
causing such happenings - but, I am constantly haunted by dreams,
curious feelings (on all levels) and strange marks on my body - not
to mention chronic ailments of unknown origin. I'm not only
concerned about my experiences and their ramifications, but my
husbands role and safety through all this. I have been drug and
alcohol free for almost 8 years, and don't partake in caffeine or
tobacco either. My husband is equally strict with himself.
                     <END OF MESSAGE>
<<<<I (sw) welcome your comments and questions on this case.>>>>
                     Sheldon Wernikoff
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Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



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                          Abduction Digest, Number 16

                             Monday, July 8th 1991

Today's Topics:

                               Posting Guidelines
                               **** Warning *****

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Doug Rogers)
Subject: Posting Guidelines
Date: 28 Jun 91 01:58:52 GMT


New readers are always joining Paranet.

For their benefit, allow me to review the rules of posting which we ask
all our users to adopt:


                   ******* PARANET ECHO POLICIES ********

The following are guidelines  for the operation of the Paranet Echos on
member boards. Please take a moment to read (and understand) these
policies. If we'll adopt these attitudes, we'll have a more polite,
effective network.

1. No anonymous messages may be posted on the network.   Some Paranet BBS's
   allow users to use "handles", and  USENET  users  have no opportunity to
   place their names in the "From" field. If a user uses a handle, then all
   posts to  Paranet  Echos must be signed at the  end of the message using
   the user's REAL NAME. In  the  case  of  USENET  posts, it would help to
   place the  ADDRESSEE's REAL NAME in the subject field. It is the respon-
   sibility of the Sysop of each Paranet Node to enforce this  requirement,
   either  by  reviewing  all  messages  before  release, or by disallowing
   Paranet access to users using handles.

2. Personal Attacks  are *NOT* allowed in the Net. In any echo dealing with
   issues as emotional as those with which we deal it is a matter of course
   that  the validity of testimony on the part of certain individuals  will
   be  called into question.  It is important,  however,  to remember  that
   *ALL* parties are to be treated with respect.  If you wish to question a
   person's validity, state your reservations AS YOUR OPINION. For example:
   "John  Doe  is  a totally unreliable witness"  could leave  you  legally
   vulnerable.  "I BELIEVE John Doe to be a totally unreliable witness"  is
   much better,  especially if you can add "because...".  Please be careful
   how  you  judge  the  parties  involved,  and  attempt  to  defend  your
   contentions.

3. Any user who is found to have knowingly and deliberately posted false or
   misleading  information  regarding  the  activities of the United States
   Government,  its intelligence  agencies and/or operatives,  with respect
   to the investigation of UFOs or other related matters,  will  be  locked
   out  of  the  network  immediately   and  permanently,  and  their  name
   circulated to other UFO investigatory groups.

3.1 Since  Paranet  echos are exported to a number of countries  around the
   world, it should be noted that  Federal Law  prohibits the revelation of
   "National Secrets" to "Foreign Governments".   For this reason,  we must
   insist that material which might violate the National Secrets Act not be
   posted in the echos. All sensitive material believed to be of legitimate
   interest to Paranet researches should be delievered via  NETMAIL to Mike
   Corbin at Paranet Administration for review and subsequent release.

4. Direct Flames  are  best posted elsewhere. They will not be tolerated in
   the echos.

5. References  should be included if required for clarity.  Some users tend
   to  copy  the  entirity of previous messages  before  responding,  while
   others  never  quote anything and simply make  comments  about  previous
   posts.   You  should remember that many boards don't hold  all  messages
   forever.  Quote (if your software  allows it)  or  at  least  paraphrase
   (write  a  simple summary of) the content  of  the message you refer to.
   Please  DO NOT  quote the  entire  message,  as this is just expense for
   all boards concerned.  Quote only the germaine material.

6. Please make  all  messages conform to the specified content of the  Echo
   Area in which you are posting.  Putting  the  messages in the right pile
   makes it MUCH easier to make sense out of the stacks of messages.

7. Enforcement.  Users who violate these guidelines will  be advised of the
   lapse by the Echo Moderator. After three violation notices,  the user is
   to be locked out of Paranet areas by the sysop.  A FIRST lockout will be
   for  THIRTY DAYS.  A  SECOND lockout will be for NINETY days.  The THIRD
   lockout  will  be PERMANENT.  Sysops who refuse to lock out  troublesome
   users  can be dropped from the net by the Paranet Administrator.   Users
   who  believe  the Moderator has been unfair in requesting a lockout  can
   request  that  their Sysop plead their case in the Sysop Echo.  In  such
   cases,  ALL net Sysops will be asked to vote on the matter.  Vote of the
   net is binding on all concerned.

Doug Rogers
Echo Moderator




--
Doug Rogers - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: **** Warning *****
Date: 7 Jul 91 23:30:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Fido UFO Echo"
 * Originally from Mike Mansfield
 * Originally dated 07-05-91 23:20

     In a recent 'research study' done by UTMB Neuropsychology Galveston on the
effects of migrane headaches upon lifestyle, a few CURIOUS questions arose,
being that my wife was a participant, she was able to relay this information to
me.  (She had recently been scheduled for a Cat Scan to diagnose unusual
migrane headaches)
  The questionairres were in general, mostly generic, but the following
questions were asked that make me feel *perhaps* something more is being
studied than just headaches...
  1) Have you ever felt you were being watched?
next question was a clincher...
  2) Do you believe in Extraterrestrial life?

I see little reason that such questions should be included in a purely
scientific study unless the medical profession has turned 180 degrees and
suddenly believes in extraterrestrials...

  (still waiting for the results of the Cat-Scan... although I wonder if we'll
get to see what was actually taken, or not...)

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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                          Abduction Digest, Number 17

                             Friday, July 19th 1991

Today's Topics:

                   Re: Keelynet & Vangard Sciences Foundation
                               **** Warning *****
                                    This Echo
                   Re: Keelynet & Vangard Sciences Foundation
                                    This Echo

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Keelynet & Vangard Sciences Foundation
Date: 13 Jul 91 09:40:00 GMT

PN>        Could you suggest what file I should read or d/l to
PN>learn something about Keely and how the KeelyNet got
PN>started?
PN>        I appreciate the lead.  Thanks!


Hi Peggy, and sorry for the long lapse.  There are actually several
biographical files on John W. Keely on my BBS and on KeelyNet.  Keelybio.zip
is one, and there are others.

I'd suggest calling here & running at text search in the Keely Areas.
You'll find quite a few.

Also have a new GIF graphic of the Keely Airship, courtesy of Joe Misiolek.

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Tyson Mitchiner)
Subject: **** Warning *****
Date: 12 Jul 91 10:30:02 GMT


 MC> * Forwarded from "Fido UFO Echo"
 MC> * Originally from Mike Mansfield
 MC> * Originally dated 07-05-91 23:20

 MC>  2) Do you believe in Extraterrestrial life?

  That is bad way to phrase this kind of question.. I would have to answer no
to this question, although it wouldn't mean I debunk the notion.  Quite the
contrary, I am interested in whatever information can be pieced together, to
the point where the UFO mystery is resolved.

  Since I have no proof that disproves or proves what the UFO's actually are,
I cannot believe in or against this situation.

                                                  Tyson


--
Tyson Mitchiner - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: This Echo
Date: 14 Jul 91 04:30:13 GMT

Is Dr. David Jacobs the Moderator of this Echo?  Is he available for questions?

Thanks, take care.
John.

--
John Powell - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Re: Keelynet & Vangard Sciences Foundation
Date: 17 Jul 91 19:56:00 GMT

Hi Clark,
        Thanks for the file info and background.  I've saved it and
will get the file you mentioned to learn more about Keely.  Thanks,
again!
                                ==Peggy==
--
Peggy Noonan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: This Echo
Date: 18 Jul 91 07:02:00 GMT


 > Is Dr. David Jacobs the Moderator of this Echo?  Is he available
 > for questions?

  He supposedly is, but he hasn't dropped in for a while. The echo's
been fairly inactive.

                                           jbh

--
John Hicks - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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                          Abduction Digest, Number 18

                           Wednesday, July 24th 1991

Today's Topics:

                   Re: Keelynet & Vangard Sciences Foundation
                                    This Echo
                                 STREIBER LETTER
                                    This Echo

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Keelynet & Vangard Sciences Foundation
Date: 18 Jul 91 21:55:00 GMT

PN>        Thanks for the file info and background.  I've
PN>saved it and will get the file you mentioned to learn more
PN>about Keely.  Thanks, again!

My pleasure!

Best,
 Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: This Echo
Date: 21 Jul 91 03:13:39 GMT

In a message to John Powell <18 Jul 91 00:02> John Hicks wrote:

 >> Is Dr. David Jacobs the Moderator of this Echo?  Is he available
 >> for questions?
 JH>  He supposedly is, but he hasn't dropped in for a while. The
 JH> echo's been fairly inactive.

Thanks John, I kinda suspected that...  Rats.

Thanks, take care.
John.

--
John Powell - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!mrc-crc.ac.uk!carbon.crc.ac.uk!mrc-crc.ac.uk!sgamble
Subject: STREIBER LETTER
Date: 24 Jul 91 11:43:21 GMT

From: Steve Gamble x3293 <[e-mail]>


On 29 June 91 Sheldon Wernikoff mailed to Info-paranet 432
a open letter from Whitley Streiber where he states that he
is giving up his newletter and leaving the field. Has anyone
heard anything more on this one?

Streiber also tells us what he thinks of UFOlogists. I contribute
the following story of how well he gets on with UFOlogists. In
1988 my colleague Bob Digby attended Leo Sprinkle's Rocky Mountain
Conference. Bob is a nice guy (so he tells me anyway!) and fairly
easy to get on with. He was talking to Whitley who asked 'what
brings you all the way from England to this conference'. Bob replied
to hear about peoples experiences and to hear your talk Whitley.
Whitley's reply went something like 'well you UFOlogists won't like
what I have to say' and walked off. He might find UFOlogists
disagreeable, but he did not put much effort into getting on with
people, so it seems.

STEVE GAMBLE
[e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: This Echo
Date: 24 Jul 91 01:12:00 GMT


 >  >> Is Dr. David Jacobs the Moderator of this Echo?  Is he available
 >  >> for questions?
 >  JH>  He supposedly is, but he hasn't dropped in for a while. The
 >  JH> echo's been fairly inactive.
 >
 > Thanks John, I kinda suspected that...  Rats.

We lost our affiliate in the Philadelphia area, but not for long.  We have
another who will join us soon and Jacobs will be back on.

Stay tuned.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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                          Abduction Digest, Number 19

                             Monday, July 29th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                   The Beyond
                                      Lydia

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Don Hertzfeldt)
Subject: The Beyond
Date: 18 Jul 91 01:24:57 GMT


    Hello, I'm a brand new user around these here parts, but I can tell
that this place is somewhere to stick around, as I have very very
similar interests. I run The Beyond sub on The Hunter's Cantina
(770-1527, handle Mason), which specailizes in the paranormal, from UFO
abductions to poltergeists to basically bizzare things. I'll upload some
texts from The Beyond to whet your appetite, and then hopefully I'll see
you there...

--
Don Hertzfeldt - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Lydia
Date: 29 Jul 91 01:10:00 GMT

Jim,

I was wondering how your "Lydia" case was progressing and if you
will be posting an update shortly?

Unfortunately, the case I am involved with in Oregon has come to a
standstill - due to the fact that the percipient has decided she no
longer desires to explore her missing time episodes with a
therapist. She just wants to get on with her life and forget about
everything that happened. It's certainly frustrating for me, but of
course I must respect her wishes. She may change her mind as this
has occurred before.

Thanks,

Sheldon



--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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                          Abduction Digest, Number 20

                            Monday, August 5th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                    Re: Lydia
                                    This Echo

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Lydia
Date: 29 Jul 91 21:20:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <07-28-91 18:10> Sheldon Wernikoff wrote:

->Unfortunately, the case I am involved with in Oregon has come to a
->standstill - due to the fact that the percipient has decided she no
->longer desires to explore her missing time episodes with a
->therapist. She just wants to get on with her life and forget about
->everything that happened. It's certainly frustrating for

If that's the case, then the most important part of your work has been
completed successfully. Evidence has to come second to therapy. If she is
ready, willing and able to go on with her life, then her therapy has worked.
As to evidence, or even developing more knowledge about the phenomenon, it
may be frustrating, but I don't hold out much hope of any one particular
case being a breakthrough, short of someone barfing up an implant or
something. Its the slow and painstaking cataloguing of case experiences over
time that builds the best case for abductions.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: This Echo
Date: 30 Jul 91 02:11:27 GMT

In a message to John Powell <23 Jul 91 18:12> Michael Corbin wrote:

 >>  >> Is Dr. David Jacobs the Moderator of this Echo?  Is he available
 >>  >> for questions?
 >>  JH>  He supposedly is, but he hasn't dropped in for a while. The
 >>  JH> echo's been fairly inactive.
 >>
 >> Thanks John, I kinda suspected that...  Rats.
 MC> We lost our affiliate in the Philadelphia area, but not for long.
 MC> We have another who will join us soon and Jacobs will be back on.
 MC> Stay tuned.

Outstanding!  I am hereby staying fine tuned.

Thanks, take care.
John.

--
John Powell - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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                          Abduction Digest, Number 21

                           Thursday, August 15th 1991

Today's Topics:

                             Statement of Principals
                              Satanic Ritual abuse

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Statement of Principals
Date: 10 Aug 91 21:24:00 GMT

UFO Magazine Vol. 6 No. 1
All Rights Reserved.

This may be reprinted as long as
this header remains intact.

Statement of Principals
by John Brandenburg

  The Rainbow Declaration is many things. Firstly, it is
a declaration of independence from our old world view:
that Earth was the "whole world" and its peoples oc-
cupied its center, that God alone inhabited the heavens,
that relations between different peoples in the cosmos
were of no serious concern, that if other people did live
in heavenly places, they would always act like angels, be-
ing better than us earthly flesh-and-blood. The Rainbow
Declaration replaces this world view with a cosmic
view-that Earth is a rare, precious, fragile and very
finite planet to be cherished, one among several planets
orbiting a star, Sol, which is merely one star among
myriads in a galaxy that is one among myriads.
  The Declaration recognizes that the people of Earth
are a unique expression of life and intelligence in a
Universe that abounds in life and intelligence, one peo-
ple among myriads in the cosmos, no more, no less. It
states that we are God's children, therefore any claim by
any other race to ownership or privilege over us or our
planet is nullified.
  By the Rainbow Declaration we realize a new identity:
we are the Solarians, the people of the star Sol, a name
that follows the custom in science fiction of naming
species after their star of origin. Solarian means literally "born
of the Sun" (and, I think, is a better identifica-
tion than "Earthling" or even "Terran"). By linking
our identity with the Sun, our star of origin, Solarian is
a proud and demanding name. We must strive to live up
to it. If we are Solarians, then we are people of the
cosmos, having equal rights with our fellow peoples of
the cosmos. If we are the Solarian people, then we are
something of consequence in cosmos. We belong here.
We are a force to be reckoned with.

Basic rights

  The Rainbow Declaration is a "Cosmic Bill of
Rights," stating that all peoples are equal and shall en-
joy basic rights. In particular, all peoples shall have the right
to exclusive use of their genetic codes. A people's
genetic code is a "textbook" on how to live in the
biosphere of their homeworld and fight the many
diseases there.
  It is assumed by the Declaration that if any other peo-
ple takes our genetic code, outside of reciprocal and
publicly-sanctioned scientific exchange, they are pro-
bably contemplating forcible colonization of the people's
homeworld. Another right is the right of a people to
possess their own region of space, centered on the star
of their homeworld. Finally, because rights on Earth
must be defended vigorously if they are not to be mean-
ingless, the right to assert and defend these rights is
basic.
   The Rainbow Declaration did not arise spontaneously
in a vacuum; it arose like most statements of basic
rights-from a situation of gross abuse. The Declaration
is a positive response to the reported activities of some
extraterrestrial groups here on Earth, actions that are
vile and abusive by any human standard, and as the
Declaration asserts, by the standards of any other com-
munity of civilized peoples in the cosmos.
  To believe such alleged actions aren't a form of abuse
is, in my opinion, an assertion that it is right for one
peoples to own another, or that "might makes right "
or that technological superiority creates moral authority
The Rainbow Declaration thus asserts that abuse is
abuse whether it is justified by alien riddles or animal
grunts, and that aggression is to be opposed whether it is
backed by glittering technology or stone axes. The Rain-
bow Declaration is a statement of defiance against those
who transgress against Earth, as well as an appeal for
peace and justice between peoples. The Declaration
begins by saying that the human race ought to set its
own house in order. In particular, if we want Earthly in-
telligent life to be respected, we ought to respect our
fellow Earthly creatures, especially whales and dolphins,
who are probably in their own way as intelligent as we
are. The Declaration also states that the United Nations
is the proper agency for negotiations with any extrater-
restrials-not any one nation's foreign ministry-and
that any such negotiations and their results should be open and
public.

Sovereignty of God

  The Rainbow Declaration also acknowledges God as
the one sovereign source of all law and kinship among
peoples of the cosmos. Some have taken issue with this.
But if there are universal laws, who but God could or-
dain them? And if all peoples of the cosmos are part of
one family, who but God could be the head of that
family?
  I cannot conceive of such a document, dealing with
such fundamental issues, that would not acknowledge
God. As for attempts to evoke ethical and social systems
on Earth based on denial of God, we have only to look
at this century's examples of Communism and Nazism
to see the results of such experiments. On the other
hand, the greatest and most enduring components of
human civilization are centered on an explicit or implicit
acknowledgement of the Divine.
  To acknowledge the Divine is to evoke power and in-
telligence that is beyond the reach of political or
technological powers-that-be on earth or elsewhere, and
to recognize a source of mortal authority and truth that
transcends all boundaries of race, nation or star, a
power that laughs at gold and technology, before whom
the stars are dust and galaxies mere snowflakes, and
before whom the wisest and oldest species of intelligence
in this galaxy are but toddling children.
   Finally, the Declaration is a statement of human in-
tentions, that we intend to join the community of
peoples of the cosmos as a respected and equal member.
Achieving respect means that respect will be earned, not
commanded; thus, the Rainbow Declaration is first and
foremost a recognition of our true identity and the
responsibilities that come with it. This ought to be our
real goal: to become known as the Solarian people, a
just and brave people in our own eyes and in the eyes of
the whole galactic community. We would want to be
known as a people who can bring light and truth to the
family of peoples, not merely as having duplicated the
technological achievements of others.

--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jack Doran)
Subject: Satanic Ritual abuse
Date: 7 Aug 91 13:23:11 GMT

>I have been interested for the last few years in the
>whole 'satanism' phenomena, and have noticed many
>parallels between abduction claims and the claims made
>by 'satanic ritual child abuse survivors'. I have been
>corresponding with Dr. Robert Baker, a professor of
>psychology at the University of Kentucky on this subject
>and he recently suggested that I look into getting a
>book called "Sexual Abuse Hysteria: the Salem Witch Trials
>revisited" by Richard A. Gardner. You might find this
>interesting reading as well.

Have you found any credible victims of satanic abuse
who are NOT connected with some Christian group or
another?  I recently saw a Sally Jesse Rafael
show where 1 of the 3 witnesses was very credible,
but even she was now connected with a "born again"
group; she claims to have been a "breeder"
for an international group of satanists.  I for one
believe that fundamentalist Christians can see Old
Nick just about anywhere they want to see him,
which is everywhere, so I put no credence in any
of their testimony.  Especially the testimony of
people who suddenly "remember" having been
satanically abused at a young age and "it's
all coming back to me."  I would be interested
if you could steer me to any credible
sources that support the thesis that there is a
group of "generational satanists" operating in
the U.S. today.  One of the best books on Satanism
is SATAN WANTS YOU which, despite the title,
is quite scholarly.

--
Jack Doran - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 22

                           Thursday, August 22nd 1991

Today's Topics:

                                      files
                                       hi.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Danny Brandenburg)
Subject: files
Date: 8 Aug 91 23:23:36 GMT

> I'll upload some texts from The Beyong to wet you appetite, and then

> hopehully I'll see you there...



 Don,

     Is there any way we could trade disks trough the mail?  I would
like to get hold on some of the software and files you mentioned.
However, due to the price of long distance, I feel that I am not able

to do any form of mass transfer over the lines.  Also, are you
connected to the Bitnet/Internet systems.  If so, we could transfer the
files there.  If you are connected, send E-mail to [e-mail]



                  Thanks in advance,

                  Danny Brandenburg

                  Brandenburg's BBS...[phone]


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Danny Brandenburg)
Subject: hi.
Date: 18 Aug 91 02:55:16 GMT

Do you happen to live here locally (in Kentucky or in Lexington)?  Are
you also a member of the Kentucky Ascociation of Science Educators and
Skeptics?  I noticed in a previous note that you had talked to Dr. Robert
Baker.  I think I may know you outside of this net.

          Just interested,

          Brandenburg


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 23

                          Wednesday, August 28th 1991

Today's Topics:

                               Rainbow Declaration
                             WITNESS SUPPORT GROUPS
                             Witness Support Groups
                            Abduction of Leo Sprinkle
                               Rainbow Declaration
                                 Welcome (Again)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jack Doran)
Subject: Rainbow Declaration
Date: 15 Aug 91 19:44:06 GMT

Do you have to vote for Jesse Jackson to subscribe to the Rainbow
Declaration?

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: mrc-crc.ac.uk!sgamble
Subject: WITNESS SUPPORT GROUPS
Date: 23 Aug 91 14:37:16 GMT

From: Steve Gamble x3293 <[e-mail]>

Dear All,

One problem I have been giving some thought to is how UFOlogists
might help abductees and other close encounter witnesses. I am
mailing here to see what other ideas people can provide.

Should we be aiming for Budd Hopkins style mutual support type
groups or the Rima Laibow one-to-one session with a professional
shrink?

Steve.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Witness Support Groups
Date: 26 Aug 91 03:20:00 GMT

In a message to all <23-Aug-91> Steve Gamble wrote:

SG> One problem I have been giving some thought to is how
SG> UFOlogists might help abductees and other close encounter
SG> witnesses. I am mailing here to see what other ideas people can
SG> provide.

SG> Should we be aiming for Budd Hopkins style mutual support type
SG> groups or the Rima Laibow one-to-one session with a
SG> professional shrink?

Hi, Steve

Ufologists must learn not to isolate the abduction/witness
experience from other previous/post events in the percipient's
life. The holistic approach seems to yield the best results.

Mutual support groups certainly have a place in all this, but the
witness learns little about what/why things have occurred to them,
they just seem to discover the fact that what happened is OK, and
it happens to others. They also tend to get overly attached to the
group facilitator.

I think the best way to go would be a combination of support,
therapy, scientific education, and a dash of healthy skepticism.
Hypnotic regression should also be utilized much less frequently
than it is now, and when deemed necessary, should only be
administered by qualified professionals.

Take care,

---Sheldon  (Chicago, IL)


--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Abduction of Leo Sprinkle
Date: 25 Aug 91 16:53:00 GMT

In the August 1991 issue of THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY is a long (10-page)
article called "The UFO Expereince."

Leo Sprinkle of the Univ. of Wyoming founded the Rocky Mountain
Conference on UFO Investigation in 1980.  This article tells of an
abduction experience for Sprinkle at age 10.  The alien's message to
Sprinkle aboard the craft was, "Leo, learn to read and write well so
that when you grow up, you can help other people learn more about their
purposoe in life."

Sprinkle felt relieved (after his own hypnosis) and he felt it was all
"preparation for my UFO research work.  The psychological dilemma was
over.  I accepted myself as a contactee.  Now I had a social dilemma.
I had encouraged otheres to speak out and now I had to do the same."

So what happened after a while?  The National Enquirer picked
up Sprinkle's story (included in Ruth Montgomery's book ALIENS AMONG
US)
and the headlines were:

   "Space Aliens Abducted Me as a Child...Claims College Professor,"

and the piece was the predictaable disaster.


In 1989, 2 years after the "Enquirer" piece came out, Sprinkle ,
succumbing to considerable pressure, resigned his tenured
professorship.

Read the article as it is fascinating.  I managed to find THE ATLANTIC
MONTHLY in my city's humble library, so it is available.

Thanks,

Linda Bird

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Rainbow Declaration
Date: 26 Aug 91 23:53:00 GMT

He said;

 > Do you have to vote for Jesse Jackson to subscribe to the Rainbow
 > Declaration?

Nope, just read ParaNet......


Don

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Welcome (Again)
Date: 28 Aug 91 05:09:00 GMT

Steve:

Forgive me if you got this message already, but you never responded, so I
thought I would post it again just in case it never reached you. I'm never
sure what ParaNet echoes are hooked into the InterNet. (Mike, if ABDUCT is
not hooked in, please forward this to Steve one way or the other).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve:

First, welcome to ParaNet. Your organization is a much-needed addition
to this network.

Second, a few months ago a program aired on American television on the
subject of abductions. One of the three segments centered on a case
involving a police officer in Yorkshire by the name of Alan Godfrey. I
wondered if you were familiar with this case, and how it is regarded in
the UK. It seemed a very interesting case on this end, but I had never
heard of it before.

Thanks,
        Jim Speiser


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 24

                         Wednesday, September 4th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                Alan Godfrey Case

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mrc-crc.ac.uk!sgamble
Subject: Alan Godfrey Case
Date: 30 Aug 91 15:11:53 GMT

From: Steve Gamble x3293 <[e-mail]>


To : Jim Speiser

In reply to your message in abduct 23 :-

+Forgive me if you got this message already, but you never responded, so I

The original message did get thro'. It came thro' just before I went off to
the International Congress in Sheffield. I remember making a mental note
to reply to the message but then forgot - Sorry

+sure what ParaNet echoes are hooked into the InterNet. (Mike, if ABDUCT is

I get the abduction newsletter so no problem (IF I remember to answer!!)

+ a few months ago a program aired on American television on the
+subject of abductions. One of the three segments centered on a case
+involving a police officer in Yorkshire by the name of Alan Godfrey. I
+wondered if you were familiar with this case, and how it is regarded in
+the UK. It seemed a very interesting case on this end, but I had never
+heard of it before.

I heard about the programme when I was at Leo Sprinkle's conference in
Laramie. Several people mentioned it to me and remarked how good it was.
If it is the same programme I am thinking of there were two other segments
which were Betty and Barney Hill and Travis Walton.

The Alan Godfrey case is featured extensively in a book called the
Pennine UFO Mystery by Jenny Randles, published around 1983. Basically
early one morning Alan was patrolling in his car near Todmorden in
Yorkshire. He came across a large UFO with what he described (I am
working from memory here) as a series of windows across the middle.
When he arrived back at the Police Station he appeared to have been
away around 15minutes longer than he expected. He described a circular
dry patch (on the wet road) just below where the UFO hovered.

At some point Alan was hypnotised. I can not remember what information
he came out with but recollect that it added something to his story. I
do remember seeing Alan on a couple of TV programmes where he said that
he could only vouch for the information he recalled without hypnosis. So
if he is not entirely happy with the hypnosis information we would be
better disregarding it. (perhaps that's why I cannot remember what came
out.)

The case has been somewhat controversial. Steuart Campbell has attempted
to explain it as some form of mirage. Jenny Randles has put forward a
form of the plasma vortex as a solution. One suggestion I have heard is
that, possibly as a result of working many night shifts, Alan suffered
from narcolepsy (cat napping) and that the incident was part of this. I
do not know if anybody has run any of these solutions past Alan.

There were a couple of other UFO reports from Yorkshire that same night.

I think the case is really wide open still.

Steve Gamble
[e-mail]






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                          Abduction Digest, Number 25

                          Monday, September 16th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                    Implants

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Implants
Date: 15 Sep 91 23:22:00 GMT

Some time ago I reported on Paranet concerning a local abduction case
where the woman involved believed she had an implant in her upper
mouth. I reported that a dental x-ray had indeed shown two unusual
items in her upper mouth in the area she had indicated. I mentioned
that the dentist involved had confirmed to me that he could not
explain the x-ray in conventional terms. I later reported that a full
mouth x-ray had failed to detect any such "implant".

I am in the process of completing an article for the IUR on this piece
of evidence, plus intend covering the subject of implants in general.
Thank you to all those on Paranet who have already forwarded me items
of interest to use in my article.

If anyone else has come across definitive examples of implants, I
would be grateful to hear of them-you will, of course, be referenced
as the source in my article. My postal address is UFORA Research
Division, PO Box 302, Modbury North, South Australia 5092, Australia,
or simply chat here.

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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                          Abduction Digest, Number 26

                         Thursday, September 26th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                  Re: Implants
                                    Implants
                                   abductions
                                 Re: abductions
                                   abductions

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Delton)
Subject: Re: Implants
Date: 18 Sep 91 05:39:00 GMT

I recently had a CT on my head.  The CT is a whole bunch of x-rays that
the computer puts together to get a good view of what's in the noggin.
With my interest in implants I made a point of asking the Doctor some
questions about what was on the plates when we went over them.  There
were some little spots here and there.  He said that such spots are
common and are calcium and other stuff but not really identifiable, per
se.

--
Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Implants
Date: 22 Sep 91 16:53:00 GMT

Recently while Jerry Clarke was attending the Sydney International UFO seminar,
I raised the question with him, "When did implant stories start?" One of the
first references I can find in the 1980's is in the Bennewitz saga. At one
stage Bennewitz and Dr Leo Sprinkle regressed a woman abductee. Amongst other
things, what emerged from this woman was that the aliens were surgically
implanting mind control devices into her skull to track her and use her as a
"remote control." (Sources: Clark, J. UFOs in the 1980's.Detroit. Apogee. 1990.
p88-89. Blum, H. Out There. pp230-231.)

Now, we are told that much of what Bennewitz believed was part of a USAF
disinformation campaign. So, does the implant section of the abduction
phenomenon originate from disinformation?

I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts, ideas, more factual information etc on this
matter.


(9:1040/12)


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: abductions
Date: 23 Sep 91 07:57:00 GMT

I have a difficult time believing that people are really abducted.  The
most believable case to me, was the Barney and Betty Hill case however,
in reading other data (besides the famous book on it which was written
from the point of view that the Hills were truly abducted), one
discovers things which subtract from the creditability of the Hills
testimony.

The author of COMMUNION (Whitney Streiber - I think I spelled that
right!!) seems to typify what might be a pattern for abduction cases.
The hard evidence is rather slim.  Abductees are examined with an
emphasis on their genitalia and often sexually aroused by the ET's.
Abductees often show a characteristic often found in schizophrenia, the
"I was chosen to" attitude.

I find it hard to believe that IF aliens landed and wished to
physically examine us, they would emphasize sexual arousal.  Our
methods of reproduction are really rather ordinary and sexual arousal
is something only exciting to the human animal - the alien might not
even pick up that sex is something extraordinarily scintillating to
humans - why should they since this attitude seems rather unreasonable
(i.e. our almost worshipping attitude about sex) in the overall scheme
of things.

Descriptions of examinations are often confusing and described as if
these aliens, possessing a far greater technology than ours, are rather
primitive in the methods of examination.

I have studied UFO's for years and have not, to this day, seen any HARD
evidence that any have even landed.  Pictures are always fuzzy,
witnesses are often inebriated or fame seeking or lack in stability in
one way or another.  Odd circumstances, even such as described in
Operation Blue Book, are explainable in other ways and even if they are
not explicable, it still doesn't mean that one MUST explain it using
the UFO theory.

My theory of UFOs is that it's a modern incarnation of the Greek and
Roman gods and godesses - the aliens often bear great resemblance to
these ancient mythological figures who were super human but very
actively sexual beings etc.  It's interesting that one seldom finds
people into Christianity and 'into'
UFO's at the same time.  I feel that further upholds my theory -
Christians being satisfied religiously speaking, need not search for
'gods' from the  sky.

In investigating archiological data, one finds evidence in the earliest
man of two things - art and religion.  (and the art is usually closely
connected to the religion).  The need for religion seems to be inborn
in man (and inexplicable since there is no obvious advantage to this
desire, evolutionarily speaking) and I feel that in an age where
traditional Christianity and Judiaism, the most modern monotheistic
religions, are being rejected, mankind is regressing back to the
paganism from whence he came - only the pagan gods are now clothed in
technological mythology, riding in space ships instead of chariots.

I leave this message, not as a criticism, but in hopes that many will
respond to me and present evidence either in favor or against my above
stated theory.  I wish to learn more from those who might teach me.

--
Sue Widemark - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Delton)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 24 Sep 91 21:58:00 GMT

ON what basis do you state that most witnesses are inebriated or
seeking attention.  From my reading it is exactly the opposite - most
witnesses are "normal" people who as often or not don't want to tell
anyone what they saw for fear of ridicule.  As to the religious
aspects, again, I have seen nothing that would even provide a basis for
formulating a theory of any substance in regard to the religiosity of
witnesses.  I will say however that one might wonder if the failure of
religion to solve the complex problems of today might lead otherwise
religious people to look for something more meaningful and something
that works, i.e., UFOnaughts.  I also don't see any evidence that
mankind is regressing back to paganism althought I don't see much
connection of that with UFO's one way or the other.
  When all is said and done the "evidence" remains that something is
being percieved in the skys over many cities and countries and not just
by wackos.  There have been numerous reports by people who are not
likely to be fabricating what they say, such as the reports by American
Military (Bentwaters) and Belgium Military (Belgium UFO) not to mention
the tons of military reports during the project bluebook days.  Most
people don't associate Military with "sense of humor" in regard to
false reporting - I think it highly unlikely that most military types
make suprious reports on UFO's for the fun of it.  That is not proof of
extraterrestrial visitation by any means but suggests to me that
SOMETHING is being perceived in the sky whatever it may be.

--
Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: abductions
Date: 24 Sep 91 22:20:00 GMT

Sue:

For now, I'll just add one thing to what Jim Delton said. (And this will be a
major element in my presentation to your MENSA group). In order to discuss UFOs
intelligently, we MUST divide the question into two separate but related
issues: 1) Do UFOs exist? 2) Are UFOs alien spacecraft? There really is no
reason to discuss the second issue without first establishing the answer to
the first. The answer to #1 is obviously yes. You claim:

 > I have studied UFO's for years and have not, to this day, seen any HARD
 > evidence that any have even landed.  Pictures are always fuzzy,
 > witnesses are often inebriated or fame seeking or lack in stability in
 > one way or another.  Odd circumstances, even such as described in
 > Operation Blue Book, are explainable in other ways and even if they are
 > not explicable, it still doesn't mean that one MUST explain it using the
 > UFO theory.

I don't know where you've been looking, but evidence (not PROOF - EVIDENCE)
exists that demonstrates the existence of a phenomenon. The phenomenon involves
flying objects that have thus far not been identified, even by our best
scientists. They SHOULD NOT BE THERE. When you say, "the UFO theory" in the
above paragraph, I assume you are referring to the alien spacecraft hypothesis.
That's true, and no one (at least not here on ParaNet) is saying anything about
"MUST". But that's issue #2. For now, issue #1 is on the table. I can, and
will, show you videotapes of objects that A) evade explanation by ordinary
means, B) exhibit aerodynamic properties we are not yet capable of, and C) SEEM
to exhibit intelligent guidance. Once that's established, are you willing to
explore further, or are you going to tell me what they told me on the SCIENCE
echo - basically, "SO WHAT?"


Its kinda funny, when Jim Delton first logged onto ParaNet 5 years ago, he left
a message almost exactly like yours. He has since changed his stance somewhat,
basically because we were able to show him the evidence he needed - pictures
that WEREN'T fuzzy, witnesses that WEREN'T cuckoo, etc. A question now occurs
to me: are you REALLY PREPARED to change your stance on this issue? Even when
the evidence dictates, its not always easy to do....


Jim

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                          Abduction Digest, Number 27

                           Saturday, October 5th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                     Jacobs
                                     Jacobs
                                   abductions
                                 Re: abductions
                                 Re: abductions
                                 Re: abductions
                                 Re: abductions
                                 Re: Abductions
                                   Abductions
                                 Re: Abductions
                                   abductions
                                   abductions
                                   abductions
                                   Abductions
                                Alan Godfrey Case
                                  FPP Research

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Jacobs
Date: 28 Sep 91 00:06:00 GMT

Can anyone tell me when David Jacobs new book is coming out and the
areas it will cover? Thanks.

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Mark Rodeghier)
Subject: Jacobs
Date: 27 Sep 91 23:27:00 GMT

* In a message originally to All, Keith Basterfield said:
>Can anyone tell me when David Jacobs new book is coming out and
>the areas it will cover? Thanks.
>
Hello, Keith:

First off, Jerry Clark certainly enjoyed his visit in Australia with
you, Bill, Jenny and others.  He's spent some time on the phone
filling me in on what he gleaned from his discussions.

As for Jacobs book, it should be out in early 1992.  I haven't seen it
but have heard about it from Swords and Jerry, who saw previous
drafts.  It is entitled (or was the last I heard) "The Secret Life
of UFO Abductees."  I don't have details on its exact content.
If I learn any more I'll certainly pass it along.
Regards, Mark.
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: abductions
Date: 27 Sep 91 19:13:00 GMT


 > discuss UFOs intelligently, we MUST divide the question into two
 > separate but related issues: 1) Do UFOs exist? 2) Are UFOs alien
 > spacecraft? There really is no reason to discuss the second issue
 > without first establishing the answer to the first. The answer to #1 is
 > obviously yes.

  Although UFOs obviously exist, as Vallee has pointed out, there really isn't
much evidence that could prove that they're alien spacecraft. They seem less
hardware and more "somthing else."
  So, anyway, I think we really need to seperate things even further....UFOs,
the spacecraft question, and the ET question. One common problem is the
perception that if you "buy" the existence of UFOs, you also "buy" the theory
that they're alien spacecraft piloted by live aliens. That nuance isn't made
very clear in most published material.
  Here in North America it's pretty much taken for granted that UFOs are
spacecraft, but I think that reflects our hardware high-tech society more than
any real evidence.
  So, granted that UFOs really exist, the question becomes, "Are they hardware
or not-so-hard ware?" Can't do much on where they come from without first
figuring out what they are. And we really can't do much on their occupants
either, other than indulge in pure speculation.

                                           jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 1 Oct 91 07:29:00 GMT

JD>ON what basis do you state that most witnesses are inebriated or
JD>seeking attention.

It's been that way in all the books I have read and I've been reading
books on UFOs for 30 years now...  Have read most of the 'classics' as
well as some of the modern works.

JD>I will say however that
JD>one might wonder if the failure of religion to solve the complex
JD>problems of today might lead otherwise  religious people to look
JD>for something more meaningful and something  that works, i.e.,
JD>UFOnaughts.

Why would a UFOnaught be more meaningful than God?  ET's are more
understandable than God and people are more comfortable with them.
Religion solves the complex problems of today (which are really not
much different from the complex problems of yesterday) just fine but
like Epson Salts, it doesn't work if you don't use it! (last statement
paraphrased from the 'Big Book' by Bill W. founder of AA who blamed his
alcoholism on his atheistic belief set which he changed upon getting
into AA, and consequently also, recovered from alcoholism - his
arguments for the falacies of atheism are, unlike Thomas Acquinas and
other scholars, very practical and very interesting to read).

JD>I also don't see any
JD>evidence that  mankind is regressing back to paganism althought
JD>I don't see much  connection of that with UFO's one way or the
JD>other.

In doing a comparative study of the UFO myths with pagan myths of
earlier civilizations, one can find quite a few striking similarities.
Gods like Apollo who fly through the air, are men but somewhat super
men, would not appeal to technological moderns, however, gods like ETs,
flying in space ships who possess pretty much the same statue and
powers attributed to Apollo and other like pagan gods, would appeal.

The prototype of such a god, humanlike but superior with superior
powers but not beyond the realm of physical enjoyments like sex,
appears in countless religions which predate monotheism.  That's the
odd thing about Judiaism and Christianity - the 'god' of those
religions is strikingly different from any other invented gods of
mankind and also, this 'god' is somewhat alien to man, not really a
figure that man feels comfortable with i.e. totally non human, beyond
physical pleasures like sex, doesn't want worship - only wants man to
love Him and other men and doesn't have a body.  Is everywhere etc.
Bishop Sheen points out the differentness of this Yahweh God figure as
being a rather impressive argument for the possibility that man did NOT
make up THIS God (too alien and too unlike all the other 'gods') which
leads us to suspect that many Something did contact the Jews (who wrote
down the accounts of this Something who called itself 'I am who is' in
the bible).

--
Sue Widemark - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 1 Oct 91 07:42:00 GMT

JS>I don't know where you've been looking, but evidence (not PROOF
JS>- EVIDENCE) exists that demonstrates the existence of a phenomenon.
JS>The phenomenon involves flying objects that have thus far not
JS>been identified, even by our best scientists.

I have examined much evidence and not found anything really convincing.
A few unexplained instances but that, in itself, does not necessarily
mean UFOs.

If you wish, I can upload some of the books I have read - lots - from
the Ruppelt book to the modern Streiber books.  Have been interested in
UFOs since the age of 10 when the idea fascinated me.

JS>For now, issue #1 is on the
JS>table. I can, and will, show you videotapes of objects that A)
JS>evade explanation by ordinary means, B) exhibit aerodynamic
properties
JS>we are not yet capable of, and C) SEEM to exhibit intelligent
JS>guidance. Once that's established, are you willing to explore
JS>further, or are you going to tell me what they told me on the
JS>SCIENCE echo - basically, "SO WHAT?"

I will listen with interest to anything you care to share with me. I
did specially order that book you told me to get which you felt very
convincing - I felt it more of the same stuff I had read over and over
- not real creditable witnesses, ETs overly interested in sex (which
they wouldn't be - sex is only exciting to us humans) and very vague
data.  However, the idea STILL fascinates me.  I would love to discover
some REAL evidence of visitations - guess that's why I keep reading and
investigating.

JS>Its kinda funny, when Jim Delton first logged onto ParaNet 5 years
JS>ago, he left a message almost exactly like yours. He has since
JS>changed his stance somewhat, basically because we were able to
JS>show him the evidence he needed -

I've been studying and reading for the past 30 years. (I list 20 books
in my book journal - just a fraction of the books I have read in the
last 30 years).

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Tyson Mitchiner)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 28 Sep 91 09:00:00 GMT


 JS> But that's issue #2. For now, issue #1 is on the table. I can, and
 JS> will, show you videotapes of objects that A) evade explanation by
 JS> ordinary means, B) exhibit aerodynamic properties we are not yet
 JS> capable of, and C) SEEM to exhibit intelligent guidance. Once that's

  Is there enough of those videotapes to release a documentary
pointing out that something unidentified exists, and to ask for a
serious scientific inquiry?

  I mean, if there was such a collection of those videotaped objects
grouped together and presented, and somehow gets on national TV, I don't
see how people would ignore such evidence that would lead one to ask,
"What ARE these objects?".  I do not mean saying "Oh, these are alien
spacecraft!", but "What are those objects?".

                            Tyson



    From an explorer.........
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Doug Rogers)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 29 Sep 91 18:24:22 GMT

Sue,

You certainly seem to make a large number of assertions here, and, like all
rational investigators, I'm interested in where these assertions are based.

For example:
 > of view that the Hills were truly abducted), one  discovers
 > things which subtract from the creditability of the Hills
 >  testimony.
 >

Such as?

 > Abductees often show a characteristic
 > often found in schizophrenia, the  "I was chosen to" attitude.
 >
 >
Would you not agree, using this criteria, that the same might be said of the
savior of the christian faith, his desiples, and last but not least, one
certain Paul, whose dreams opened the faith for the Gentiles?
 >
 >  Our  methods of reproduction are really rather ordinary
 > and sexual arousal is something only exciting to the human
 > animal - the alien might not  even pick up that sex is something
Last time I checked, sexual arrousal was common to most of the higher animals
on this planet.  I don't find it in the least odd that a study of the fauna of
the earth (including us) would not include this.

 > extraordinarily scintillating to  humans - why should they
 > since this attitude seems rather unreasonable  (i.e. our
 > almost worshipping attitude about sex) in the overall scheme
 >  of things.

Would this happen to reflect some negative attitude of your own?


 > Descriptions of examinations are often confusing and described
 > as if  these aliens, possessing a far greater technology
 > than ours, are rather  primitive in the methods of examination.

>From this, I assume that the contents of a modern operating room would make
sense to you if you suddenly woke up and found yourself there without
remembering the trip?


 > I have studied UFO's for years and have not, to this day,
 > seen any HARD  evidence that any have even landed.  Pictures
 > are always fuzzy,  witnesses are often inebriated or fame
 > seeking or lack in stability in  one way or another.  Odd

I'd be interested in seeing a statistical breakdown of the percentages of cases
wherein investigators have given credence to drunken sightings. As one trained
in psychology, I find your last comment extremely interesting.  How do you come
to the conclusion that people who see the unexplainable are "lacking in
stability?"


 > My theory of UFOs is that it's a modern incarnation of
 > the Greek and  Roman gods and godesses - the aliens often
 > bear great resemblance to  these ancient mythological figures
 > who were super human but very  actively sexual beings etc.

<ahem>
I believe I would again like to see a statistical breakdown if you wish to
make this assertion.  Do the "Nordics" REALLY outnumber the
"Greys" and the others by a significant percentage?  How many sources
have you consulted to arrive at this assertion?


 >  It's interesting that one seldom finds people into Christianity and 'into'
 > UFO's at the same time.  I feel that further upholds my
 > theory -  Christians being satisfied religiously speaking,
 > need not search for  'gods' from the  sky.
 >

It is my personal opinion that the above paragraph summizes your REAL agenda in
making this post.  Why do you feel that people who are "into Christianity" are
more stable than those who are not?  I can make a large number of arguments to
show that there are many facets of that faith that DESTABILIZE the personality.
I'm not here to bash Christians, but for someone to make an assertion that is
false on the face as you have done cannot go unchallenged.

 > I leave this message, not as a criticism, but in hopes
 > that many will  respond to me and present evidence either
 > in favor or against my above  stated theory.  I wish to
 > learn more from those who might teach me.

I trust the above comments will get you started.  I'm interested in seeing
hard, statistical answers to back up your generalities.  I'm also interested in
anything in your background that would lend cedability to your opinions.  It
may seem that I am attacking you personally. I am not.  The attack is on
unsubstantiated generalities which you put forth as givens.  I attack your
methods, and your reasons for making the post, not you as a person. The above
posts are made by me personally, and not in my role as echo coordinator.

Doug Rogers

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Abductions
Date: 2 Oct 91 14:30:00 GMT


 > ON what basis do you state that most witnesses are inebriated or seeking
 > attention.  From my reading it is exactly the opposite - most witnesses
 > are "normal" people who as often or not don't want to tell anyone what
 > they saw for fear of ridicule.  As to the religious aspects, again, I
 > have seen nothing that would even provide a basis for formulating a
 > theory of any substance in regard to the religiosity of witnesses.  I
 > will say however that one might wonder if the failure of religion to
 > solve the complex problems of today might lead otherwise religious
 > people to look for something more meaningful and something that works,
 > i.e., UFOnaughts.  I also don't see any evidence that mankind is
 > regressing back to paganism althought I don't see much connection of
 > that with UFO's one way or the other.

What elements would be required to formulate a theory?

Mike

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Abductions
Date: 2 Oct 91 14:36:00 GMT


 >   So, granted that UFOs really exist, the question becomes, "Are they
 > hardware or not-so-hard ware?" Can't do much on where they come from
 > without first figuring out what they are. And we really can't do much on
 > their occupants either, other than indulge in pure speculation.

Given yours and Jim's breakdown, the question now becomes, "What do we do to
determine the various properties that the phenomenon represents?"  Obviously,
Vallee feels that they do possess a property that exceeds what we feel to be
our physical bounds, but they have left phyysical traces, hence perhaps a
physical property.  I assert that we must be looking at scientific ways to
measure and instrument the phenomenon.  Unfortunately, stories and photographs
don't really give much information.

Mike

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Abductions
Date: 2 Oct 91 14:38:00 GMT

Please do not use a period as a line separator.  It creates havoc for the
Internet mail software and causes serious problems, not to mention the amount
of hair on Cyro's floor as he tries to straighten things out.  Cyro needs all
the hair he can get! :-)

Thanks for your cooperation.

Michael Corbin
Director

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: abductions
Date: 2 Oct 91 18:19:00 GMT


 >   Although UFOs obviously exist, as Vallee has pointed out, there really
 > isn't much evidence that could prove that they're alien spacecraft. They
 > seem less hardware and more "somthing else."
 >   So, anyway, I think we really need to seperate things even
 > further....UFOs, the spacecraft question, and the ET question. One
 > common problem is the perception that if you "buy" the existence of
 > UFOs, you also "buy" the theory that they're alien spacecraft piloted by
 > live aliens. That nuance isn't made very clear in most published
 > material.
 >   Here in North America it's pretty much taken for granted that UFOs are
 > spacecraft, but I think that reflects our hardware high-tech society
 > more than any real evidence.
 >   So, granted that UFOs really exist, the question becomes, "Are they
 > hardware or not-so-hard ware?" Can't do much on where they come from
 > without first figuring out what they are. And we really can't do much on
 > their occupants either, other than indulge in pure speculation.


Well stated, John, and I agree. I hope the "nuance" becomes clearer, but
unfortunately my many dealings with skeptics shows that there is still
ignorance on this issue. I am constantly forced to defend my stance that UFOs
are alien spaceships, when I haven't even come close to TAKING that stance.

Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: abductions
Date: 2 Oct 91 18:34:00 GMT


 > JS>I don't know where you've been looking, but evidence (not PROOF
 > JS>- EVIDENCE) exists that demonstrates the existence of a phenomenon.
 > JS>The phenomenon involves flying objects that have thus far not
 > JS>been identified, even by our best scientists.
 > .
 > I have examined much evidence and not found anything really convincing.
 > A few unexplained instances but that, in itself, does not necessarily
 > mean UFOs.

Unexplained = Unidentified = UFO. Couldn't be much more clear-cut. "UFO" is a
transient term, a temporary name for that which (temporarily) has no name. It
is the goal of all who study this phenomenon, skeptic and believer, to put a
more permanent moniker on each UFO reported.

 > .
 > If you wish, I can upload some of the books I have read - lots - from
 > the Ruppelt book to the modern Streiber books.  Have been interested in
 > UFOs since the age of 10 when the idea fascinated me.

Good to hear - and yes, I would like to see your book list.


 > I will listen with interest to anything you care to share with me. I did
 > specially order that book you told me to get which you felt very
 > convincing - I felt it more of the same stuff I had read over and over -
 > not real creditable witnesses,

What, in your opinion, compromised their creditability? What constitutes a
"creditable witness" in your mind? Perhaps a Christian priest? Plenty of those
in the database....

 > ...ETs overly interested in sex (which they
 > wouldn't be - sex is only exciting to us humans)

and many other higher forms of life, as Doug has pointed out. But that's not
the issue. Could it be that they are interested in sex, not in a voyeuristic
sense, but in a detached, empirical sense, much as we study the mating habits
of butterflies? (I'm not exactly turned on by watching butterflies getting it
on, and I doubt if many zoologists are).

 > and very vague data.

Again, please define "vague" and what you would term "specific". If I remember
correctly, the book I recommended was "Uninvited Guests" by Hall? That contains
an entire appendix of specific cases with specific data that can be researched.


Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: abductions
Date: 2 Oct 91 18:40:00 GMT


 >  JS> But that's issue #2. For now, issue #1 is on the table. I can, and
 >  JS> will, show you videotapes of objects that A) evade explanation by
 >  JS> ordinary means, B) exhibit aerodynamic properties we are not yet
 >  JS> capable of, and C) SEEM to exhibit intelligent guidance. Once that's

 >   Is there enough of those videotapes to release a documentary
 > pointing out that something unidentified exists, and to ask for a
 > serious scientific inquiry?


There's maybe three or four very fascinating ones. Whether or not that
constitutes enough for a documentary, I don't know. I know that they call for
in-depth analysis, which could make for an interesting documentary (to me at
least).


 >   I mean, if there was such a collection of those videotaped objects
 > grouped together and presented, and somehow gets on national TV, I don't
 > see how people would ignore such evidence that would lead one to ask,
 > "What ARE these objects?".  I do not mean saying "Oh, these are alien
 > spacecraft!", but "What are those objects?".

                            Tyson

As far as I know, all of these tapes have appeared on TV at some time or
another. One of them was on the recent Ron Reagan show (I don't know too much
about that one, but it LOOKS good at first glance - don't hold me to it if it
turns out to be a hoax). No one on the program even commented on the tape. Same
thing with Kanazawa - it was on CBS Evening News, but Connie Chung just smiled
and gave the obligatory "I-don't-believe-I-just-read-the-news" look. Tracy
Torme recently asked me about that tape, and expressed his frustration that no
one is pointing to it as a major mystery. So who knows what people will do,
even if we thrust a videotape in their face, they're likely to say, "Gee,
that's a mystery all right. Now let's see what the Cardinals are up to."

Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Abductions
Date: 2 Oct 91 21:18:00 GMT


 >>   So, granted that UFOs really exist, the question becomes, "Are they
 >> hardware or not-so-hard ware?" Can't do much on where they come from
 >> without first figuring out what they are. And we really can't do much on
 >> their occupants either, other than indulge in pure speculation.

 > Given yours and Jim's breakdown, the question now becomes, "What do we
 > do to determine the various properties that the phenomenon represents?"
 > Obviously, Vallee feels that they do possess a property that exceeds
 > what we feel to be our physical bounds, but they have left phyysical
 > traces, hence perhaps a physical property.  I assert that we must be
 > looking at scientific ways to measure and instrument the phenomenon.
 > Unfortunately, stories and photographs don't really give much
 > information.


This seems to be what I'm up against in the SCIENCE forum. They've gone from
telling me that UFOs are nonsense to telling me that, OK, UFOs exist, so what?
If you can't measure them or quantify them somehow, they are of no use to
science. They seem to forget that it shouldn't be up to us duffers to try and
develop ways of scientifically quantifying UFOs, it should be up to those
whose science degrees and federal grants we have for so long footed the bill.

I like to come back to the ball lightning analogy. Suppose a bunch of witnesses
come to Science saying, we've seen ball lightning. At first they get told that
they're crazy (which they did). Then they get told that, well, OK, prove it.
So they bring in photos. Then they get told, well, OK, we acknowledge the
phenomenon, but there's nothing we can do about it until YOU do the
measurements and the rest of the science. THEN we'll tell you what's
happening. To Science's credit, this did NOT happen; scientists (finally!)
jumped into the ball lightning fray and apparently have duplicated it under
lab conditions. So why can't they do something similar with UFOs? Why should
it be up to us?

Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Alan Godfrey Case
Date: 2 Oct 91 21:26:00 GMT


 > The Alan Godfrey case is featured extensively in a book called the
 > Pennine UFO Mystery by Jenny Randles, published around 1983. Basically
 > early one morning Alan was patrolling in his car near Todmorden in
 > Yorkshire. He came across a large UFO with what he described (I am
 > working from memory here) as a series of windows across the middle.
 > When he arrived back at the Police Station he appeared to have been
 > away around 15minutes longer than he expected. He described a circular
 > dry patch (on the wet road) just below where the UFO hovered.


What made the case interesting to me was that when Godfrey came to, he found
himself in a pasture full of cows, where there should be none. All night the
local constabulary had been receiving reports of cows wandering around. Its of
interest to me because it correlates with an abduction case here in Arizona
that was brought to my attention, and possibly with other cases. What IS the
fascination with cows, I wonder?

Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: FPP Research
Date: 4 Oct 91 03:50:00 GMT

I have been asked to post details of the recent article Bob
Bartholomew and I co-authored with George Howard. The article, titled:
"UFO abductees and contactees:Psychopathology or fantasy proneness?"
appeared in Vol 22 No 3 pp215-222 of "Professional Psychology:Research
and Practice."

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                          Abduction Digest, Number 28

                          Thursday, October 10th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                 Re: abductions
                                 Re: Abductions
                                   Abductions
                                   abductions

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Delton)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 6 Oct 91 05:18:00 GMT

I'd agree that man is always searching for someone/thing to explain the
unexplained to him and that search has included religion and may
account for some UFO thinking.
  Having read most of the UFO classics myself I think your assesement
of most people who report UFO's as being inebriated or seeking
attention simply is not supported by the literature.  Note that "most"
implies something in excess of 50%.
  And as to why a UFOnaut might be more meaningful then God - the
answer seems obvious to me.  God is all talk and no action and many
people are ready for some action and are hoping the ETs will supply it.

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Delton)
Subject: Re: Abductions
Date: 6 Oct 91 05:24:00 GMT

RE: Formulating a theory on religosity of the witnesses.
For starters, someone would have to have been collecting data on the
religious background and beliefs and habits of the witnesses.  The
already lengthy investigation form would have to have questions of:
  What is your religion, when did you last go to church, do you hold
stronger relgious views now or were they stronger 10 years ago, do you
know the name of your pastor, have you ever changed religions, how
often, why, and on and on.  It is entirely possible that one might find
a correlation between relgious belief (or lack thereof) and observation
of a UFO.  One of the problems of UFOlogy is that it trys to
investigate EVERY aspect and winds up without proper data to draw
conclusions on ANY aspect.

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Abductions
Date: 7 Oct 91 01:00:00 GMT


 >   I assert that we must be
 > looking at scientific ways to measure and instrument the phenomenon.
 > Unfortunately, stories and photographs don't really give much
 > information.

  That's for sure. Since we can't scientifically examine the "woo-woo" factor,
we should concentrate on what we can examine; what physical traces or effects
that are found. It may be the tail of the tiger, but at least it's a piece.
  The stories etc. can be filed away for the time when maybe we can examine
that stuff on a scientific rather than a belief-based basis.

                                           jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: abductions
Date: 7 Oct 91 01:02:01 GMT


 >  I am constantly forced to defend my stance that
 > UFOs are alien spaceships, when I haven't even come close to TAKING that
 > stance.

  Yeah, I know what you mean. When so many ufologists and hangers-on assume
UFOs are alien spaceships, it seems only natural that skeptics argue against
alien spaceships.

                                           jbh

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                          Abduction Digest, Number 29

                          Wednesday, October 16th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                 Re: abductions

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Tyson Mitchiner)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 8 Oct 91 08:04:48 GMT


 JS> As far as I know, all of these tapes have appeared on TV at some time
 JS> or another. One of them was on the recent Ron Reagan show (I don't
 JS> know too much about that one, but it LOOKS good at first glance -
 JS> don't hold me to it if it turns out to be a hoax). No one on the
 JS> program even commented on the tape. Same thing with Kanazawa - it was
 JS> on CBS Evening News, but Connie Chung just smiled and gave the
 JS> obligatory "I-don't-believe-I-just-read-the-news" look. Tracy Torme
 JS> recently asked me about that tape, and expressed his frustration that
 JS> no one is pointing to it as a major mystery. So who knows what people
 JS> will do, even if we thrust a videotape in their face, they're likely
 JS> to say, "Gee, that's a mystery all right. Now let's see what the
 JS> Cardinals are up to."
 JS> Jim

  I see your point.  In my opinion, the problem is that people do not like
"mysteries".  They like definite, "We know what it is" type of news.
When the two "hoaxers" came out, the media covered it because it was sort
of the "Ah, so it was a hoax after all" type.  They dont want to report
news that says "There are a few objects going across the sky, but we have
absolutely NO idea what it is".

  So, I guess it's up to us to unlock the mystery, despite the skepticism
and ridicule.  In my opinion, it seems we've made the biggest strides
into this than we have in any other decade.  Hopefully, we're close to
a breakthrough.

                          Tyson



 .. From an explorer.........
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 30

                           Monday, October 21st 1991

Today's Topics:

                                An Old Editorial
                                 Re: abductions
                                 Re: abductions
                                 Re: Abductions
                                   abductions

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: An Old Editorial
Date: 17 Oct 91 22:17:00 GMT

Thought y'all might get a kick out of this article I wrote way back in '88,
when I first heard of the Fantasy-Prone Hypothesis. Its not as well-written as
I would have liked, but I was bit PO'd at the time, so forgive me....
--------------

PARANET EDITORIAL: THE SNOBS AMONG US
by Jim Speiser


      As  I  have  stated before on many occasions, the idea that abduction
experiences  represent  objectively  real encounters with extraterrestrials
represents  an  hypothesis,  one that must be evaluated and weighed against
other  hypotheses or alternative "explanations." In terms of true scientif-
ic  objectivity,  no  one hypothesis has any more weight than any other un-
less  it can be shown to be more consistent with our knowledge and with all
the  pertinent facts. A psychological explanation is no more valid than any
other  simply by virtue of having been proposed by a more mainstream psych-
ologist;  it  must  prove itself on the weight of the evidence. Occam's ra-
zor,  however,  dictates  that  more mundane, less extravagant explanations
must  be evaluated and discarded before we can fully accept the more outre'
scenarios  into  the hallowed halls of "knowledge." You have to start some-
where.

      Abduction  specialists  such as Budd Hopkins have long paid much lip-
service  to  their  efforts to investigate the more subjective explanations
such  as  delusion  or  fantasy,  and so I am curious as to how he and they
will  react  to  the article in the Winter 1987/88 edition of the Skeptical
Inquirer,  entitled   "The Aliens Among Us: Hypnotic Regression Revisited,"
by  University  of Kentucky psychologist Robert A. Baker. While the article
is  flawed  in  many  respects,  it  compensates by offering the hypothesis
outlined in the following extract:

<<
          If  these  abductees were given...intensive diagnostic testing it
      is  highly  likely  that many similarities would emerge--particularly
      an  unusual  personality  pattern  that Wilson and Barber (1983) have
      categorized  as  "fantasy-prone."  In an important but much neglected
      article,  they  report  in  some detail their discovery of a group of
      excellent  hypnotic subjects with unusual fantasy abilities. In their
      words:

          Although  this study provided a broader understanding of the kind
          of  life  experiences  that may underlie the ability to be an ex-
          cellent  hypnotic  subject,  it  has  also led to a serendipitous
          finding  that  has  wide implications for all of psychology -- it
          has  shown  that  there exists a small group of individuals (pos-
          sibly  4%  of  the  population) who fantasize a large part of the
          time,  who  typically  "see,"  "hear,"  "smell,"  and "touch" and
          fully  experience  what  they  fantasize;  and who can be labeled
          fantasy-prone personalities.


      <<  Wilson  and Barber also stress that such individuals experience a
      reduction  in  orientation to time, place, and person that is charac-
      teristic  of  hypnosis  or  trance  during their daily lives whenever
      they  are  deeply  involved  in a fantasy. They also have experiences
      during  their  daily ongoing lives that resemble the classical hypno-
      tic  phenomena.  In  other words, the behavior we would normally call
      "hypnotic"  is  exhibited  by these fantasy-prone types (FPs) all the
      time.  In  Wilson  and  Barber's  words: "When we give them 'hypnotic
      suggestions,'  such  as for visual and auditory hallucinations, nega-
      tive  hallucinations,  age regression, limb rigidity, anesthesia, and
      sensory  hallucinations,  we are asking them to do for us the kind of
      thing they can do independently of us in their daily lives."

      <<  The  reason  we  do  not  run into these types more often is that
      they  have  learned long ago to be highly secretive and private about
      their  fantasy lives. Whenever the FPs do encounter a hypnosis situa-
      tion  it  provides them with a social situation in which they are en-
      couraged  to do, and are rewarded for doing, what they usually do on-
      ly  in  secrecy and in private. Wilson and Barber also emphasize that
      regression  and  the  reliving  of  previous experiences is something
      that  virtually  all  the FPs do naturally in their daily lives. When
      they  recall the past, they relive it to a surprisingly vivid extent,
      and  they all have vivid memories of their experiences extending back
      to their early years.
          >>

      While  there  are  many  aspects of the abduction syndrome left unex-
plained  by  this scenario, it appears to be a description of a personality
type  that  is consistent with some of the more famous "abductees," such as
Whitley  Streiber.  While  researching his two books, Budd Hopkins retained
the  expertise  of  psychologist Aphrodite Clamar, who administered psycho-
logical  evaluation tests to nine abduction percipients, all of whom proved
to  be  normal,  sane  individuals. The point Baker makes, however, is that
these  FPs  ARE  ALSO SANE, and would no doubt pass such a test. He further
claims  that  there are more stringent tests designed to weed out such FPs,
and  I maintain that, in the interest of true scientific objectivity, it is
incumbent  upon  researchers such as Hopkins to arrange to have such a test
administered  to another group of abduction claimants. We have been provid-
ed  with  an earthly alternative; we owe it to the public, to the skeptics,
to  other  researchers, and to the claimants themselves (who Hopkins claims
are  actually  quite fearful of the ETH) to investigate fully this new pos-
sibility.

      There  is  another,  admittedly  more  selfish and spiteful reason to
objectively  evaluate  the  "FPH." Baker, typical of many CSICOP "hit-men,"
has  succumbed  to  snobbery  and  unabashedly claims the intellectual high
ground  in  his article. He was doing just fine until his "Consequences and
Summary"  section.  Some  quotes typify his attitude: "Need we be concerned
about  an  invasion of little gray kidnappers? Amused, yes. Concerned, no."
"Should  we  take Streiber, Hopkins, Kinder, et al. seriously? Not really."
"Tolerance  IS the mark of a civilized mind." Well, BLESS you, Prof. Baker.
You  seem  to  forget,  however,  that YOUR hypothesis has not been tested,
either,  and  consequently  you  have  as  yet no legitimate claim to being
"right."  And  as  I stated before, your article is flawed. It doesn't take
into  account  the physical evidence, such as scarring, landing traces, and
"exoglyphic  exemplars."  It  relies heavily on generalizations and quoting
of  previous studies which only tangentially impact the abduction scenario.
And  it  weakly  waves  off  the  marked similarities between abduction ac-
counts.

      If testing of the FPH should provide a clear indication that a psych-
ological  explanation is warranted, I fully expect abduction researchers to
acknowledge  that their hypothesizing of alien intervention stands on weak-
ened  legs.  If, however, the results of such testing show no such correla-
tion,  I  would  appreciate  it  if  Prof.  Baker and other debunkers would
propose  solutions  in  a  more  detached, even-handed, level-headed manner
more  becoming  of the TRULY civilized. Failing this, I would appreciate it
if they would kindly shutup.
  <<>>
Copyright (c)1988 National Fringe Sciences Information Service. All rights
reserved.

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 20 Oct 91 08:01:00 GMT

>Would you not agree, using this criteria, that the same might be
>said of the savior of the christian faith, his desiples, and last
>but not least, one certain Paul, whose dreams opened the faith for
>the Gentiles?

No, because Paul didn't really say he was chosen.  He was merely
interested in sharing what he felt to be the message about Jesus. And
no, Jesus did not show any schizophrenia.  He was rather normal, as a
matter of fact until He somehow managed to raise Himself from the dead
(or at least, really convince a bunch of people of such event, to the
point that they became very dedicated).  Keep in mind, this story of
Jesus has not died out over 2000 years.  You might find a book by
Bishop Sheen, entitled THE LIFE OF CHRIST rather interesting.

> > Descriptions of examinations are often confusing and described
> > as if  these aliens, possessing a far greater technology
> > than ours, are rather  primitive in the methods of examination.
>
>From this, I assume that the contents of a modern operating room
>would make sense to you if you suddenly woke up and found yourself
>there without remembering the trip?

Doesn't answer the above point..

>I'd be interested in seeing a statistical breakdown of the percentages
>of cases wherein investigators have given credence to drunken
sightings.
>As one trained in psychology, I find your last comment extremely
>interesting.  How do you come to the conclusion that people who
>see the unexplainable are
>"lacking in stability?"

Not a conclusion *I* came to but one observed by several writers.

>It is my personal opinion that the above paragraph summizes your
>REAL agenda in making this post.  Why do you feel that people who
>are "into Christianity" are more stable than those who are not?
>I can make a large number of arguments to show that there are many
>facets of that faith that DESTABILIZE the personality. I'm not here
>to bash Christians, but for someone to make an assertion that is
>false on the face as you have done cannot go unchallenged.

It has been observed by psychologists that people who have a religious
orientation tend to deal with disability and age better than those who
don't.  Also, Bill W., the founder of AA makes a rather impressive case
that atheistic beliefs caused alot of his problems.  People who join AA
and embrace the Deistic orientation tend to deal with their lives
better than they did before joining.

>I trust the above comments will get you started.  I'm interested
>in seeing hard, statistical answers to back up your generalities.
>I'm also interested in anything in your background that would lend
>cedability to your opinions.  It may seem that I am attacking you
>personally. I am not.  The attack is on unsubstantiated generalities
>which you put forth as givens.  I attack your methods, and your
>reasons for making the post, not you as a person. The above posts
>are made by me personally, and not in my role as echo coordinator.

I didn't feel your message was attacking at all.  I have expressed the
fact that what I posted was my impression from the books I had read. I
am interested in reading the 'other side' and would be interested in
your presenting some evidence to refute what I have stated.

--
Sue Widemark - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 20 Oct 91 08:07:00 GMT

>What, in your opinion, compromised their creditability? What constitutes a
>"creditable witness" in your mind? Perhaps a Christian priest? Plenty
>of those in the database....

Golly, Jim, I'm not that biased.  No... it isn't what a witness does -
it's more HOW he observes what happened, how subjective and relational
he is (as opposed to logical), how emotionally involved etc etc.

>Again, please define "vague" and what you would term "specific".
>If I remember correctly, the book I recommended was "Uninvited Guests"
>by Hall? That contains an entire appendix of specific cases with
>specific data that can be researched.

Don't know how else I can put that.  The book you suggested for me, was
more of the same stuff I had read before.  Vague data i.e. not really
factual but more emotional observations.  Highly emoutional imaginative
witnesses. etc.

Will upload biobliography soon (as soon I as type it in as it's on the
MAC and I don't have a modem on that machine at present...

--
Sue Widemark - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 20 Oct 91 08:09:00 GMT

>  And as to why a UFOnaut might be more meaningful then God - the
>answer seems obvious to me.  God is all talk and no action and many
>people are ready for some action and are hoping the ETs will supply
>it.

Actually, people would tend to THINK something humanoid would be more
action than God just because we have an easier time conceiving of
something humanoid.

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: abductions
Date: 21 Oct 91 10:30:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Delton <20 Oct 91 01:09> Sue Widemark wrote:

 >>  And as to why a UFOnaut might be more meaningful then God - the
 >>answer seems obvious to me.  God is all talk and no action and many
 >>people are ready for some action and are hoping the ETs will supply
 >>it.

Oh, I don't know.  The God of Moses knew all about leyden jars ... er, the Ark
of the Covenant, I mean.

But then old Horus apparently knew a bit about storage batteries and
incandescent lighting.  And airfoils.  Too bad they never hooked up and formed
a grid.

 SW> Actually, people would tend to THINK something humanoid would be
 SW> more action than God just because we have an easier time
 SW> conceiving of something humanoid.

Well, I think that what we're dealing with here could turn out to be the "God
of a Thousand Faces".  From the Red Sea miracle to Fatima, there's every
indication that alien "gods" can play the role of ultimate imposters and
peerless imposers of their own "miracles".

What interests me is that some of these interpretations show a deeply spiritual
side (both good and evil), and others are patently, deliberately bogus --
almost designed to dash the expectations they raise.

Best,
  Clark


--
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 31

                          Thursday, October 31st 1991

Today's Topics:

                                 Re: abductions
                                   abductions
                                 Re: abductions
                                 Re: abductions

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Schuyler)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 23 Oct 91 05:37:00 GMT

In a message to Doug Rogers <10-20-91 01:01> Sue Widemark wrote:
SW>  >false on the face as you have done cannot go unchallenged.
SW>  .
SW>  It has been observed by psychologists that people who have a
SW>  religious orientation tend to deal with disability and age better
SW>  than those who don't.  Also, Bill W., the founder of AA makes a
SW>  rather impressive case that atheistic beliefs caused alot of his
SW>  problems.  People who join AA and embrace the Deistic orientation
SW>  tend to deal with their lives better than they did before joining.

But, of course! They are so well hypnotized. The same can be said of people
on Thorazine! AA gives STRUCTURE, as does religion. Nothing really wrong
with that, particularly since the average IQ is 100 (a tautology, I know!
:-) All you got to do is joing this neat family of people who will listen to
you, nurture you, and understand your terrible problems with reality.
Besides, if you believe it's a disease, then it really isn't your
responsibility anyway. Only problem is when these folks demand everyone else
pop these Thorazine pills, too. Frankly, I';d ratehr be kidnapped by a grey.

--
Michael Schuyler - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: abductions
Date: 25 Oct 91 23:12:00 GMT


 MS> But, of course! They are so well hypnotized. The same can be said
 MS> of people on Thorazine! AA gives STRUCTURE, as does religion.

Sure, along with the military, prison, and the Fortune 100.

 MS> Nothing really wrong with that, particularly since the average IQ
 MS> is 100 (a tautology, I know! :-) All you got to do is joing this
 MS> neat family of people who will listen to you, nurture you, and
 MS> understand your terrible problems with reality. Besides, if you
 MS> believe it's a disease, then it really isn't your responsibility
 MS> anyway. Only problem is when these folks demand everyone else pop
 MS> these Thorazine pills, too. Frankly, I';d ratehr be kidnapped by a grey.
Does this have anything to do with abductions or abduction research?

If alcoholism, drug dependency, deism, and/or diminished responsibility have a
high profile in abduction reports/regressions, I'd love to see some evidence.

If not, I hope we can leave the railing about pill-pushing to the
Scientologists.

Best,
  Clark




--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Schuyler)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 27 Oct 91 22:56:00 GMT

In a message to Michael Schuyler <10-25-91 16:12> Clark Matthews wrote:
CM>  a grey.
CM>  Does this have anything to do with abductions or abduction research?
CM>
CM>  If alcoholism, drug dependency, deism, and/or diminished
CM>  responsibility have a high profile in abduction reports/regressions,
CM>  I'd love to see some evidence.
CM>
CM>  If not, I hope we can leave the railing about pill-pushing to the
CM>  Scientologists.

Clark,
  To get a full sense of my post you might want to page back and see what it
is a response to, then you might go a little easier on me. I suppose this
has as much to do with abduction research as my dealings with the NIS have
to do with UFO research, which you have asked me to elaborate on.

Cheers,
--Michael

--
Michael Schuyler - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Doug Rogers)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 26 Oct 91 02:26:18 GMT


 > .
 > I didn't feel your message was attacking at all.  I have
 > expressed the  fact that what I posted was my impression
 > from the books I had read. I  am interested in reading the
 > 'other side' and would be interested in  your presenting
 > some evidence to refute what I have stated.
 >
What you have stated are your unsubstantiated opinions.  How am I to refute
them?  Your response still lacks specific evidence.  I would suggest that any
"evidence" based on an unprovable "belief system" is going to be called suspect
by any scientifically based researcher, myself included.

It is not my place to "refute" a charge which has had no evidence presented.
Your citation to the AA founder is an interesting account of another single
person's experiences.  It does NOT show basis in fact.

--
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 32

                         Wednesday, November 13th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                 Re: abductions

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 8 Nov 91 07:37:00 GMT

>What you have stated are your unsubstantiated opinions.  How am I
>to refute them?  Your response still lacks specific evidence.  I
>would suggest that any
>"evidence" based on an unprovable "belief system" is going to be
>called suspect by any scientifically based researcher, myself
included.

So you say UFO's are more believable than God?  Interesting...

{sue} {Cheese Whiz BBS 602-279-0793 <300/1200/2400 baud}

--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



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                          Abduction Digest, Number 33

                         Wednesday, November 20th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                 Re: abductions
                                  David Jacobs
                                  David Jacobs

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Doug Rogers)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 15 Nov 91 08:34:49 GMT


 >
 > So you say UFO's are more believable than God?  Interesting...
 >

<ahem>

Did I say that?  No, I didn't.  And I think it is shameful of you to use such
a cheap shot in replying to me.  (and it WAS a VERY CHEAP shot).  This is the
same as asking me "When did you stop beating your wife?"

I will, however, address your comment.

Last time I checked, the most recent sighting of the deity by a large number of
witnesses is of somewhat greater antiquity than the current sightings of
Unidentified Flying Objects.  This is very convenient for your arguments: There
are no witnesses left to interogate.  The only thing we have to go on is a
record left by biased reporters who were eager to place their own
interpretation on events they could not explain.

Even if you wish to make the same assertions in connection with the large group
of scientists who are currently investigating unexplained aerial events, I am
left with the assertion that since the events we study on this network are
either current or of recent ventage, we have a significantly greater
possibility of getting at the truth of what these events really are than do
those who wish to explain it using ancient mythologies.

One of the cornerstones of logical thought is "Age is no argument for
accuracy."  Many of our beliefs were forged at a time when much less was known
than is now known.  If you wish to cling to such a belief, you must be
absolutely certain that no new facts have come to light that call the belief
into question.  This is impossible. Anyone who attempts to explain current
events with ancient philosophy is doomed from day one.

What I'd REALLY like for you to state is what your REAL AGENDA in posting here
is.  If it is to contribute factual information or rational analysis, then
please join us and do so.  If you are here to bible thump, allow me to
recommend any of a dozen fine Christian echos that would love to have your
posts.

I'm still waiting to hear something from you other than unfounded assertions
based on your religious beliefs.  I'm tired of wasting bandwidth on this
business.  Religious discussions ALWAYS end in a flamefest of the "my God and
beat up your God" variety, and have no place in a serious discussion such as
the one we are attempting to carry on.


--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: David Jacobs
Date: 16 Nov 91 05:01:03 GMT


For all of those wondering about the status of Dr. David M. Jacobs
as ParaNet (sm) abduction moderator, I post the following extracted
from a letter I just received:

"...As of now, I am not the ParaNet abduction moderator. The main
problem, as far as I can tell, is that getting a node for me in
Philadelphia has proved to be more difficult than had been thought.
The first one lasted for quite a while, but then something happened
to the fellow's hard disk who was running the node, and that was
that. Another node lasted a very short time, and I am not sure what
happened then, but I noticed that virtually nobody was using the
abduction bulletin board to talk with me. So, my guess is that it
died for lack of interest. Actually, I hope Michael Corbin can re-
establish a node because I thought it was fun while it lasted...

 ...Budd (Hopkins) and I would very much like to have a series of
training conferences around the country, but the pressure of work
(abduction and otherwise) have made that desire seem more and more
like only a dream. Perhaps after my book comes out in March we will
have some more time to put something like that into effect....."

(signed) David M. Jacobs

Come on people, let's get Dave back on line. It shouldn't be
THAT difficult. Perhaps he can be setup as a point?

Regards to all,

Sheldon

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: David Jacobs
Date: 18 Nov 91 13:22:00 GMT


 > Come on people, let's get Dave back on line. It shouldn't be
 > THAT difficult. Perhaps he can be setup as a point?

Thank you for posting an update for us, Sheldon.  As a matter of fact, we are
testing a new link in the Philadelphia area even as we speak and it should be
functional in very short order.

Mike

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                          Abduction Digest, Number 34

                          Thursday, December 5th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                 Re: abductions
                                   abductions
                               Abduction research
                                   abductions

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 27 Nov 91 04:22:00 GMT


 -=> Quoting Sue Widemark to Doug Rogers <=-

>What you have stated are your unsubstantiated opinions.  How am I
>to refute them?  Your response still lacks specific evidence.  I
>would suggest that any
>"evidence" based on an unprovable "belief system" is going to be
>called suspect by any scientifically based researcher, myself included.
 SW>
 SW> So you say UFO's are more believable than God?  Interesting...

There is currently more observational evidence to support the existence of
UFos as a phenomenon worthy of study than there is observational evidence
to support the existence of an alleged being, a supreme being...

John.

 ... Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence.
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Dieter Hummel)
Subject: abductions
Date: 22 Nov 91 08:33:00 GMT


 >
 > So you say UFO's are more believable than God?  Interesting...
 >

I would say, the probability that UFO's really exist is higher...

cheers
*Dieter*

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Abduction research
Date: 29 Nov 91 02:58:00 GMT

I would certainly support the call to see if we can get David Jacobs
online. I for one would certainly like to stimulate more discussion on
current abduction research. You may be aware that I have been
suggesting the investigation of psychological explanations before we
commit ourselves to more exotic explanations. However, this is only a
working, testable hypothesis. Whatever, the outcome the subject is
fascinating and demands research.

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: abductions
Date: 30 Nov 91 16:21:00 GMT


 >>
 >> So you say UFO's are more believable than God?  Interesting...
 >>

 DH> I would say, the probability that UFO's really exist is higher...


I would say they are both improbable...but UFOs are easier to look for. :)



--
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 35

                          Saturday, December 14th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                    Commumion
                                 Re: abductions
                                  Re: Commumion
                                 Re: abductions
                                   ASW Karten
                                 Re: abductions
                                 Re: abductions
                                      Bible
                                  The Watchers
                                    Strieber

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Aaron Harkins)
Subject: Commumion
Date: 6 Dec 91 01:41:26 GMT

Great book!
          ---+++++---
        (Aaron Harkins)
         ----+++++----

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From: [e-mail] (Bob Martin)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 9 Dec 91 06:29:00 GMT

I dn't believe in hassling atheists or agnostics; however, everyone
agrees that there are at the very least "principles" of some sort that
allow existence. I call the "principles" God. Sure, it smacks of
semantics, but give it some thought...you may reply that these
principles are not sentient nor self-aware, as most folks require of a
supreme being; but what is sentience? All of existence is the
"sentience" of the "principles"...maybe...
The thing is, if you give this argument any credence at all, you
acknowledge a -constant- presence of God...
--
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From: [e-mail] (Bob Martin)
Subject: Re: Commumion
Date: 9 Dec 91 06:36:00 GMT

A friend of mine bought a house near Whitley Streiber's (said friend is
also a writer). Streiber subsequently told a third party (who reported
back to my friend) that Streiber was convinced that said friend was
peering into Streiber's windows at night, trying to steal ideas. Have
you read any of Streiber's fiction? Like L.Ron Hubbard, Streiber was
writing some of the same stuff -as fiction- years before trying to pass
it off as fact.
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From: [e-mail] (Bob Martin)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 9 Dec 91 06:38:00 GMT

Whoops! I didn't realize that your quote came from the famous Sue
Wide-of-the-Mark when I wrote my reply. I suppose she'll accuse me of
the Pantheistic Heresy. I plead Guilty.
--
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Passler)
Subject: ASW Karten
Date: 30 Nov 91 00:34:00 GMT

Hallo,

kann mir irgendjemand sagen oedr besser vielleicht schreiben, wo man in
Deutschland ASW Karten (Stern, Kreuz, Wellenlineien usw.) bekommen kann?
Am besten natrlich in Berlin.

Vielen Dank im Vorraus,
                            Michael

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From: [e-mail] (Morgan David)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 10 Dec 91 08:16:00 GMT

AHH But what if one does not believe in a Supreme Being separate from
oneself.  What if they believe and therefore have proof to themselves
that GODDESS exists!   And what if they also have proof to themselves
that UFO's exist and abductions occur.  Whether or not anyone else
believes them is inconsequential, because you need prove nothing to no
one.
BB
Morgan

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From: [e-mail] (Morgan David)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 10 Dec 91 08:22:00 GMT

Thanks for your post!   I have a question for you.... Is it not
possible that the Gods of the Ancient peoples were perhaps
Non-terrestrial beings who were here at that time....we really have no
proof one way or the other, but it is theoretically possible, isn't it?
Morgan

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From: [e-mail] (Aaron Harkins)
Subject: Bible
Date: 12 Dec 91 05:00:39 GMT

The Bible is a very large book of UFO
stories.  Many things could be explained
by visitors from other planets.  Would
not we seem as gods to a primitive
culture with our science and medicine,
although beings capable of long distance
space travel would have a much more
advanced amount of science?

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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: The Watchers
Date: 13 Dec 91 03:45:00 GMT

Has any one read "The Watchers" by Raymond Fowler, or "Perspectives"
by John Spencer? If so, any comments?

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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Strieber
Date: 13 Dec 91 04:50:00 GMT

Bob, Hi, you asked about Striber's fiction writings. I read his book
"Cat Magic" which was published in 1987 by Grafton, of London England.
There are some parallels to "Communion" and "Transformation." Examples
are:-
1. Page 26 "One of her most treasured talents was the ability to have
detailed visualizations on demand. But they never came like this,
unbidden. And yet, despite the fact that she was healthy and not in
the least tired, she found herself in the grip of just such an
uncalled vision." Compare this to Strieber's entity visits and his
numerous comments on the detailed, coloured, 3D imagery he
experienced.

2. Page 141. Character Tom the Cat.
"He could feel the faint rush of microwaves from the newly installed
motion detector in the centre of the room...when he wanted Dr Walker
to come in here, he would trip the alarm, but not until then." Compare
this to the visitors ability to fail to trip Striber's burgular alarm
in his cabin.

3. page 288. The character Mandy is "dead" after being experimented
on. A fly lands on her and lays its eggs: "...in the cathedral of her
left nostril." Where do abductees reckon the needle is inserted, up
through the nose.

Bob, also worth looking out for is Strieber's latest novel: "The
Wild",1991 Futura books, London. It's about a man who turns into a
wolf. Some interesting comments in it about Earth and co-existing
entities-wolves.

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                          Abduction Digest, Number 36

                           Friday, December 20th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                    Re: Bible
                                  Re: Strieber
                                   abductions
                                    Strieber
                                   abductions
                                   abductions
                                 Re: abductions
                                    Research
                                    Research
                               Abduction Research
                                    Research

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bob Martin)
Subject: Re: Bible
Date: 14 Dec 91 16:57:00 GMT

Actually, primitives don't mistake more "advanced" societies for gods
in most instances; they simply consider them mortals with bigger magic.
An accurate perseption, in my view, since science is just another
religion (just as religion, before science, -was- science - and
-remains- science for some).
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Bob Martin)
Subject: Re: Strieber
Date: 17 Dec 91 03:01:00 GMT

Thanks for the info, though I was more interested in pointing out the
hazy line between fact and fantasy for Streiber, than I was in further
exploring it. The fact is, I don't car for his fiction much, and I'm
not sure that he's ever written any non-fiction <g>!
I'm not a complete skeptic, but Streiber strikes me as less plausible
than, say, Uri Geller.
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: abductions
Date: 17 Dec 91 05:10:00 GMT


 >  DH> I would say, the probability that UFO's really exist is higher...
 >
 >
 > I would say they are both improbable...but UFOs are easier
 > to look for. :)
 >

Sure -- the Belgian Air Force has some interesting tracking
tapes, for starters...

Best,
  Clark


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Strieber
Date: 17 Dec 91 05:17:00 GMT


 > Bob, Hi, you asked about Striber's fiction writings. I read
 > his book "Cat Magic" which was published in 1987 by
 > Grafton, of London England. There are some parallels to
 > "Communion" and "Transformation." Examples are:-

Interesting stuff -- I read his novels as an acquisitions editor
about 10 years ago (met him briefly at a couple of publishing
drink 'em ups) and I share your opinion.

A lot of the form-changing, manitou-like stuff he ascribes to
his "aliens" can also be found in The Wolfen, among other books.

A less-known fact is the unsavory reputation that attached itself
to Mr. Strieber and his wife in the 3 years prior to Communion.
They formed a literary consulting service for budding writers,
the principal was Mrs. Strieber, and several unsatisfied
customers left with complaints of a squeezed-out bestselling
author stealing ideas from unpublished folks.

Apropos you last comment...

 > Bob, also worth looking out for is Strieber's latest novel:
 > "The Wild",1991 Futura books, London. It's about a man who
 > turns into a wolf. Some interesting comments in it about
 > Earth and co-existing entities-wolves.

Yes, all present in his pre-UFO iconography.

So's the sinister secret government/private security firm stuff.

I think the Streiber story is 100% whole cloth.  (Holed cloth?)

Best,
  Clark


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: abductions
Date: 17 Dec 91 05:32:00 GMT


 > AHH But what if one does not believe in a Supreme Being
 > separate from oneself...

In other words, you're God?  Which god?  Jehovah?  Satan?  Lucifer?

Do you have to choose, or can you mix 'n match?   (I've always
though that belief systems should be like The Gap, yasee)

 > What if they believe and therefore
 > have proof to themselves that GODDESS exists!

Who dat??  More to the point, whut dat doin' in the UFO abductions echo???

 > And what if
 > they also have proof to themselves that UFO's exist and
 > abductions occur.

Wait, this is important!!!  If you have such proofs, please send
them immediately to Mr. Phillip J. Klass, c/o Aviation Week
Magazine, Washington, DC

Tell him Walt sent ya.

 > Whether or not anyone else believes them
 > is inconsequential, because you need prove nothing to no
 > one.

Three cheers for solipsism!  Hip Hip... huh?!?!?!

Thank You for Sharing That With Us!  And a very festive Sawain
to you and Mr. Goddess, and all the little smurfs, too.

Cheerio! -- And Very *Best* wishes to all the other folks at St.
Catherines!

  Clark


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: abductions
Date: 17 Dec 91 05:40:00 GMT


 > Thanks for your post!   I have a question for you.... Is it
 > not possible that the Gods of the Ancient peoples were
 > perhaps Non-terrestrial beings who were here at that
 > time....we really have no proof one way or the other, but
 > it is theoretically possible, isn't it?

We have very little proof today that they're non-terrestrial.
They could be extradimensional.

Best,
  Clark


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Carl Aztec)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 17 Dec 91 06:38:16 GMT


 > I dn't believe in hassling atheists or agnostics;
 > however, everyone agrees that there are at the very
 > least "principles" of some sort that allow existence.
 > I call the "principles" God. Sure, it smacks of
 > semantics, but give it some thought...you may reply
 > that these principles are not sentient nor self-aware,
 > as most folks require of a supreme being; but what is
 > sentience? All of existence is the "sentience" of the
 > "principles"...maybe...

Theosophy - well that's what it sounds like. The
Theosophical Society was started in 1875 by Mme. H.P.
Blavatsky.

One of the "fundamental propositions" is:
1. An Omnipresent, Eternal, Boundless and immutable PRINCIPLE, on which all
speculation is impossible ... beyond the range and reach of
thought.

(You're probably wondering about the other 2 propositions -
OK - here they are:)

2. The Eternity of the Universe in toto is a boundless
plane, periodically the 'playground of numberless Universes
incessantly manifesting and disappearing'...

(shades of alternate dimensions! but an interesting concept
especially coming from an 1875 woman)

3. The fundamental identity of all Souls with the Universal
Oversoul ... and the obligatory pilgrimate for every Soul
... through the cycle of Incarnation (or 'Necessity') in
accordance with cyclic and karmic law.

That Bob, is the sum total of my knowledge of Theosophy
however, there are many books available on the subject if
you wanted to persue it.

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Research
Date: 15 Dec 91 17:03:00 GMT

Is anyone in this folder actually conducting research into abductions?
There seems almost no discussion for which the folder was created. I'm
happy to chat to anyone who can swop abduction material.

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Research
Date: 18 Dec 91 15:14:00 GMT


 > Is anyone in this folder actually conducting research into abductions?
 > There seems almost no discussion for which the folder was created. I'm
 > happy to chat to anyone who can swop abduction material.

We will be joined soon by Dave Jacobs.  In the meantime, please start a
discussion about your research in Oz.

Mike

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From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Abduction Research
Date: 20 Dec 91 03:21:01 GMT

Hi Keith,

The following is a brief biographical profile of a possible
abduction case I have been investigating. It was composed by the
percipient. Please let me know what you think of this material. (sw)
_________________________________________________________________
*** NOTE ***  Personal names have been deleted
_________________________________________________________________
FAMILY HISTORY:

Percipient: Female, age 35, (Name Deleted) born 2/9/56 in Newport Beach,
CA - during a sizable earthquake.

Mother: (Name Deleted) Born 7/29/28 (deceased 11/14/82). Of English
and Creek Indian (Muskogee Nation) ancestry (though not verifiable;
suspect mother's father bought ancestry papers to cover Indian
roots). History of diabetes, heart disease, cancer in family. Died
from complications of diabetes. Was an educator, painter, and
numerologist.

Father: (Name Deleted) Born 12/9/09. Still living - residing in
nursing home, suffering from advanced Parkinson's disease. Of
Norwegian ancestry, first person in his family to marry out of his
nationality in 1000 years. History of diabetes, and neurological
diseases in family. Was a painter, educator and theosophist.

Siblings: Half sister from father's previous marriage - born
1/18/46
Half brother from father's previous marriage - born 6/6/47
Brother - born 11/14/58
Sister - born 2/10/60
Sister - born 8/21/64; deceased - died from neuroblastoma (Wilm's
Tumor)
_________________________________________________________________
MEDICAL HISTORY:

1) Complications from chicken pox at 6 months, went to lungs;
caused weak lungs - later developing into respiratory condition.
Hospitalized several times as a child with bronchial pneumonia.
2) Menses at age 10
3) Scarlet fever at age 12
4) Hospitalized with mysterious abdominal distension and pain at
age 16
5) Mysterious bleeding (bled for a month) at age 18
6) "Hysterical" episode at age 19. Found outside at night. Thought
a man was trying to cut out my baby (wasn't pregnant).
Hospitalized, given elavil and tranxene.
7) Pelvic inflammatory disease at age 20
8) Persistent allergies at all ages
9) Chronic nose bleeds and bleeding from ears (hemorrhaged both
eardrums at age 16).
10) Broken back at age 23
11) Unexplained tumors at age 23
12) Hospitalizes for mysterious tumors, abdominal distension and
pain, unusual blood count - doctors thought I had cancer twice that
year - age 24
13) Malaria at age 25
14) Recurring tumors at age 26
15) Pelvic inflammatory disease twice at age 27. Miscarriage.
16) Diagnosed with Candida albicans and Hypothyroidism at age 29.
17) Miscarriage at age 32
18) Diagnosed with diabetes at age 33
19) Complete hysterectomy at age 34
_________________________________________________________________
SEXUAL ABUSE:
1) Age 5: Molested by a neighbor boy.
2) Age 9: Molested by an elderly man who was a neighbor.
3) Age 11: Molested by a son of friends of the family.
4) Age 14: Forced seduction by a psychologist - was able to escape.
5) Age 22: Raped, drugged and held captive for 3 days by a
psychiatrist. Was not his patient. Didn't report it.
_________________________________________________________________
EXPERIENCES:

1) Night terror dreams since infancy
2) Age 3: Began playing with "light beings". Said that they were
"Jesus and his friends". Beings that emanated great amounts of
light (as a child, equated them with Italian holy pictures). My
parents let me roam on our property, unsupervised for hours.
3) Age 3: Became extremely afraid in the evening hours. Would
refuse to go to bed because I felt that there were people outside
my window waiting to take me away. I began bringing large cardboard
boxes into my room, so that I could hide from them. Sometimes the
fear would extend into the daylight hours. One day, I became lost
because I crawled into the crawlspace of our large two story
farmhouse, to escape "them". My parents were frantic! My father
finally rescued me from the bowels of the house, after a great
amount of the day had passed.
4) Age 4: Began awaking at night expecting to find spiders in my
bed. I became transfixed by them - to the point that my father
found me playing in a black widow's nest.
5) Age 6: Declared to an entire family gathering of 300, that I
would never have children. The same night, I saw a large ball of
light streak across the sky. My parents also saw it. They said:
"Never mind, it must be Santa Claus".
6) Age 8: Saw a large "angel" floating at eye level with me (I
slept on the top bunk of a bunk-bed) in the early morning hours.
I bound out of bed to tell my mother that St. Michael had just
visited me. She humored me...
7) Age 11: I was playing in a deserted farmhouse in Tennessee, with
a girlfriend - when we both suddenly realized we were in the middle
of a huge field of yellow flowers. It was strange. We hadn't
noticed it before (we had been playing for quite some time - and
the farmhouse had no doors or windows, so visually, it would be
difficult to miss). We became almost "drugged" with the discovery
and I said: "Every time I'm sad, I'll remember this field, for as
long as I live".
8) From 1976 to 1980, I did a lot of travelling throughout Northern
New Mexico. Every time I passed through Abique, Chama, or Questa
areas, I would feel extremely uncomfortable. I was strangely shaken
by these places, and every time I returned home I would turn on the
radio and hear reports of cattle mutilations in those same places,
at the same times...
9) Middle of October, 1980: I returned home late, after spending an
evening with friends (I had one drink and a puff on a joint, much
earlier, with little or no effect). I put my key in the lock and
was stunned by a powerful light. I looked to my right and saw an
immense ship, that covered my entire field of vision. I got a
sudden, but profound look at it! The next thing I remember is being
crouched in the corner of my portal, completely naked (but oddly
warm). I looked up to see all my clothes neatly folded and stacked
by the door, and the key still in the lock. I quickly gathered my
things, went inside, and noticed the clock. I was shocked to
discover 6 missing hours. I slipped into bed. The next thing I
remember was a deep voice in my head saying: "We are all ONE". The
next morning I told a couple of friends. They didn't believe me,
but begged me not to report it. We turned on the radio, just as the
disc jockey was announcing that there were 8 sightings of a UFO the
night before. I remained silent.
10) June 1986: My husband and I were caught in a large fog bank in
Arkansas. Upon emerging from it (we were driving a pick-up truck
and hauling a utility trailer), we saw a large day-glow green ball
fly across the sky, landing in a clump of trees to our right. The
next thing we remember is a coyote staring at us from the road,
with day-glow green eyes - the exact color of the flying ball. We
were not wearing watches and the truck did not have a clock. We
were very shaken, and ended up driving all night, to get the hell
out of Arkansas!
11) Santa Fe, NM, September 1988: Watching television one evening
when out of the corner of my eye, I saw a large, bright, purple
ball streak across the sky. Curious, I stood to catch a better look
at it. I saw it land beside the prison (a few miles away as the
crow flies). When it landed, it illuminated the entire sky for
about 2 seconds. Later that night, I bolted to a sitting position,
in bed. I felt that something was wrong with the house - I jumped
out of bed to discover that the front door was wide open. When I
awoke, my pillow case had blood on it. Both my husband and I were
having a lot of nosebleeds at that time. My ears were also bleeding
and I had strange marks on my body that I went to the doctor about.
She's ruled out fungus - she didn't know what it was. It was a
triangle, in the middle of a circle.
12) Grand Junction, CO, August 1989: I awoke in my motel room (we
were on holiday) to find two beings on top of the table, directly
in front of me. I pinched myself to make sure that I was awake.
Indeed I was! I walked over to them. I reached up to touch one of
them. The next thing I remember I was lying in bed, in the morning.
13) Newport, OR, Sunday, 12:30 A.M. - 3:24 A.M., 11/18/90: I was
watching Saturday Night Live. Paul Simon was on, I noticed the
time. I was alert and very much awake, but all of a sudden I was in
a dream with a friend and two men in black suits, escorting us to
a large silver disc. The next thing I remember was sitting back on
my couch, watching a show on UFOs.
14) Newport, OR, Saturday, 2 A.M. - 2:51 A.M., 12/1/90: I was just
getting into bed, when I noticed a strange, bright green line,
glowing above the curtains in the bedroom. I stood up and walked
over to it to investigate. I felt a "presence" in back of me. I
turned around and saw in the hallway mirror, a shadow about 3 feet
tall and whitish. I made a bolt, trying to catch it. The next thing
I know, I'm sitting up in bed looking at the clock.
_________________________________________________________________
COMMENTS:


After all these years of strange occurrences, my curiosity is
keener than ever, I've gone through stages of denial and complete
doubt. I've mentally investigated many possibilities that might be
causing such happenings - but, I am constantly haunted by dreams,
curious feelings (on all levels) and strange marks on my body - not
to mention chronic ailments of unknown origin. I'm not only
concerned about my experiences and their ramifications, but my
husbands role and safety through all this. I have been drug and
alcohol free for almost 8 years, and don't partake in caffeine or
tobacco either. My husband is equally strict with himself.
<EOF>

<I am most interested in your comments and questions on this case. You
may respond via this echo or netmail me at 1:11/50.>

Regards,
Sheldon Wernikoff---
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Research
Date: 19 Dec 91 15:34:46 GMT

In a message to All <15 Dec 91 10:03> Keith Basterfield wrote:

 KB> Is anyone in this folder actually conducting research into
 KB> abductions? There seems almost no discussion for which the folder
 KB> was created. I'm happy to chat to anyone who can swop abduction material.

Keith:

I wouldn't call it "research," so much as data-gathering at this point, but I
am somewhat reluctantly involved in talking with abductees and obtaining
hypnosis where I think it necessary. I say "reluctantly"; I am enjoying the
feeling of helping people who feel they have nowhere else to turn, but I am not
a trained researcher, psychologist, hypnotist or scientist, and cannot help
feeling that I may be in over my head. I am getting advice from others, and so
far I don't think I've done too much damage.

My opinion of abductions, based on what I've read and now what I've experienced
first hand (through my subjects), is that we seem to have something here, but
we still have a long way to go before we eliminate psychological causes. Much
of what I've heard sounds very much like dream-state material. Feelings of
bilocation, "floating", etc., puts me in mind of the OOBE material; bedroom
abductions bear marked similarity to "hagging" and other hypnogogic/hypnopompic
experiences. The only thing pointing to objective reality is the correlation
between accounts. The "anomalous scars" and "scoop marks" are not by any means
an indicator, since there is very little one-to-one correlation between any two
such incidents. One person will have one on the arm, one on the leg, another
under the armpit, one will have six pinpoints arranged in a circle, another
will have 4 arranged in a rough square. I would expect to see something along
the lines of the tell-tale tuberculosis test scar that some people have on
their upper arms. And the implants situation is a minefield of misinformation.
Every day I hear some rumor that "Dave's got one" or "Budd's got two" or
"Whitley sneezed and short-circuited a radio station" or something. If
thousands of people have been abducted, as we are led to believe, and a good
percentage have been implanted, we should have seen something solid by now.

I am very heartened, however, by what almost seems like a surreptitious mass-
exodus of psychologists into the abduction fray. Every month it seems I hear a
new name with capital letters after it coming into the field. John Mack, for
example, and Georgetown psychiatry professor James Gordon.

I might use this message to ask any and all, what IS the current state of
abduction research, as far as is known? Is my perception of growing interest by
the mental health community correct? Is Robert Baker the only recognized
psychology authority to pooh-pooh the whole field? Are the TREAT conferences
anything worth crowing about?

Thanks for your message, Keith.

Jim

--
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 37

                          Wednesday, January 1st 1992

Today's Topics:

                                 Re: abductions
                                Parallel research
                                    Strieber
                               Abduction Research
                          Re: Non-Terrestrials as Gods
                                 Re: abductions
                                 Re: abductions
                               Abduction Research
                          Re: Non-Terrestrials as Gods
                               Abduction research
                               Abduction research
                              reply to your message
                                 Re: abductions
                                 Re: abductions
                                 Re: abductions
                               Abduction Research
                               Abduction research
                               Abduction Research
                                    Strieber
                                 Re: abductions

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bob Martin)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 20 Dec 91 23:27:00 GMT

Carl, about fifteen years ago, I engaged a roommate service, and wound
up sharing an apt. with the president of the NY Theosophical Society!
So I am somewhat familiar with Mdme. Blavatsky & her followers. My
impression is that most of the validity in Theosophical thought is
drawn from Eastern sources. I later worked for Samuel Weiser Books, a
firm that publishes and distributes occult works, and as a result
became aquainted with, and to some extent involved in, such varied
philosophies as Gurdjieffism, Crowleyism, Sufism (the
intellectual/philosophical strain, not the ecstatics), Buddhism (left
hand path) (that's a joke - I'm not certain people who use that term
know what it means), and have some knowledge of quite a few other
off-center philosophies. What I saiin my earlier message is only
something that I arrived at by logic, after hearing too much of this:
"I don't believe in God, but I do believe in some kind of force," or "I
don't believe in God because I think everything can be explained by the
laws of nature."
It bothers me that such people are to intellectually timid to use the
word "God" to refer to that force, or to those rules. The problem, I
think, is that today's religions were formulated at a time when science
as such did not exist, and the social purposes that we now give to
science were the province of religion; dogma's interplay with mystery
has since been replaced by fact and theory...to my mind, these are the
same.
Thanks for the note...despite my one-time proximity to the NYTS pres, I
doubt if I could have come close to such a succinct summation of their
principles.
--
Bob Martin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Parallel research
Date: 20 Dec 91 04:52:00 GMT

The other day I came across a book by R A Gardner (1991) titled "Sex
Abuse Hysteria:Salam Witch Trials Revisited." Published by Creative
Therapeutics, Cresskill. Gardner is listed as a Clinical Professor of
Child Psychiatry at Columbia University. Two portions of it on pages
99-100 caught my eye, being relevant to abduction research.
"A recent development in the field of psychotherapeutic psychitry is
the "uncovering" of early sex abuse that the patient never realized
took place. This has been very much in vogue during the last few
years. Sometimes the process starts with the psychiatrist "suspecting"
sex abuse on the basis of allegedly derivative statements and symptoms
that are "suggestive" of early childhood sex abuse. When the patient
expresses puzzlement and even disbelief, he (she) is encouraged to
enter into a more meaningful and deeper (sometimes on the couch)
therapy in order to "uncover" these lost memories. Human beings,
suggestible and gullible animals that we are, are likely to comply
with the psychitrist's prediction and provide the psychiatrist with
the "lost" material." Later on page 100:-
"Interestingly, an even more recent development is the suspicion by
patients-arising within themselves-that they may have been sexually
abused and were not aware of it."
Interestingly, these developments have occurred in abduction research
in recent times. Have you had an unexplained nosebleed, dreams of
aliens? Then perhaps you should consider regression to determnine if
you have been abducted!

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Strieber
Date: 20 Dec 91 05:16:00 GMT

Thanks for the reply. Farewell Strieber. Who will come along next?

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Abduction Research
Date: 22 Dec 91 03:33:01 GMT


In a message to Keith Basterfield <19-Dec-91 08:34>
Jim Speiser wrote:

JS> My opinion of abductions, based on what I've read and now what
JS> I've experienced first hand (through my subjects), is that we
JS> seem to have something here, but we still have a long way to go
JS> before we eliminate psychological causes.

   Very well put Jim, with "seem" being the keyword. What's
   interesting to note is the fact that so many of us appear to be
   unequivocally convinced of the corporeal reality of abductions,
   even though we do not yet possess equally convincing
   confirmation of this actuality.

   It is my perception, through the admittedly modest number of
   individuals I have worked with, that the etiology of the
   abduction experience can, in a statistically significant number
   of cases, be traced to varying degrees of psychopathological
   affliction and fantasy proneness. Although I am certainly not
   qualified professionally, I vehemently disagree with clinicians
   such as Dr. Rima Laibow, who asserts she has found very few
   deviations from the accepted psychological "norm" in her
   subjects. By no means am I stating that all abduction cases are
   the result of externalized metaphor, but I do believe that
   many, if not most, can be resolved through psychological
   mechanisms.

JS> The only thing pointing to objective reality is the correlation
JS> between accounts.

   The situation gets complicated here too Jim. It depends on what
   you mean by "correlation between accounts". I know there's no
   such thing as a ufological virgin today, so correlations such as
   ashen gray bug-eyed beings, blue beams, and multicolored lights
   just don't make it for me. If we were to begin seeing multiple
   subjects world-wide drawing complex glyphs that matched exactly,
   that would be a great deal more persuading evidence. I know that
   a few researchers such as Hopkins, Jacobs, and Rhodeghier claim
   to be privy to such data, but until I can make my own
   confirmation, I can only regard this as hearsay


JS> I might use this message to ask any and all, what IS the
JS> current state of abduction research, as far as is known?

   Obviously, not enough work is being done, primarily due to a
   lack of funding. Many abductees go without treatment simply
   because they can not afford it. Others choose to forego therapy
   due to the social stigma often associated with psychological
   counseling. Research organization and structure is deficient,
   although improving markedly. The secretive nature of the
   abduction researcher has got to change. If I hear one more
   time..."Sheldon, I'm working with a bona-fide abductee - but I
   can't reveal any of the details to you yet"...I'm going to put
   my head through my CRT! <g>

   Yes Jim, we've got a long way to go, but we're getting there. I
   hope Keith Basterfield, Mark Rhodeghier, Dave Jacobs <and the
   rest of you listeners out there> will jump in here and keep this
   thread alive. Thanks Jim, and Thanks Keith for taking the
   initiative.

   Take care,

   Sheldon

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Non-Terrestrials as Gods
Date: 22 Dec 91 03:17:00 GMT

Hi Morgan,

If you'd like to see some good theories on non-terrestrials as gods for
ancient people, look into any one of the 5 books written by Zecharia
Sitchin.  I'm currently reading Book One of "The Earth Chronicles" and
it is excellent.

Let me know if you want a brief paragraph on these  books.

Regards,

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 22 Dec 91 03:28:00 GMT

Hi Clark,

You said something like this regarding aliens:  We have little proof
that they are non-terrestrial, but they might be inter-dimensional.

Sorry, have never gotten the hang of quoting on this BBS...

But my SERIOUS question is:  What if they are from another dimension?
Are there planets in other dimensions?  Can anyone tell?  Does anyone
know?  Does that complicate things more if Aliens are from another
dimension, rather than another solar system?  How does one get  to
another dimension and back?

Take your time to answer...  <:-)

More Merry Eggnogs to you,

Linda

--
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From: [e-mail] (Morgan David)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 20 Dec 91 02:12:00 GMT

Whose to say whether or not extraterrestrial and extradimensional can
be equated.
M

--
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Abduction Research
Date: 23 Dec 91 04:24:33 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <21 Dec 91 20:33> Sheldon Wernikoff wrote:


 SW>   It is my perception, through the admittedly modest number of
 SW>   individuals I have worked with, that the etiology of the
 SW>   abduction experience can, in a statistically significant number
 SW>   of cases, be traced to varying degrees of psychopathological
 SW>   affliction and fantasy proneness. Although I am certainly not
 SW>   qualified professionally, I vehemently disagree with clinicians
 SW>   such as Dr. Rima Laibow, who asserts she has found very few
 SW>   deviations from the accepted psychological "norm" in her
 SW>   subjects. By no means am I stating that all abduction cases are
 SW>   the result of externalized metaphor, but I do believe that
 SW>   many, if not most, can be resolved through psychological
 SW>   mechanisms.

Sheldon: Do you have any clinical analysis to back you up on this, or are you
going on your own perceptions? Not arguing with you, mind you. I will reserve
further comment for now, but I think we'd better take this up in RESEARCH.


 >JS> The only thing pointing to objective reality is the correlation
 >JS> between accounts.

 SW>   The situation gets complicated here too Jim. It depends on what
 SW>   you mean by "correlation between accounts". I know there's no
 SW>   such thing as a ufological virgin today, so correlations such as
 SW>   ashen gray bug-eyed beings, blue beams, and multicolored lights
 SW>   just don't make it for me.

While I tend to agree, there IS more to it than that, as I'm sure you're aware.
There were many correlations before Communion, before The Andreasson Affair,
and before Close Encounters. Also, the correlations are not just in description
of the aliens, but as Bullard has pointed out, in the order of events, which is
still not widely known. And there are the "hidden" elements, which Hopkins et
al are sitting on, and they are not just limited to exoglyphs. I was made aware
of one of these elements before taking on a case, and damned if it didn't crop
up as predicted. So while there is perhaps not enough here to go to the
National Academy of Sciences with, there is enough to justify serious inquiry.


 SW>   subjects world-wide drawing complex glyphs that matched exactly,
 SW>   that would be a great deal more persuading evidence. I know that
 SW>   a few researchers such as Hopkins, Jacobs, and Rhodeghier claim
 SW>   to be privy to such data, but until I can make my own
 SW>   confirmation, I can only regard this as hearsay

Dave should be joining us shortly; he may even be reading this. If so, you
might consider contacting him or Mark Rodeghier to be brought into the loop. I
myself have not seen more than a small sample of exoglyphs, not enough to make
up my mind either, but I have been assured that they will be made public in the
(near?) future.


 >JS> I might use this message to ask any and all, what IS the
 >JS> current state of abduction research, as far as is known?

 SW>   Obviously, not enough work is being done, primarily due to a
 SW>   lack of funding. Many abductees go without treatment simply
 SW>   because they can not afford it. Others choose to forego therapy
 SW>   due to the social stigma often associated with psychological
 SW>   counseling. Research organization and structure is deficient,
 SW>   although improving markedly. The secretive nature of the
 SW>   abduction researcher has got to change. If I hear one more
 SW>   time..."Sheldon, I'm working with a bona-fide abductee - but I
 SW>   can't reveal any of the details to you yet"...I'm going to put
 SW>   my head through my CRT! <g>

There is every reason to keep identities a secret, but no reason that I can see
to keep mere account details under wraps, as long as there is nothing to
identify the percipient.

 SW>   Yes Jim, we've got a long way to go, but we're getting there. I
 SW>   hope Keith Basterfield, Mark Rhodeghier, Dave Jacobs <and the
 SW>   rest of you listeners out there> will jump in here and keep this
 SW>   thread alive. Thanks Jim, and Thanks Keith for taking the
 SW>   initiative.

Ditto.

Like I say, some of the issues raised are going to have to be taken up in
RESEARCH.

Jim

--
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From: [e-mail] (Morgan David)
Subject: Re: Non-Terrestrials as Gods
Date: 24 Dec 91 00:46:00 GMT

I believe I know the book you are referring too.   I will check the
series out when I get back to Toronto

--
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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Abduction research
Date: 24 Dec 91 03:44:00 GMT

Thanks for your case study Sheldon. Where to start? It is interesting
that we are now discovering that abductions are not "simple." Many of
them are lifelong interactions between a person and entities. In this
case, numerous episodes of "missing time" and visiting entities are
given. After digging into fantasy-prone personality research and
noting the correlation with childhood abuse, this lady's abuse history
is horrific.
So, could we argue a psychological explanation? Her mind splits to
cope with the traumas of sexual abuse-along the lines of multiple
personality victims? Or do we argue reality level event? It all did
really happen? I guess firstly I'd like to see a person recounting
this story be willing to undergo a full psychological analysis,
including FPP test protocols to see how she fares.
Were there any paranormal events in her life, and if so to what
degree? It seems that many abductees have above average interaction
with the paranormal, e.g poltergeists.
Anyway, thanks for the data Sheldon. I'm going away to ponder it some
more.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Abduction research
Date: 24 Dec 91 03:57:00 GMT

Thanks for your thoughts Jim. It is good to see qualified health
professionals getting involved in the field, it can only benefit
research as a whole. One of the reasons Bob Bartholomew and I wanted
to get a piece on abductions into a peer reviewed Psych journal was
to stimulate some minds into staryting to look into it. So we were
glad to see our piece "UFO abductees and Contactees: Psychopathology
or Fantasy Proneness" appear in the July edition (1991 Vol 22 No 3 pp
215-222) of the US Journal "Professional Psychology: Research and
Practice." Some 3 years ago Budd Hopkins in reply to an article by
Sociologist Bartholomew and I, suggested we get out of our armchairs
and interview some abductees. Easier said than done in Australia.
Since then I have been involved with perhaps 20 Australian cases-used
regression in some and not in others. The two cases I have studied in
details are incredibly complex, lifelong accounts of interactions
with aliens. Both ladies, were sexually abused as children and carry
those scars with them today. The case I have done most research on I
wrote up in IUR Mar/Apr 91. The data indicates a mixed
subjective/objective explanation-not simply one way. I have worked
with people as both counsellor and researcher, as you say,
particularly when there is no one else to turn to. On the subject of
implants I've just conducted a literature review for an article I've
submitted to the IUR. Lots of hearsay, damm little evidence. However,
the Richard proce case is intriguing. Has anyone gotten a report from
David Pritchard at MIT who analysed the implant? Would make a good
interview article for UFO Magazine, Omni or IUR.
UFORA published a short catalogue of abduction and misisng time
abstracts last April. If you'd like me to mail you a copy, please give
an address. Same for anyone else who reads this.
--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: reply to your message
Date: 28 Dec 91 21:48:00 GMT

You wrote to me:

"Did I say that?  No, I didn't.  And I think it is shameful of you to use
such a cheap shot in replying to me.  (and it WAS a VERY CHEAP shot).  This
is the same as asking me "When did you stop beating your wife?"

I didn't mean to make a 'cheap shot'.  I guess I was looking for a good
rebuttal from you.

>What I'd REALLY like for you to state is what your REAL AGENDA
>in posting here is.  If it is to contribute factual information
>or rational analysis, then please join us and do so.  If you are
>here to bible thump, allow me to recommend any of a dozen fine
>Christian echos that would love to have your posts.
>
>I'm still waiting to hear something from you other than unfounded
>assertions based on your religious beliefs.  I'm tired of wasting
>bandwidth on this business.  Religious discussions ALWAYS end in
>a flamefest of the
>"my God and beat up your God" variety, and have no place in a serious
>discussion such as the one we are attempting to carry on.

I understand your concerns (think I have responded to a few people who
were merely interested in changing my point of view in a similar
manner) but I was truly looking for information and asking the type of
questions I am asking is often a good way of smoking out _if_ there
_is_ any information to be found.

UFO's in general have fascinated me since the age of nine.  I have read
a lot of books - most I could get my hands on.. And the abduction seems
a rather interesting occurance within the general UFO category.  The
Barney and Betty Hill book seems the flagship of the fleet as far as
documented information although later information seemed to
indicate that some facts had been left out which would have, if
included, shed some doubt on the creditability of this incident.

It's just that in all my reading, I have not come across any
information which leads me to believe that aliens have truly visited
our planet.  I do believe, as taught in our astronomy class, that there
could be as many as 1400 planets in our solar system alone which would
have the ability to support carbon based life (life as we know it).

By the way, I have, in the 29 years I have been a Catholic, questioned
the Catholic church much worse than you have seen me question things
here... and have always received excellent answers which is why I am
still a Catholic today (converted at the age of 18).

And I would not be welcome on the Bible echos (some of which I am
accessing already).  My brand of Christianity, Catholicism, is not
popular among fundamentalists and much Catholic bashing goes on there..
probably much more Catholic bashing than UFO bashing!

Sorry if I offended you... I am just searching for information.

{sue} {Cheese Whiz BBS 602-279-0793 <300/1200/2400 baud}

--
Sue Widemark - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 28 Dec 91 21:55:00 GMT

>SW>  It has been observed by psychologists that people who have a
>SW>  religious orientation tend to deal with disability and age better
>SW>  than those who don't.  Also, Bill W., the founder of AA makes a
>SW>  rather impressive case that atheistic beliefs caused alot of his
>SW>  problems.  People who join AA and embrace the Deistic orientation
>SW>  tend to deal with their lives better than they did before joining.
>
>But, of course! They are so well hypnotized. The same can be said
>of people  on Thorazine! AA gives STRUCTURE, as does religion. Nothing
>really wrong  with that, particularly since the average IQ is 100
>(a tautology, I know!
>:-) All you got to do is joing this neat family of people who will
>listen to  you, nurture you, and understand your terrible problems
>with reality.  Besides, if you believe it's a disease, then it really
>isn't your  responsibility anyway. Only problem is when these folks
>demand everyone else  pop these Thorazine pills, too. Frankly, I';d
>ratehr be kidnapped by a grey.

Sorry but your 'average IQ' of a religionist is off.  For one thing,
over 60% of MENSA, a high IQ society, claims a belief in God!  And in
reading some of the literature within the Catholic church, you find
that many many highly intelligent people have chosen to be deists and
even Christians.

Thorazine is not a good comparison either... it dulls your mentality
while people who have converted to Christianity report sharpened
senses.  And Christians who feel that God will forgive them, _can_
really take responsibility for their actions unlike others who must
hide from the reality of many of their actions due to the pain
involved.

I am not saying anyone should run right out and convert but to post a
message such as yours, is not 'the look' either... I felt compelled to
correct your rather superficial and unknowledgible view of
Christianity!

{sue} {Cheese Whiz BBS 602-279-0793 <300/1200/2400 baud}

--
Sue Widemark - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 28 Dec 91 21:57:00 GMT

>What you have stated are your unsubstantiated opinions.  How am I
>to refute them?  Your response still lacks specific evidence.  I
>would suggest that any
>"evidence" based on an unprovable "belief system" is going to be
>called suspect by any scientifically based researcher, myself
included.
>
>It is not my place to "refute" a charge which has had no evidence
>presented.
> Your citation to the AA founder is an interesting account of another
>single person's experiences.  It does NOT show basis in fact.

This seems evasive which leads me to believe there _is_ no good
argument for 'your side' other than unproven anecdoctal evidence from
highly impressionable, emotional witnesses.  OK.. that tells me some
information also.  Thanks...

--
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From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 28 Dec 91 22:04:00 GMT

>There is currently more observational evidence to support the existence
>of UFos as a phenomenon worthy of study than there is observational
>evidence  to support the existence of an alleged being, a supreme
>being...

'observational evidence' is considered to be scientific observation,
using the scientific method and double blind studies etc.  If you are
talking 'observers' then there are actually far more observers who
reported seeing God in various ways over a period of 5000 years.  And
many documented their visions with doing amazing things etc. etc.

The two are really not comparible although I have noticed that UFOLOGY
seems to replace religion in some of its devotees... the modern
mythology of a technological age which in actuality, is a return to
'old fashioned' paganism with a different  covering....

What I am looking for is the SCIENTIFIC evidence. IF you have any to
offer, I would be interested in seeing it.. or seeing a reference...
thanks...


--
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From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Abduction Research
Date: 29 Dec 91 06:00:01 GMT



In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <23-Dec-91>
Keith Basterfield wrote:

KB> After digging into fantasy-prone personality research and
KB> noting the correlation with childhood abuse, this lady's abuse
KB> history is horrific.

 I absolutely concur on that point Keith. There's more, but I'm
 told we'll have to take up further details in RESEARCH.

KB> So, could we argue a psychological explanation? Her mind splits
KB> to cope with the traumas of sexual abuse-along the lines of
KB> multiple personality victims? Or do we argue reality level
KB> event? It all did really happen?

 Being consistent with correct scientific method, I think we're
 obliged to first consider the more temporal psychological
 interpretations, before moving on to the exotic. In the cases
 where the mundane (although that term may be understatement, even
 for psychological causation) can be ruled out, we might be on to
 something of greater implication.


KB> Were there any paranormal events in her life, and if so to what
KB> degree?

 She and her parents were/are involved in metaphysics and
 theosophy. She has described a number of "ghost" visitations, and
 a multitude of psychic "coincidences".

 The following is an extract she had written describing an event at
 12 years of age. "...My mother and I were in Memphis with my baby
 sister who was dying of cancer (she was receiving care at St
 Jude's). It was, naturally, a very stressful time for the entire
 family -- I was probably _too_ close and prematurely mourning my
 sister (who also saw many 'Angels' through her years - some with
 strange black suits). But I did find a great solace playing with
 a girl my age in the country, on occasion. One weekend, we were
 playing in an old, abandoned share-cropper's cottage. For some
 reason, it took us a while to notice that the shack was situated
 in the middle of an immense field of bright yellow daffodils and
 Jonquils. When we finally noticed, we were filled with rapture -
 running, laughing, picking flowers -- filled with the beauty of
 the moment. To this day when I'm blue, I think of that field and
 I am filled with warmth and feelings of security...."

 Any thoughts on this excerpt Keith?

 Take care,

 Sheldon



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From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Abduction research
Date: 29 Dec 91 16:58:35 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <23 Dec 91 20:57> Keith Basterfield wrote:

 KB> Thanks for your thoughts Jim. It is good to see qualified health
 KB> professionals getting involved in the field, it can only benefit
 KB> research as a whole. One of the reasons Bob Bartholomew and I
 KB> wanted to get a piece on abductions into a peer reviewed Psych
 KB> journal was to stimulate some minds into staryting to look into
 KB> it. So we were glad to see our piece "UFO abductees and
 KB> Contactees: Psychopathology or Fantasy Proneness" appear in the
 KB> July edition (1991 Vol 22 No 3 pp 215-222) of the US Journal
 KB> "Professional Psychology: Research and Practice." Some 3 years

Great...we need more exposure in the "pro" rags.


 KB> ago Budd Hopkins in reply to an article by Sociologist
 KB> Bartholomew and I, suggested we get out of our armchairs and
 KB> interview some abductees. Easier said than done in Australia.
 KB> Since then I have been involved with perhaps 20 Australian
 KB> cases-used regression in some and not in others. The two cases I
 KB> have studied in details are incredibly complex, lifelong accounts
 KB> of interactions with aliens. Both ladies, were sexually abused as
 KB> children and carry those scars with them today. The case I have

Do you think there is a connection? I've not seen one in my research, but I may
be taking things too much at face value. There may be some "hidden" abuse in
some of the cases I've looked at.


 KB> done most research on I wrote up in IUR Mar/Apr 91. The data
 KB> indicates a mixed subjective/objective explanation-not simply one

Do you mean that the final answer will be a mixture of both, or for right now,
the data points both ways? Every objective event has subjective components,
remember...


 KB> way. I have worked with people as both counsellor and researcher,
 KB> as you say, particularly when there is no one else to turn to. On
 KB> the subject of implants I've just conducted a literature review
 KB> for an article I've submitted to the IUR. Lots of hearsay, damm
 KB> little evidence. However, the Richard proce case is intriguing.
 KB> Has anyone gotten a report from David Pritchard at MIT who
 KB> analysed the implant? Would make a good interview article for UFO
 KB> Magazine, Omni or IUR.

or Continuum...

 KB> UFORA published a short catalogue of abduction and misisng time
 KB> abstracts last April. If you'd like me to mail you a copy, please
 KB> give an address. Same for anyone else who reads this. --- FD 1.99c

Jim Speiser
8390 E. Cheryl Dr.
Scottsdale, AZ  85258
USA

Thanks!

Jim


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From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Abduction Research
Date: 31 Dec 91 05:21:01 GMT


In a message to Keith Basterfield <29-Dec-91 09:58>
Jim Speiser wrote:


KB> The two cases I have studied in detail are incredibly complex,
KB> lifelong accounts of interactions with aliens. Both ladies,
KB> were sexually abused as children and carry those scars with
KB> them today....

 JS> Do you think there is a connection? I've not seen one in my
 JS> research, but I may be taking things too much at face value.
 JS> There may be some "hidden" abuse in some of the cases I've
 JS> looked at.

    Jim (and Keith), evidence certainly seems to be pointing
towards a correlation between sexual/physical abuse and the
abduction experience. Determining whether this link portends a
shared psychological affliction, a possible prerequisite for
"alien" visitation, or both, should be paramount in our research
efforts.

   I do feel that there is great likelihood of "hidden" abuse,
since it is without question a difficult issue to introduce into
the therapist/percipient alliance. For example, in the case I am
involved with, nothing surfaced for close to two years, but when it
finally did, all hell broke loose.

   I imagine we should continue this discussion in RESEARCH, right
Jim?  But exactly where is RESEARCH anyway???

   Take care,

   Sheldon

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From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Strieber
Date: 25 Dec 91 00:18:33 GMT

In a message to Bob Martin <12 Dec 91 21:50> Keith Basterfield wrote:

 KB> Bob, also worth looking out for is Strieber's latest novel: "The
 KB> Wild",1991 Futura books, London. It's about a man who turns into
 KB> a wolf. Some interesting comments in it about Earth and
 KB> co-existing entities-wolves.

I was recently posted with excerpts from a magazine interview Strieber gave
prior to Communion (etc.) where he said he'd finished The Wild (or Wolfen,
don't remember which) prior to starting Communion...

Thanks, take care.
John.

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From: [e-mail] (Michael Schuyler)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 31 Dec 91 02:49:00 GMT

In a message to Michael Schuyler <12-28-91 14:55> Sue Widemark wrote:

SW>  >SW>  It has been observed by psychologists that people who have a
SW>  >SW>  religious orientation tend to deal with disability and age
SW>  Sorry but your 'average IQ' of a religionist is off.  For one thing,
SW>  over 60% of MENSA, a high IQ society, claims a belief in God!  And in
SW>  reading some of the literature within the Catholic church, you find
SW>  that many many highly intelligent people have chosen to be deists and
SW>  even Christians.

The average IQ is, by definition, 100, religious or not. My point, which you
have neatly skirted, is that structured religion has appeal particularly to
the uneducated or those of 'average intelligence.' I think the Mensa claim
is rather overblown for several reasons. Belief in the existence of a
supreme being does not equate to Christianity. And, for that matter,
membership in Mensa means you have passed a test and feel compelled to join
a so-called high-IQ organization, an interesting phenomenon in itsel4f. I do
believe there are many intelligent people who are religious and who have
well-considered views on the role of religion in our culture. I know some of
these people and respect them. I also know too many people of little thought
who are rabidly religious, and it is my observation that these people appear
to be hypnotized and seek in their religion the answer to all questions
great and small. I don't think it is an accident that the Bible Belt in this
country also just happens to be an area of the lowest educational
attainment.
SW>
SW>  Thorazine is not a good comparison either... it dulls your mentality
SW>  while people who have converted to Christianity report sharpened
SW>  senses.  And Christians who feel that God will forgive them, _can_
SW>  really take responsibility for their actions unlike others who must

I think you are perhaps correct. Thorazine is too modern. Opium would have
been a better term to use, as in "opiate of the masses."  People who smoke
pot and people who indulge in cocaine also report "heightened senses," which
turn out by objective measure to be rather less creative than the indulgers
might claim.

SW>  message such as yours, is not 'the look' either... I felt compelled
SW>  to correct your rather superficial and unknowledgible view of
SW>  Christianity!
SW>
That is laughable at best, unless you remove the words between superficial
and Christianity. I think Christianity is not alone in its appeal to
narrow-mindedness and superficiality. Witness Islam, another large cult. But
there is no fundamental difference save size between Christianity and
Scientology, Hare Krishnas, or any other organization that purports to take
care of you if only you will accept the "path" laid out before you.

My interest in this is not to debate Christianity. If you're interested in
that, I might suggest Steve Winter's Holy_Bible echo or some others. But the
cultish aspects of the religion have relevance to the UFO question quite
often, as several cults have come out of what were originally UFO
encounters. Jacques Vallee's account of the UMMO cult is the most recent
case in point, a cult that he says was specifically engineered to gauge
public and police reaction, that has grown into a group of serious
believers. We also have the recent case of Donna Butts, as reported in the
last issue of UFO Magazine, a person who melds together fundamentalist
Christian teachings with UFOs. Up here we have a group called UFO Contactees
International, a group of people who claim just as zealously as any
Christian that they are in contact with higher powers from other dimensions
who manifest themselves through UFOs. To go back a little further, the
Mormon religion owes its genesis to an encounter with an Angel, Moroni
(might have spelling wrong on the name) who gave Joseph some tablets in an
undeciperable language. But fortunately, this angel also had some magic
glasses which, when worn, provided an automatic translation. The account of
this encounter is classic-UFO. And the result is a thriving religion of true
believers.

The UFO literature is just full of this stuff. Eduard "Billy" Meier is
publishing a new book: "The Talmud of Jmmanuel" (Wildflower Press, 1992)
which is Meier's authorized translation of the origin of the ancient gospels
of Matthew and Mark. Go to any New Age convention and you can see a dozen
more of these cults, all so absolutely determined that salvation is through
their interpretation of reality. It is amazing the gullibility of people to
swallow this stuff. And when I hear so-called "saved" religious apologists
condemn these people, well, it's the pot calling the kettle black, one cult
to another.If they'd keep that to themselves, it wouldn't be so bad.
Unfortunately, these absolutist interpretations spill over to the rest of
us, destroying entire cultures and our freedoms in the process.

I certainly don't know of another field of endeavor that strives so hard to
be "scientific," yet attracts so much of the religious mumbo-jumbo as
explanation for the phenomenon. When the facts are few and far between,
that's where religion thrives.

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                          Abduction Digest, Number 38

                           Friday, January 10th 1992

Today's Topics:

                         UFO Contactee Center - Seattle
                                 Re: abductions
                       Re: UFO Contactee Center - Seattle
                               Jerusalem Syndrome
                                     Advice
                                 Re: abductions
                                 Re: abductions
                                 Re: abductions
                                 Re: abductions
                                  Re: If Ufo's
                                 Re: abductions

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: UFO Contactee Center - Seattle
Date: 5 Jan 92 01:54:55 GMT

Hi Mike,

I've ben reading with interest all your posts with Sue Widemark.

You mentioned the UFO CC International based in Seattle.  There's a long
article in the recent edition of the UFO News Clipping Service publication on
Aileen and the UFOCCI in Seattle.  It seems to me that group in Seattle is
becoming more New Age and religion based .  Aileen even admits (according to
the article) that she thinks Elvis is still alive!  That right there shreds
all their credibility for me!

Why do so many of these contactees start delving into metaphysics and Eastern
religions, I wonder?  I'd like to ask Aileen and her group why haven't they
delved into an astronomy book instead?  They're looking for answers to aliens
in religion??  It seems to me that astronomy books would be a better place!

Mike, I'd like to send you that article (it was originally pub. in the SEATTLE
WEEKLY).  Would you be kind enough to post your address?  That article is a
real eye-opener.

Regards,

Linda


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From: [e-mail] (Doug Rogers)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 5 Jan 92 08:37:47 GMT

Your research into the Mensa nonsense is greatly appreciated.

Doug Rogers
Echo Coordinator

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From: [e-mail] (Michael Schuyler)
Subject: Re: UFO Contactee Center - Seattle
Date: 7 Jan 92 03:56:00 GMT

In a message to Mike Schuyler <01-04-92 18:54> Linda Bird wrote:
LB>  Mike, I'd like to send you that article (it was originally pub. in
LB>  the SEATTLE
LB>  WEEKLY).  Would you be kind enough to post your address?  That
LB>  article is a
LB>  real eye-opener.

Linda!
  Thanks so much for your offer. But, uh...I have the article already! It
was great. She lives in a trailer park near the Intl Airport flight path and
works for Boeing, I live just across the water from Seattle, have toyed with
the idea of going down there on a research project :-)  Maybe someday. I get
her publication, "The Missing Link," at least for this year until my
subscription runs out. Well, I just wanted to see what it was. Really! (It
wasn't my fault.) Thanks again...
--Michael

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From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Jerusalem Syndrome
Date: 8 Jan 92 15:11:04 GMT

I took the liberty of cross-posting this from ParaNet General. It may have
relevance to the abduction phenomenon.





      To:  Keith Basterfield          Message #:  2770
    From:  Sheldon Wernikoff          Submitted:  30 Dec 91 21:21:00
 Subject:  JERUSALEM SYNDROME            Status:  Public
Received:  No                             Group:  P_GEN (12)


The following article is from The Wall Street Journal, 12/30/91, published
by Dow Jones & Company, 200 Liberty Street, New York, NY 10281.
                  .............................

JERUSALEM SYNDROME MAKES SOME VISITORS BELIEVE THEY'RE GOD

Israeli Doctors Are Puzzled By the Temporary Illness;
Dinner With Two Elijahs ---  by Amy Dockser Marcus, staff reporter
                  .............................
  JERUSALEM - They come as tourists, hoping to sightsee and relax. But they
end up shouting prophecies from street corners, walking around naked, and
proclaiming themselves the Messiah.
  Local psychiatrists call the phenomenon "the Jerusalem syndrome", a form of
hysteria that turns 50 to 200 tourists every year, many of them previously
healthy, into would-be King Davids, Virgin Marys, and other biblical figures.
  "Jerusalem can literally drive some tourists crazy," says Yair Bar-El, the
director of Kfar Shaul, the government mental health center in Jerusalem
that, since the early '80s, has provided psychiatric care for all foreign
tourists afflicted with the illness.

IMAGE VS. REALITY

  Doctors aren't sure what causes the Jerusalem syndrome. Part of it is
probably just that people are awed to be in a place that psychiatrist Eli
Witztum, who has studied the syndrome, calls "the umbilical cord of the
world." But more than that, experts speculate that the enormous dislocation
that prompts people to believe they are biblical figures arises from the
shock that the image and reality of the city are so far apart. "People come
here expecting everyone to be wearing white robes and playing harps. Instead,
they find a city in tension," says Jim Jerrish, project director of Bridges
for Peace, a Jerusalem group promoting interfaith relations that sponsors a
number of tourist groups.
  Tourists expecting to reflect in the quiet of an ancient church are often
disappointed to find that it probably strides a traffic-choked roadway. Via
Dolorosa, with its Stations of the Cross, is lined with Vendors hawking
everything from Kodak film to cheap souvenirs. Most disconcerting is the fact
that Jerusalem, the fabled city of peace, lives in an almost constant state
of political stress.
  Jerusalem's 4,000 year old grip on the imagination of three major faiths
has always made the city a magnet for madmen and eccentrics. The English
woman who could be found on Mount Scopus waiting daily for the lords return
with a hot cup of tea and the Dutch countess who built a huge building in the
center of town to house the "hundred and forty and four thousand... children
of Israel" in the Book of Revelations are well established parts of city
lore.

SOME THINK THEY'RE SATAN

  Nonetheless, the modern version of this phenomenon doesn't occur just among
people with a history of psychiatric problems. Dr. Witztum, the Jerusalem
psychiatrist who has been studying tourists afflicted with the illness, says
that when a patient is admitted to Kfar Shaul, psychiatrists speak with the
patient's family and doctors about past medical history - and often discover
that they don't have prior psychiatric disorders.
  Gathering scientific data on the Jerusalem syndrome hasn't been easy.
"Someone who thinks he's the Messiah just doesn't have the time to fill out
a questionnaire," Dr. Witztum says. Still, a study of 89 former patients
released earlier this year by Dr. Witztum and others revealed that nearly a
third thought they were the Messiah. God came in a very distant second. Satan
was third. "People tend to stay within their own religions. Jews prefer
Abraham and King David. And we get a lot of Christians found wandering around
the desert thinking they're John the Baptist," says Dr. Witztum.
  The Jerusalem syndrome tends to strike very quickly. It took only five days
before a 33-year-old American vacationing here, a former Air Force cadet with
no history of psychological problems, exchanged his clothes for a sword. He
then ran naked, sword in hand, through the Arab quarter of the Old City
shouting that God had instructed him to cure the blind.
  A 41-year-old German tourist, a secondary-school teacher, walked into his
hotel's kitchen just a few days after arriving, declared that he was Jesus,
and then went to file a complaint at the police station when the cook
appeared skeptical.
  Some longtime residents of the city have even seen friends from abroad
transformed while on vacation in Jerusalem. Rabbi David Rosen, director of
interfaith relations at the Israel office of the Anti-Defamation League, once
bumped into a college friend - who had been "a very stable, normal English
public-school schoolboy" - standing outside a city gate dressed in sackcloth
and ashes and exhorting mankind to repent. "I tried to convince him that God
didn't want him to do this, but I didn't make any headway," says Rabbi Rosen.
  Mr. Jerrish of Bridges for Peace recalls a dinner party at a friend's house
where two guests were tourists who, it turned out, both thought they were
Elijah the Prophet. "They spent the whole dinner glaring at each other,
accusing the other one of being an imposter," he says.

FALSE PREGNANCY

  At Kfar Shaul, Dr. Bar-El brings in clerics, family members and local
consulate representatives to speak with his patients in an effort to get them
well enough to travel home. While most patients snap out of it after a few
days of treatment and return to normal, some are more difficult to handle.
One 36-year-old British woman, a London high school teacher, continued to
claim she was carrying the son of Jesus, even after doctors at the hospital
showed her physical exam revealed she wasn't pregnant.
  For the most part, the hospital is unable to do any follow-up once the
tourists go back home. But Dr. Witztum did correspond for several years with
one former patient, a man in his early 20s from Zurich. The man had been
taken to the hospital a day or so after visiting a Jerusalem church. "He had
stopped eating and was seeing Jesus Christ everywhere," Dr. Witztum says.
"When he was brought into the hospital, there was a strange light on his face
and an expression of elation. When I called his father, he was amazed. He
said his son was very shy and inhibited." Soon, the young man went back to
Switzerland, fully back to normal, and began studying at a university in
Zurich. For years, Dr. Witztum received Christmas cards from him.
  Dr. Bar-El says that when people snap out of the syndrome, they remember
the experience as very pleasant, and not traumatic. Still, Dr. Bar-El, whose
one last name means "Son of God," says he usually stops short of telling
patients they aren't who they think they are. After all, he says, "I'm not
sure the patient will be any happier when he realizes that he's not God."
                     ...........................
                           End of Article
-+-

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From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Advice
Date: 9 Jan 92 22:43:40 GMT

A situation has arisen here that I need some advice on. An "abductee" has come
to me with her story, some of which is consciously remembered and some of which
is buried. She has rejected hypnosis, as she does not trust it - too much
chance for confabulation. Yet she does have a sincere desire to find out the
meaning of her recollections. And I have *no* desire to force my own particular
-or any- agenda on her. She seems a prime candidate for a self-help group which
I am considering forming here, but I'm not sure that's wise until her
recollections have been explored in more depth.

I guess the big question is, what advice does one give a potential abduction
victim who has no desire for hypnosis?

Jim

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From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 10 Jan 92 10:54:00 GMT

>That is laughable at best, unless you remove the words between
superficial
>and Christianity. I think Christianity is not alone in its appeal
>to  narrow-mindedness and superficiality.

Right.  I am narrow minded and you (just as strong opinion) are not!
Now THAT is laughable or maybe one might cry because it's sad when one
accuses someone else of something of which _he_ may be guilty.

>My point, which you
>have neatly skirted, is that structured religion has appeal
particularly
>to the uneducated or those of 'average intelligence.' I think the
>Mensa claim is rather overblown for several reasons.

And just what do you base this claim on?  Your vast store of knowledge?
Oh yes, that must be it.  Like your great understanding of what
Christianity teaches.  If a surgeon had a similar vast store of
knowledge, all hapless victims who fell under his knife would DIE.  Why
can't you admit that YOU believe what YOU believe and I believe what I
believe and ... read my lips.. BOTH ARE VALID, OK?  If you say anything
else than that, then it is _you_ who are the narrow minded one, not
myself!

>I also know too many people of little thought
>who are rabidly religious, and it is my observation that these people
>appear to be hypnotized and seek in their religion the answer to
>all questions great and small.

Yes, and I know too many UFOnuts who are of little thought and as
superstitous as hell so should I conclude that UFOLOGY must appeal to
the uneducated superstitous fool?  That's the conclusion you are making
for religion!

>And, for that matter, membership in
>Mensa means you have passed a test and feel compelled to join a
>so-called high-IQ organization, an interesting phenomenon in itsel4f.

Elementary my dear Watson.  Being surrounded by fools, the idea of
being in a room which excludes a vast quantity of such fools is rather
appealing... quite appealing.  And I didn't 'pass' the test to get into
MENSA.  I took an IQ score from a previous test and submitted it.  It
far exceeds the qualification needed for MENSA (IQ 132), so you see I
am really not that impressed with the figure.

I came here to try and obtain some information.  I asked some searching
questions to try and extract this information from those supposedly in
the 'know' about these things.  I did not come here to be told I am a
narrow minded so and so or that my belief system stinks, anymore than I
expected to say that to someone else.  I had never found any REAL
positive information even providing reasonable suspicion that aliens
have visited and/or abducted.  I thought you folks could provide me
with such but instead I got attacked for daring to doubt the vast
quantity of anecdotal and somewhat not too believable data I have seen
in the past on this subject.

It's interesting to note that I asked the same searching questions
about the Catholic church but unlike here, I got very definitive and
intellectual answers.  So, laugh away at religion, you fools... right
now, it's looking a lot more convincing than your deal.  TTFN

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From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 10 Jan 92 11:03:00 GMT

>Please, stick to a scientific approach, or pass this echo by.  Further
>religious discussions will result in a second warning to get on
>subject here.
> A third warning will result in your being locked out.  This is
>part of the agreement you participate in by using these echos, and
>should be posted on the board through which you have access.
>
>Asking the researchers here to accept religious rationnalizations
>is NOT what this echo is about.

Oh, no freedom of speech here, right?  A scientific approach will knock
YOU out of the water as well.  In fact, it will knock you out of the
water much quicker than it will Christianity.  There is historical
proof the man Jesus existed.  There are many logical proofs that God
exists as well... these are so respected - Thomas Acquinas for
example.. that they are studied in secular universities.

Proof for UFOS and abductions is anecdotal.  This is NOT scientific.

(and they call ME narrow minded... hrumph.).  I just wanted to obtain
some information.  Are you saying I cannot question this but MUST
accept that yes, because a bunch of people said so-and-so, it must have
happened?  Even though there has been NO observable evidence and no
logical proofs thereof?  That is truly blind acceptance if I ever heard
of it.  Well, if one must blindly accept your deal and not question it
(and by the way, the scientific method does question ALL) then it is
not really 'scientific' you want me to be.  You want me to be a blind
believer.  You are worse than the fundies (I have never been locked out
of a fundamentalist board even though Catholics ain't their favorite
cup of tea).  But do as you wish.  I do have free speech.

(if anyone would like to discuss this on a FREE SPEECH BBS where people
don't get locked out for disagreeing or questioning... call:
{Cheese Whiz Wildcat! BBS 602-279-0793 <300/1200/2400}

{Sue}

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From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 10 Jan 92 11:15:00 GMT

(you're such a friendly group!)

>I called Mensa. I talked to their public
>information officer. I discovered your statistic is ERRONEOUS.

Well, whomever you talked to was not aware of this. And they DO have
stats... maybe he just was not bothering with you.  These stats were
published in the MENSA directory as a matter of fact and yes, it is
over 60 percent who claim a belief in God.  This is obtained from the
forms we fill out... oh, I see what might have happened.. you mentioned
a study so whomever you were talking to didn't think of the demography
which is obtained from the forms we fill out when we renew.

>Superficial and unknowledgeable is exactly how I would characterize
>your  understanding of this entire phenomenon. This is interesting
>for the rest of  us to see in that it shows such a poor grasp of
>the scientific method and  of basic logical principles. It also
>pretty well proves that your veracity  is at an all time low. Why
>should anyone believe anything you say when it has been shown you
>use untruths to bolster your argument?

No, you just didn't check the right thing because not being a member of
MENSA, you wouldn't have known about the demographic data.  I did a
check on it because I wanted to start a SIG for Catholics but wanted to
see if there would be any interest in it before I went through the
work.

A more intelligent answer to my claim from you would have been 'but
yes, that is lower than that of the general population'  (75-85 percent
claim a belief in God.. I wonder what percentage claim a belief in
UFO's)  I wonder what percentage of MENSA claims a belief in UFO's..
this would be more difficult to obtain because it's not a question
asked on the demographic data sheet we fill out for renewal.

And in all of this, you have insulted me, been rude about my belief set
but you have not PROVEN YOUR DEAL!  Now, my dear, what else could I
conclude but that there IS no proof.

I am obviously getting locked out of here. IF you want to provide
such proof, I am still interested.  This can be books or whatever.  If
you have such a thing (which was my original reasons for asking
searching questions), please do log on my BBS and post this proof.
Thank you.

{Sue}
{Cheese Whiz Wildcat! BBS 602-279-0793 <300/1200/2400}

--
Sue Widemark - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 10 Jan 92 11:17:00 GMT

>Your research into the Mensa nonsense is greatly appreciated.

Even if his
'research' was erroneous?  <snicker>

But of course.. it agrees with you, so it's great... <sigh>


--
Sue Widemark - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: If Ufo's
Date: 10 Jan 92 11:34:00 GMT

re: if UFO's exist...

That's a question I have asked a few times myself.  Perhaps someone
here will answer it...

--
Sue Widemark - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 10 Jan 92 11:45:00 GMT

Well hi there sweetness.  I did some checking myself and could not find
the 60 percent statistic I quoted in the lastest MENSA register.  But I
did find something of interest which I thought I'd share:

49 percent of Mensans claim a Christian orientation.  And only 7
percent are agnostic, and 3.6 percent atheist!   hahaha.. that's better
than the 60 percent!

Oh, and when you call to verify this, tell the public information
person that he can read this in the 1989 MENSA Register, page I about
the middle of the page.

TTFN

and I DON'T appreciate being called a liar... that is the rude-ist.
But you don't have to worry about being locked out of the echo because
you agree with the coordinator... *grin*

{sue}
{Cheese Whiz Wildcat! BBS 602-279-0793 - We don't do "Windows"}

--
Sue Widemark - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************

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Submissions DOMAIN        [e-mail]
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Mail to private Paranet/Fidonet addresses from the newsletters:
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****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************


                          Abduction Digest, Number 39

                           Monday, January 13th 1992

Today's Topics:

                                Abduction thread
                                  Re: If Ufo's
                              Re: Abduction thread
                                 Re: abductions
                                    I'm back.
                               Abduction research
                               Abduction research
                                    RESEARCH
                                   Abductions
                                    Research
                              Australian abductions
                             Australian abductions 2
                             Australian abductions 3
                             Australian abductions 4
                             Australian abductions 5
                                  Welcome Back!
                                    I'm Back.
                               Abduction Research
                                    I'm back.
                                Premature Births

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Abduction thread
Date: 10 Jan 92 16:02:12 GMT

Is it my imagination, or has this thread gotten a little out of control? I
think fouls have been committed on both sides. Sue, it was you who brought
religion into this discussion in the first place, and you do seem to be
steadfastly unwilling to examine the sources we have quoted for you, choosing
instead to point to that which you HAVE read and insisting that it doesn't
constitute proof. You also made some demonstrably unsupportable statements
regarding alcohol use and UFO perception. Mike, while I know how tempting it is
to bash religion, I think it sets a better example to try to steer the
conversation back on course. Doug, I don't think its proper to show support for
one user's arguments over another's while wearing your echo moderator's hat.

Can we start over? Sue thinks abductions are a reflection of an innate need for
religion among those who reject traditional forms. I don't think its necessary
to bash Christianity to counter this; its much easier to show that abduction
percipients run the gamut of religious belief, from Betty Andreasson Luca
(devout Christian) to "Lydia" (secular humanist). Furthermore, the effect of
the abduction experience is not to convert the percipient to one religion or
another, as might be expected, but to reinforce the percipient's previously
held beliefs, at least in the two cases I cited. Betty Luca is still a devout
Christian, and thinks her experience ratifies her beliefs. Lydia is still a
secular humanist, and eschews any spiritual explanation for her experience.

As far as abductions "proving" anything, I don't think anyone here is making
such a claim. The only claims being put forth on this echo regard what
abductions are NOT: according to our best information, they are NOT a generally
recognized form of psychosis or delusion. They MAY be related to
fantasy-proneness, as Basterfield et al have shown, and this is certainly a
viable avenue for inquiry.

I hope this gets us back on track.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: If Ufo's
Date: 10 Jan 92 21:15:00 GMT

Hi Sue,

Yes, I think UFO's do exist.  The problem is that, like most mysteries,
this one is unidentified.  We must keep in touch and share thoughts and
experiences, in my opinion, and we must not ridicule those who think
they have seem something truly unexplainable.

Best,

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Doug Rogers)
Subject: Re: Abduction thread
Date: 11 Jan 92 07:55:15 GMT

As always, Jim, your insights are appreciated.  I hope your post has the
desired result.  Mine certainly have not.

--
Doug Rogers - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Doug Rogers)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 11 Jan 92 08:01:58 GMT


 >
 > 49 percent of Mensans claim a Christian orientation.  And
 > only 7  percent are agnostic, and 3.6 percent atheist!
 >  hahaha.. that's better  than the 60 percent!

<ahem>
Can you spell "assumption"?  You "assume" that those expressing no religious
orientation are Xian.  I believe this is an unsupportable assumption.

Could we *PLEASE* move away from religion and get back on topic in this echo?
 Jim Spieser has posted a very rational suggestion as to avenues to persue.
Perhaps you would enjoy seeing where they go.

One last clarification.  It is my *function* here to attempt to keep the echos
"on topic".  That is to say, the topics labeled on the subscriber BBS's are to
be the topics discussed in the relative echos.  I would get on your case just
as quickly for a discussion of Mickey Mouse cartoons in this echo as I will
your religious discussions.  Your cries of "free speech" are totally out of
order.  There is regulation in *any* network.  Were there not, we, the sysops,
would be paying big bucks to move messages around (like this one) that have
nothing to do with the reason we subscribed to the echo.

Having said all of this can we PLEASE get back on the abduction issue? If you
have problems with this, take it up with your sysop and allow him/her to
discuss it in our sysop area.

NOT a warning.  Just a request.

--
Doug Rogers - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: I'm back.
Date: 9 Jan 92 12:14:15 GMT


 I would like to say hello to all my friends and colleagues again.  It
 seems that I have resurfaced after all these months.  I only have a few
 seconds left on the BBS so I will wait for some messages in the hopes of
 getting up an interesting dialogue on abductions and UFOs.

 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

--
David Jacobs - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Abduction research
Date: 6 Jan 92 03:59:00 GMT

Thanks for the "comments" on the paranormal aspects of that abduction
case you posted. The links between events with heavy emotional
overlay, and later use of these events to relive these emotions is
particularly relevant to abduction research.  Our brain has a
tremendous capacity to recall minute details/emotions/bodily
experiences of every moment we live. Think of people who have been
involved in an accident who can relive in real time the last few
seconds of an accident. Then move to an abduction researcher who says
that only a real event can trigger later emotional recall, i.e. post
traumatic stress disorder always has its roots in a real physical
event. It is a strong argument.
Regression hypnosis is utilised to probe deeeper into the mind of an
abductee who may remember something of an abudction. Under hyponosis
they recall the entire abduction, they scream, laugh and cry when
recalling the event.
Take another person who has vague feelings that they have lived
before, i.e. they have a past life. Regress them and you might
discover they were burnt at the stake as a witch. As they recall
burning/dying, under regression, safe in a chair in a room in 1992,
they scream, cry and show signs on their skin as if induced by heat.
In another instance what appear to be rope marks might show on their
skin. Later, it is conclusively show that their story matches the
storyline of a novel written in the 20th century. This emotional
evidence falls away, it is meaninglesss, because it was created by the
mind of the "past lifer."
Has any abductee been screened for past lives?
It seems to me that we should not just be researching abductions, but
tying it in to current research with out of body experiences, near
death experiences, and past life research. More in next message.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Abduction research
Date: 6 Jan 92 04:17:00 GMT

I wanted to explore the apparent association between the paranormal
and abductions a bit more. I have noted over the years that a large
number of researchers have commented on the association of paranormal
events and the UFO phenomenon in general but the abduction phenomenon
specifically. In the couple of cases here in Adelaide which I have
studied closest-in one case coming up to two years now, there were
numerous paranormal and abduction episodes scattered over the lifetime
of the abductee. In both instances there were associated poltergeist
phenomenon, prophetic dreams, precognition, out of body experiences,
and other unusual episodes. Now, poltergeist events are fairly
rare-for example 3% of the British population reckon they have
experienced poltergeists. Apparitions-some 11-14% of the population.
OBE;s say up to 10% of the population. Now by statistical chance one
particular person has a probability of 3/100
times 11/100 times 10/100 etc of having all the events happen to them.
For this particular person to also be an abductee which is a very
small percentage of the total population seems to be to indicate
something unusual about this individual. Interesting! Now if you
examine the mainstream psychological literature on the fantasy-prone
individual you will see that in Barber and Wilson's original 1981 work
they found that some 3/4 of FPPers had OBEs, saw apparitions etc.
Now, does that mean some individuals are open to paranromal events
including abductions? Do the real aliens zero in on psychic people?
Are FPPers really psychic or does their imagination create a belief in
them that these paranormal episodes occur?
The questions needing answering are numerous.
I'd like to see a standard set of questions about their paranormal
experiences given to all abductees when they are interviewed. I feel
we may learn that most if not all abductees score above average for
paranormal events in their lives. Interestingly, Budd Hopkins' work
has never explored or indicated any paranormal events to any of his
abductees.
I'll be exploring this connection myself in an article I'm currently
writing, to open up some dialogue.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: RESEARCH
Date: 6 Jan 92 04:19:00 GMT

Sorry Sheldon, I'm in the dark as much as you on the term "RESEARCH".
Is this another folder on PARANET? Perhaps Mike Corbin could
illuminate us?

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Abductions
Date: 7 Jan 92 05:43:00 GMT

Hi Jim, there is a copy of the UFORA Australian abduction and missing
time catalogue on its way to you by airmail-should be there in about
10 days.
Re the question of objective/subjective. Eddie Bullard's massive
review of abduction texts left him with the impression that the
subjective elements of the abduction experience outwayed the objective
elements. I think by this he was suggesting a psychological basis
rather than a physical basis to the phenomenon. In the Dec 91 issue of
the UK Journal "Fortean Times" Eddie is interviewed by Bob Rickard:
page 49:-
"FT: You have said-in Jerome Clark's UFO Encyclopedia-that you incline
towards a psychological or psycho-social interpretation of these
stories, but the physical evidnce in some of these case troubled you.
Are you any nearer to resolving that dilemma?
EB: No, not really. Some abduction cases have to be psychological;
there's no way the events could really have happened as described."

In the local abduction cases I've been involved with a woman, as a
young girl reports being levitated off her bed and floated through a
wall, then follows the classical medical examination and trip around
the ship, plus being show her future life. How objective is being
floated through a wall? That's what I meant by some subjective and
some objective elements that need to be dealt with.

A classic Australian abduction is that of Maureen Puddy who whilst in
the company of VUFORS UFO researchers Paul Norman and Judith Magee
lasped unto unconsciousness in a car, and then reported being inside a
round room, entity there etc. She never physically left their presence
yet an abduction event occurred.

Question, if we and Eddie accept that some cases are psychological and
yet these psyhcological caused ones tell exactly the same story as a
"real" abduction, how do we tell them apart? How can you prove a real
one was real? THis would be a good question to ask Eddie, which cases
does he feel are psychological?

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Research
Date: 7 Jan 92 05:51:00 GMT

Lest people get the impression that I'm sugegsting that THE answer to
abductions is simply psychological, I'm not. I think they deserve
serious scientific attention by health professionals. However, let's
investigate the psychological possibilities whilst looking at all
aspects. I don't think many of the "pro ETH" anduction researchers
have done this yet. For example, in his otherwise excellent MUFON
Symposium paper on abductions, John S Carpenter, a psychologist,
reviewed a number of possible psychopathological explanations for
abductions, including psychosis, schizophrenia, hysteria, dissociative
states, paranoia, and sociopathic personality and quite rightly
decides that these explanations are inadequate in explaining many
abduction cases. However, despite the fantasy prone personality
hypothesis having been around since 1988 he doesn't discuss it at
all-never mentions it as worthy of review. I'm quite happen to
entertain the ETH as an answer, but based on data and omitting no
possibilities.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Australian abductions
Date: 8 Jan 92 03:17:00 GMT

A while ago Michael Corbin asked me to describe some of our
abduction/missing times cases for you. This and the following messages
provided summaries of the 17 cases I have been associated with over
the last few years:-

1. Sep/Oct 1970  Sydney New South Wales "Adrian".
One night a man noticed a red/orange glow in the bush close to his
home. He took his dog and went to investigate. Getting closer to it he
saw a glow illuminating the area. His dog became excited and dashed
into the bush. There next appears a discontinuity in his physical and
emotional recall-an apparent period of "missing time." He next
recalled seeing an owl fly past him and he could hear his own internal
thought : 'There's something I should remember.' Strangely, he felt
comfortable with this, lost interest in the glow and went home.
(UFORA91036 Keith Basterfield and Julia Elsbeth).

2. 1972 Largs Bay South Australia  "Carol Williams."
A 27 year old woman reported a lifelong series of experiences which
commenced with a CE1 at age 6. This was followed by other UFO
experiences, poltergeist activity, telepathy, precognitive dreams, an
out of body experience, lucid dreams, hypnagogic imagery and sleep
paralysis, amongst other things. Of particular interest was a
recurrent nightmare of encounters with a strange dwarf in an unusual
room. Memories of some of these events were triggered after watching
an "Unsolved Mysteries" segment on abductions on television. Under
regression recollection eventuated of one abduction at age 9. Partial
recollection of a second possible abduction at age 15 ran into a
mental block. A friend of hers participated in some of the
experiences and was present in the same room at the age 15 episode.
Regression of this second woman confirmed parts of carol's story but
not the abduction.
(UFORA89036  UFORSA & Keith Basterfield).

3. 1974 Elizabeth South Australia  "Lisa."
A woman recalled, that as a 9 year old girl, she and a friend observed
a UFO at close range in suburban Elizabeth. As she had memories of
observing the UFO from two different locations a fraction of a second
apart, she suspected a period of missing time. Regression revealed no
abduction scenario.
(UFORA89037  UFORSA & Keith Basterfield.)

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Australian abductions 2
Date: 8 Jan 92 03:32:00 GMT

4. 1977-1989  Adelaide South Australia "Anne Hastings."
A 34 year old woman related at least 3 encounters with entities. The
first appears to be religious. On the second, one night she suddenly
found herself recalling that she had somehow been in a very large room
where there had been a large number of human-like figures, including a
human child about age 10. The room showed no apparent source of
illumination. It was warmly lit-a very light soft blue colour.
Breathing was no problem, gravity was normal and the temperature was
skin temperature. She can recall conversing with the child. On the
following occasion she had retired to bed when she found herself
drifting through tunnels. Suddenly she was in a room. This time the
people present were not human. They had pointed faces, large heads,
and slanted very dark blue eyes. Their heads were quite swollen at the
forehead, with their ears being little, with no lobes as such. They
had thin bodies, were grey in colour and short in stature. One of the
female aliens was carrying a baby. The baby had its arms outstretched
and the witness asked to hold and nurse it. Suddenly, she knew she had
to go and found herself back in bed. She quickly fell asleep. In her
teens she underwent precognitive dreams and later in life (continuing)
precognitive visions.
(UFORA89016  Ray Brooke & Keith Basterfield.)

5. Mar 1978  Gisborne New Zealand  'P'
Three women were involved in an apparent abduction event in the midst
of a large UFO flap near Gisborne which began in 1977. One night they
were lying on a hillside watching the skies, and felt that a period of
missing time occurred. Shortly after the event a regression hypnosis
sesssion was arranged and an abduction scenario revealed. In 1989
during a retrospective investigation by Keith Basterfield and Bill
Chalker, a regression session was conducted with 'P'. This revealed an
account of being drawn up a beam of light, and of talking to a male
entity. All 3 women then found themselves back on the hillside.
(UFORA89017 Original investigation by Bryan Dickeson. 1989 by Keith
Basterfield and Bill Chalker.)

6. 1979  Melbourne  Victoria "Mark."
A man retied to bed one night at about 11 p.m. Shortly after closing
his eyes he lost all sense of sound and feeling and found himself
travelling in a tunnel through space. Looking forwards he noted a
light at the end of the tunnel. His next awareness was of lying on a
table in a "craft". He was being medically examined by 3 beings. One
of the beings seemed to be a human female, with long blonde hair. The
other 2 were some 150cm tall, fat and of a dark brown colour. These
latter two had plumpish faces, large eyes, a large nose and bigger
lips and ears than us. They addressed him in English and seemed like
scientists. When they intoruced a "scanner" he "freaked out" and woke
up in his own bed. All his teeth were numb and his knuckles were
white.
(Garry Little.)

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Australian abductions 3
Date: 8 Jan 92 03:50:00 GMT

7. 1980-1989  Adelaide South Australia "Barbara White."
A young woman wanted assistance to determine the origin of 3
relatively large triangular scars on her forehead which had simply
appeared over night some 2 years prior. Over a 10 year period Barbara
saw UFOs, had a near death out of body experience, and a peak
experience. She also experienced telepathy, precognitive visions,
sleep paralysis, hypnagogic imagery, and other psychic style events.
As to the marks on the forehead she did have recollections of
something touching her forehead during one night, following which the
marks were seen the next day which later resulted in the current
scars. Under regression she recounted how a "shadow" was in her room
and shone a laser-like beam of light onto her forehead.
(UFORA90038  UFORSA & Keith Basterfield.)

8. 24 Oct 1981  Port Lincoln  South Australia Messrs P & J
2 young men were travelling by car when they encountered a "white
endless space" where a time loss of several hours is said to have
occurred. During this lost time they have vague memories of a "being"
and recalled "...walking into a big room..." Just prior to this
"space" they had been watching a mysterious light in the sky. They did
not wish a complete investigation.
(Keith Basterfield & Pony Godic).

9. 1983  Darwin Northern Territory  "Simon".
A 16 year old reported a series of events which included a night time
encounter, a number of dreams and also observations of entities about
the house. However, his sketches of the entities were straight copies
of Betty Andreasson's beings copied from the original Fowler book
which he had read. An investigation revealed a possible psychologcal
explanation for the story.
(Keith Basterfield & Pony Godic.)

10 Ca 1988  Adelaide South Australia  "Jan".
A married woman went to bed one night and during the night had a very
vivid experience which she believes was not a dream. She found herself
in this white space. Present were 3 entities. They were some 210cm
tall, and covered in gowns. She wasn't frightened of them. She had a
discussion with them. Next morning she had a vivid recall of the
events of the night apart from the content of the conversation.
Personality changes ensued from that time. Since then she has reported
episodes of sleep paralysis, and other unusual activity.
(UFORA91037 Keith Basterfield.)

11 Ca 1988 Mid North South Australia "Elizabeth."
Over a number of years a woman has experienced interactions with
aliens. All these have taken place in her bedroom on the interface
between sleep and wakefulness. Some of the episodes have involved
sexual contact.
(UFORA91038 Keith Basterfield.)

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Australian abductions 4
Date: 8 Jan 92 04:03:00 GMT

12 1988(?)  Adelaide South Australia "Frank."
A man reported that he was in 2 way communication with aliens via an
implant in his ear. During an investigation it was revealed that he
had undergone 2 apparent out of body experiences where he was "sucked
out" of his body. He indicated that during these episodes he had been
taken onboard a UFO. His account was set in the context of the Ashtar
command via automatic writing.

13 Lifelong  Adelaide South Australia  "Susan."
A 31 year old woman told how at age 10-11 she was abducted from her
bedroom by 1 tall and a group of small, entities. The smaller beings
were some 120cm tall, with large bald heads. They had large eye
sockets, no visible pupils, with dark blue or black eyes. With a slit
mouth and a small nose. The taller being seemed to be in command, and
was some 210cm tall. Susan was levitated off the bed and taken to a
circular "room" where she received a medical examination whilst lying
on a metal table.  The next conscious recollection was of waking up in
her own bed. Regression sessions documented her abduction claim. This
woman also recounts numerous lifelong episodes of such things as
poltergeist activity, a sense of presence, being told she levitated
whilst she slept, seeing objects such as childrens'tricycles moving by
themselves, experiencing apparitions, precognitive visions, telepathy
and spirit photographs. There were also claims of unusual implants in
her mouth. In addition there are fragmentary recall of a number of
other abductions. The case is set in the context of the woman being an
adult survivor of childhood sexual abuse.
(UFORA90045  UFORSA & Keith Basterfield.)

14 Lifelong  Tasmania/South Australia  "Nigel."
A number of paranormal and abduction-like events were reported by a 27
year old man in 1990. These included a 1987 event in which he woke
paralysed in bed. Something was being pushed into a vein in his arm.
Upon awakening he found a hole in his arm from which blood was
issuing.
(UFORA90066 Keith Basterfield & Julia Elsbeth.)

15 Jul 1989  Adelaide South Australia  "Julian."
A man and his wife have recollections of being abducted on the same
night. He recalls an entity with oval shaped head, large black eyes, a
slit for a mouth and nostrils, looking at him.
(UFORA91098  Keith Basterfield.)

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Australian abductions 5
Date: 8 Jan 92 04:10:00 GMT

16  Jun 1988 Jamestown South Australia  "Bronte."
A 58 year old farmer related that one night he experienced an unusual
"attack" whilst in bed. Later he saw a UFO at close range and found a
disturbed area of ground.
(UFORSA).

17  1988-1990  Melbourne Victoria  "Rita."
Several unusual episodes are said to have occurred to a Victorian
woman. Episodes included her 6 year old son telling her that several
small men entered his bedroom, shinign a "torch" at him. In addition
her 14 year old daughter told her she had seen a large, luminous
object floating down their driveway. The woman herself had been
physically pulled out of bed by "something" one night. Finally, the
woman recalled a "dream" from age 7 in which 3 "pixies" entered her
room and took her away.
(UFORA91044 Keith Basterfield.)

These then are the cases I have been associated with so far. Note the
variety of experiences, the tunnel like manner of some abductions,
similar to near death experience imagery.

Comments, etc are sought.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Welcome Back!
Date: 12 Jan 92 05:42:03 GMT


In a message to All <09-Jan-92 05:14> David Jacobs wrote:

DJ> I would like to say hello to all my friends and colleagues
DJ> again.

Hi Dave, and welcome back! Discussion is just now starting to pick
up on this echo (as I'm certain you've noticed), so you couldn't
have been more timely in your return. I know Mike Corbin has been
working furiously to set up a node for you in PA. I see he's
succeeded.

DJ> It seems that I have resurfaced after all these months.
                         ^^^^^^^^^^
Ah Ha, so you've been vacationing at the underground base in
Dulce... that explains your mysterious disappearance.<g> Seriously,
I know how busy you've been. Your book is due out in March, is it
not? Can't wait to read it.

DJ> I will wait for some messages in the hopes of
DJ> getting up an interesting dialogue on abductions and UFOs.

There are quite a few in the message base now for you to scan
through and comment on. Also, if you have received my letter of a
couple weeks back, and have not yet responded, please feel free to
do so in this forum.   Thanks --

Take care,

Sheldon

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: I'm Back.
Date: 12 Jan 92 19:10:00 GMT


 >  I would like to say hello to all my friends and colleagues again.  It
 >  seems that I have resurfaced after all these months.  I only have a few
 >  seconds left on the BBS so I will wait for some messages in the hopes
 > of
 >  getting up an interesting dialogue on abductions and UFOs.

Welcome back Dave!  Hope to see you posting often.  Keith Basterfield has been
anxiously awaiting your re-appearance.  Enjoy!

Mike

P.S.  Make an announcement on your upcoming book.

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Abduction Research
Date: 13 Jan 92 01:11:01 GMT



Hello Keith, and many thanks for the most interesting statistical
data and condensed case histories you have provided us with.
Intercontinental dialogue at its finest - thanks to ParaNet.

The paranormal/abduction correlation you suspect does seem to
manifest itself in at least 5 out of 6 cases I am personally
familiar with. One woman, while a student at Southern Illinois
University, reported numerous poltergeist type incidents, such as
overturned water glasses righting themselves, and drapes opening
spontaneously. Another, reported a single, very profound OBE, in
which her image allegedly became visible to a friend. All recited
accounts of prophetic dreams, clairvoyance, precognition, etc.

First we must determine conclusively, through the currently
available percipient profile database, if this posited link does
indeed exist. Next, we must construct hypotheses that conform to
the observed data. Many questions must be answered, some of which
you touched upon in your last message.

Are individuals that are susceptible to paranormal events, also
prospective abductees? Do abductees, ex post facto, then become
"paranormal prone"? How do we define and confirm the paranormal
event? I agree with you that it seems likely that most abductees
would score higher than average on a standardized paranormal
aptitude test.

Personally, I feel that the majority of the UFO/abduction scenario
may be more of an intangible psycho-sociological phenomenon than
anything else. I base this observation on the fact that after all
these years, we have little (some would say none!) physical
confirmation of UFO's/abductions. MOST, but NOT all UFO sightings
can be resolved through temporal mechanisms. The most popular point
of departure for abductees of late has become the percipient's
bedroom - which augments the probability of hypnopompic/hypnogogic
imagery. Your cited case of Maureen Puddy, lapsing into
unconsciousness in the presence of VUFORS investigators, and later
reciting an abduction event which could not have been physical,
lends credence to some type of psychological etiology. What
happened to Maureen was certainly far more complex than a dream -
but what was it?

I, like you Keith, am not stating that the abduction issue can be
satisfactorily settled through known psychological mechanisms.
Obviously, it's just not that rudimentary. However, it does appear
that psychological method is the primary vehicle to utilize in
unraveling this enigma.

Thanks again Keith for your post,

Sheldon @ FIDO 1:11/50
--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: I'm back.
Date: 11 Jan 92 18:35:00 GMT


 >  I would like to say hello to all my friends and colleagues again.  It
 >  seems that I have resurfaced after all these months.  I only have a few
 >
 >  seconds left on the BBS so I will wait for some messages in the hopes
 > of
 >  getting up an interesting dialogue on abductions and UFOs.
 >
Ahlevai! Welcome back, David. I hope you have been able to track the last few
weeks worth of messages on this echo. If not, please advise and one of us can
use FastForward to update Chris's message base.

We're finally getting some good traffic here, with the participation of
Basterfield, Wernikoff, Rodeghier, and perhaps a real-live abductee or two.

To the lurkers out there, this is one area where you may use an alias, so
please feel free to post, especially if you have some suspicions that you may
have had the abduction experience.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Brent Wilcox)
Subject: Premature Births
Date: 13 Jan 92 01:03:24 GMT

I won't claim that all abduction experiences stem from this source,
but I wonder if anyone has pursued this angle...

I've encountered a few people on BBS systems who claim abduction
experiences, or "borderline" abduction experiences -- paranormal
encounters that are similar but not quite the same as "alien
abductions".

Several of them -- it came out -- were born prematurely.  I'm aware
of the "birth trauma" theory of abductions, and wonder is anyone has
looked for premie births in the data.  Even more potentially
traumatic than birth itself might be being stuck in an incubator
and/or hooked to life support equipment.



--
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 40

                          Wednesday, January 15th 1992

Today's Topics:

                                Premature Births
                                     Advice
                                 Re: abductions
                               abductions and FPP
                                Premature Births
                                 Salem Therapist
                              Australian abductions
                             Australian abductions 2
                             Australian abductions3
                             Australian abductions 4
                             Australian abductions 5

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Premature Births
Date: 14 Jan 92 05:16:01 GMT



In a message to All <12-Jan-92 18:03> Brent Wilcox wrote:

BW> I'm aware of the "birth trauma" theory of abductions, and
BW> wonder is anyone has looked for premie births in the data.
BW> Even more potentially traumatic than birth itself might be
BW> being stuck in an incubator and/or hooked to life support
BW> equipment.

  Interesting commentary Brent. The individual would of course have
  no conscious recollection of this neo-natal vestige, although the
  effects on the psyche, as you suggest, could be profound.

  I am unaware if any such statistical data has been compiled.
  Perhaps some of the others on this echo are so informed.

  Take care,

  -- Sheldon

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Advice
Date: 13 Jan 92 06:17:00 GMT


 > I guess the big question is, what advice does one give a potential
 > abduction victim who has no desire for hypnosis?

  Have her be sure she writes down *every tidbit* at the time she recalls it.
  Very important that she take the time *right then* to write it down.
  She could later look over all that stuff and it might trigger more memories.
  I'll forward your message to a local sympathetic shrink via netmail; maybe
  he can help.

                                           jbh

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Danny Brandenburg)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 13 Jan 92 10:19:53 GMT

Someone seems to have a real attitude about Mensa.  Geesh, calm down.



Now back to the subject at hand...

     Yes, there is obviously a strong connection between Mensa and
religious beliefs.  However, I really don't think this proves much in
the field of UFO work.  I will be very interested, amazed, and willing
to listen if Mensa members can *produce* evidence to support their
religious claims.

      Well, I am babbling as usual due to me writing this at 3:30 am so
I suppose I will close for now.



                                Danny Brandenburg


--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Danny Brandenburg)
Subject: abductions and FPP
Date: 13 Jan 92 10:29:18 GMT

Has there been a general demographic description of abductees?  This
would be very interesting to look at.  I would predict (just a
groundless belief) that "most" (not all) people that claim abduction
experience would be from a non-traditional religious background (ie. New
Age, etc.).  If this is true, one cannot easily explain why there are
others from other religious backgrounds (ie. Christian, atheist, etc.)
also have these experiences.

     Personally, I do believe that the abduction claims are true...to an
extent.  I still have a hard time believing the abductions are
attributed to "aliens", but there is certainly something happening.
Too much evidence has been collected (and being collected) to dismiss
this as fantasy alone.

                                  Danny Brandenburg


--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Brent Wilcox)
Subject: Premature Births
Date: 14 Jan 92 21:08:45 GMT

In a message to Brent Wilcox <13 Jan 92 22:16> Sheldon Wernikoff wrote:

 SW>  Interesting commentary Brent. The individual would of course have
 SW>  no conscious recollection of this neo-natal vestige, although the
 SW>  effects on the psyche, as you suggest, could be profound.

Yes. Instead of cozy maternal imprinting and bonding, the infant is
whisked away by friendly, caring strangers who isolate it and often
perform medical proceedures on it (until recently newborns were
operated on without anesthesia).  Sounds uncannilly -- to me -- like
the "caring but alien" treatment some abductees report.

I was a premie myself, and spent several weeks in an incubator.
I've never had a classic "abduction experience", but I did have
recurrent dreams in my very early childhood that seem similar to
those some report (in my case, little figures who carried me out of
bed and up to "the attic") -- which I can best trace back to
post-birth experiences.

It was running into a couple other "premies" -- who actually claimed
abduction-like encounters but discounted their post-birth
experiences as anything but coincidence -- that got me thinking
about this angle.

But then, as a lifetime fan of science fiction, a follower of
fortean stuff since about the age of 9 or 10, and a writer, I'm no
doubt a "fantasy prone person" too. <g>



--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Salem Therapist
Date: 15 Jan 92 05:46:01 GMT


Hello David,

I've been corresponding with a very capable psychologist (Psy. D.)
in Salem, OR, who is most interested in becoming more involved with
abduction therapy. She has received a few cases through MUFON
referrals, but none have proven to be, in her opinion, without
complicating coexisting issues, which the subjects were unwilling
to explore.

I know there are individuals in that area that might be looking for
a qualified therapist to aid in coping with and understanding their
experience. Would you possibly be able to assist her in making some
connections? By the way... her area of focus has been sexually
abused women.    Thanks --

-- Sheldon



--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Australian abductions
Date: 8 Jan 92 03:17:00 GMT

Hullo David, Allow me to introduce myself. Keith Basterfield, aged
41, living in Adelaide, South Australia. I have been interested in
the UFO phenomenon since 1968. Whilst accepting that there is core
UFO phenomenon beneath the thousands of reports I have been
advocating an exploration of all angles before reaching a conclusion.
When applied to the abduction phenomenon I have been suggesting a
thorough exploration of potential psychological explanations before
proceeding to alternative hypotheses. Some 2 years ago I teamed up
with Sociologist Bob Bartholomew to explore the fantasy-prone
personality as a possible hypothesis to explain some/all abductions.
This work recently saw light of day in a US Psych Journal. This work
was a suggestion to clinicians/abduction researcers to do some
testing since I did not have the scientific background to undertake
it myself. Ken Ring's work on NDErs and abductees said the FPP link
was weak/non-existent. CUFOS are almost through some psych testing of
the FPP hypothesis and I await their results with interest. If
abductees don't rate well as FPP then I think we can then move on to
other hypotheses. The ETH may then rate as the best fit. I have taken
this slow route because health professionals will themselves wish to
ensure no psych explanations fit before considering other hypotheses.
The US Psych article was intended to get people to look at the topic
not suggest we had THE answer. Since co-writing the article I have
worked with a number of abductees in my home state. Some seem to fit
the FPP some don't. A while ago Michael Corbin asked me to describe
some of our abduction/missing times cases. This and the following
messages provided summaries of the 17 cases I have been associated
with over the last few years:-

1. Sep/Oct 1970  Sydney New South Wales "Adrian".
One night a man noticed a red/orange glow in the bush close to his
home. He took his dog and went to investigate. Getting closer to it
he saw a glow illuminating the area. His dog became excited and
dashed into the bush. There next appears a discontinuity in his
physical and emotional recall-an apparent period of "missing time."
He next recalled seeing an owl fly past him and he could hear his own
internal thought : 'There's something I should remember.' Strangely,
he felt comfortable with this, lost interest in the glow and went
home. (UFORA91036 Keith Basterfield and Julia Elsbeth).

2. 1972 Largs Bay South Australia  "Carol Williams."
A 27 year old woman reported a lifelong series of experiences which
commenced with a CE1 at age 6. This was followed by other UFO
experiences, poltergeist activity, telepathy, precognitive dreams, an
out of body experience, lucid dreams, hypnagogic imagery and sleep
paralysis, amongst other things. Of particular interest was a
recurrent nightmare of encounters with a strange dwarf in an unusual
room. Memories of some of these events were triggered after watching
an "Unsolved Mysteries" segment on abductions on television. Under
regression recollection eventuated of one abduction at age 9. Partial
recollection of a second possible abduction at age 15 ran into a
mental block. A friend of hers participated in some of the
experiences and was present in the same room at the age 15 episode.
Regression of this second woman confirmed parts of carol's story but
not the abduction. (UFORA89036  UFORSA & Keith Basterfield).

3. 1974 Elizabeth South Australia  "Lisa."
A woman recalled, that as a 9 year old girl, she and a friend
observed a UFO at close range in suburban Elizabeth. As she had
memories of observing the UFO from two different locations a fraction
of a second apart, she suspected a period of missing time. Regression
revealed no abduction scenario. (UFORA89037 UFORSA & Keith
Basterfield.)


--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Australian abductions 2
Date: 8 Jan 92 03:32:00 GMT

4 1977-1989  Adelaide South Australia "Anne Hastings."
A 34 year old woman related at least 3 encounters with entities. The
first appears to be religious. On the second, one night she suddenly
found herself recalling that she had somehow been in a very large
room where there had been a large number of human-like figures,
including a human child about age 10. The room showed no apparent
source of illumination. It was warmly lit-a very light soft blue
colour. Breathing was no problem, gravity was normal and the
temperature was skin temperature. She can recall conversing with the
child. On the following occasion she had retired to bed when she
found herself drifting through tunnels. Suddenly she was in a room.
This time the people present were not human. They had pointed faces,
large heads, and slanted very dark blue eyes. Their heads were quite
swollen at the forehead, with their ears being little, with no lobes
as such. They had thin bodies, were grey in colour and short in
stature. One of the female aliens was carrying a baby. The baby had
its arms outstretched and the witness asked to hold and nurse it.
Suddenly, she knew she had to go and found herself back in bed. She
quickly fell asleep. In her teens she underwent precognitive dreams
and later in life (continuing) precognitive visions. (UFORA89016  Ray
Brooke & Keith Basterfield.)

5. Mar 1978  Gisborne New Zealand  'P'
Three women were involved in an apparent abduction event in the midst
of a large UFO flap near Gisborne which began in 1977. One night they
were lying on a hillside watching the skies, and felt that a period
of missing time occurred. Shortly after the event a regression
hypnosis sesssion was arranged and an abduction scenario revealed. In
1989 during a retrospective investigation by Keith Basterfield and
Bill Chalker, a regression session was conducted with 'P'. This
revealed an account of being drawn up a beam of light, and of talking
to a male entity. All 3 women then found themselves back on the
hillside. (UFORA89017 Original investigation by Bryan Dickeson. 1989
by Keith Basterfield and Bill Chalker.)

6. 1979  Melbourne  Victoria "Mark."
A man retied to bed one night at about 11 p.m. Shortly after closing
his eyes he lost all sense of sound and feeling and found himself
travelling in a tunnel through space. Looking forwards he noted a
light at the end of the tunnel. His next awareness was of lying on a
table in a "craft". He was being medically examined by 3 beings. One
of the beings seemed to be a human female, with long blonde hair. The
other 2 were some 150cm tall, fat and of a dark brown colour. These
latter two had plumpish faces, large eyes, a large nose and bigger
lips and ears than us. They addressed him in English and seemed like
scientists. When they intoruced a "scanner" he "freaked out" and woke
up in his own bed. All his teeth were numb and his knuckles were
white. (Garry Little.)


--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Australian abductions3
Date: 8 Jan 92 03:50:00 GMT

7. 1980-1989  Adelaide South Australia "Barbara White."
A young woman wanted assistance to determine the origin of 3
relatively large triangular scars on her forehead which had simply
appeared over night some 2 years prior. Over a 10 year period Barbara
saw UFOs, had a near death out of body experience, and a peak
experience. She also experienced telepathy, precognitive visions,
sleep paralysis, hypnagogic imagery, and other psychic style events.
As to the marks on the forehead she did have recollections of
something touching her forehead during one night, following which the
marks were seen the next day which later resulted in the current
scars. Under regression she recounted how a "shadow" was in her room
and shone a laser-like beam of light onto her forehead. (UFORA90038
UFORSA & Keith Basterfield.)

8. 24 Oct 1981  Port Lincoln  South Australia Messrs P & J
2 young men were travelling by car when they encountered a "white
endless space" where a time loss of several hours is said to have
occurred. During this lost time they have vague memories of a "being"
and recalled "...walking into a big room..." Just prior to this
"space" they had been watching a mysterious light in the sky. They
did not wish a complete investigation. (Keith Basterfield & Pony
Godic).

9. 1983  Darwin Northern Territory  "Simon".
A 16 year old reported a series of events which included a night time
encounter, a number of dreams and also observations of entities about
the house. However, his sketches of the entities were straight copies
of Betty Andreasson's beings copied from the original Fowler book
which he had read. An investigation revealed a possible psychologcal
explanation for the story. (Keith Basterfield & Pony Godic.)

10 Ca 1988  Adelaide South Australia  "Jan".
A married woman went to bed one night and during the night had a very
vivid experience which she believes was not a dream. She found
herself in this white space. Present were 3 entities. They were some
210cm tall, and covered in gowns. She wasn't frightened of them. She
had a discussion with them. Next morning she had a vivid recall of
the events of the night apart from the content of the conversation.
Personality changes ensued from that time. Since then she has
reported episodes of sleep paralysis, and other unusual activity.
(UFORA91037 Keith Basterfield.)

11 Ca 1988 Mid North South Australia "Elizabeth."
Over a number of years a woman has experienced interactions with
aliens. All these have taken place in her bedroom on the interface
between sleep and wakefulness. Some of the episodes have involved
sexual contact. (UFORA91038 Keith Basterfield.)


--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Australian abductions 4
Date: 8 Jan 92 04:03:00 GMT

12. 1988(?)  Adelaide South Australia "Frank."
A man reported that he was in 2 way communication with aliens via an
implant in his ear. During an investigation it was revealed that he
had undergone 2 apparent out of body experiences where he was "sucked
out" of his body. He indicated that during these episodes he had been
taken onboard a UFO. His account was set in the context of the Ashtar
command via automatic writing.

13 Lifelong  Adelaide South Australia  "Susan."
A 31 year old woman told how at age 10-11 she was abducted from her
bedroom by 1 tall and a group of small, entities. The smaller beings
were some 120cm tall, with large bald heads. They had large eye
sockets, no visible pupils, with dark blue or black eyes. With a slit
mouth and a small nose. The taller being seemed to be in command, and
was some 210cm tall. Susan was levitated off the bed and taken to a
circular "room" where she received a medical examination whilst lying
on a metal table.  The next conscious recollection was of waking up
in her own bed. Regression sessions documented her abduction claim.
This woman also recounts numerous lifelong episodes of such things as
poltergeist activity, a sense of presence, being told she levitated
whilst she slept, seeing objects such as childrens'tricycles moving
by themselves, experiencing apparitions, precognitive visions,
telepathy and spirit photographs. There were also claims of unusual
implants in her mouth. In addition there are fragmentary recall of a
number of other abductions. The case is set in the context of the
woman being an adult survivor of childhood sexual abuse. (UFORA90045
UFORSA & Keith Basterfield.)

14 Lifelong  Tasmania/South Australia  "Nigel."
A number of paranormal and abduction-like events were reported by a
27 year old man in 1990. These included a 1987 event in which he woke
paralysed in bed. Something was being pushed into a vein in his arm.
Upon awakening he found a hole in his arm from which blood was
issuing. (UFORA90066 Keith Basterfield & Julia Elsbeth.)

15 Jul 1989  Adelaide South Australia  "Julian."
A man and his wife have recollections of being abducted on the same
night. He recalls an entity with oval shaped head, large black eyes,
a slit for a mouth and nostrils, looking at him. (UFORA91098  Keith
Basterfield.)


--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Australian abductions 5
Date: 8 Jan 92 04:10:00 GMT

16.  Jun 1988 Jamestown South Australia  "Bronte."
A 58 year old farmer related that one night he experienced an unusual
"attack" whilst in bed. Later he saw a UFO at close range and found a
disturbed area of ground. (UFORSA).

17  1988-1990  Melbourne Victoria  "Rita."
Several unusual episodes are said to have occurred to a Victorian
woman. Episodes included her 6 year old son telling her that several
small men entered his bedroom, shinign a "torch" at him. In addition
her 14 year old daughter told her she had seen a large, luminous
object floating down their driveway. The woman herself had been
physically pulled out of bed by "something" one night. Finally, the
woman recalled a "dream" from age 7 in which 3 "pixies" entered her
room and took her away. (UFORA91044 Keith Basterfield.)

These then are the cases I have been associated with so far. Note the
variety of experiences, the tunnel like manner of some abductions,
similar to near death experience imagery.

Anyway David, hope this background and information on Australian cases
are of interest. Welcome back to the folder, and I hope we may all
have some interesting discussion on the topic of our mutual interests.
If I may help you with additional details on any of these cases,
please let me know either here or by mail at PO Box 302, Modbury
North, South Australia 5092. Bye.




--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



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                          Abduction Digest, Number 41

                          Saturday, January 18th 1992

Today's Topics:

                                Premature Births
                               Abduction dialogue
                                   Abductions
                               Abduction Dialogue
                                Premature Births
                                 Re: Abductions
                               Abduction dialogue
                                  Abductee list
                                 Salem Therapist

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Premature Births
Date: 15 Jan 92 23:05:01 GMT



In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <14-Jan-92 14:08>
Brent Wilcox wrote:

BW> Yes. Instead of cozy maternal imprinting and bonding, the
BW> infant is whisked away by friendly, caring strangers who
BW> isolate it and often perform medical procedures on it (until
BW> recently newborns were operated on without anesthesia).

 Hmmm... and conceivably yielding latent images of beings in
 uniforms (surgical gowns) with no ears, hair, or mouths (concealed
 by caps and masks), and large eyes (reverse magnification through
 visual examination lenses).

 ... And then there are the banks of monitors and diagnostic
 equipment so commonplace in the neo-natal unit, and so often
 reported by abductees. You may be on to something here, Brent.
 To carry this thought one step further, I wonder how many
 abductees have undergone any prior hospital surgical procedures,
 especially in early childhood. Perhaps some other listeners
 possess the pertinent data.

BW> ... I was a "premie" myself... I did have recurrent dreams in
BW> my very early childhood that seem similar to those some report
BW> (in my case, little figures who carried me out of bed and up to
BW> "the attic") -- which I can best trace back to post-birth
BW> experiences.

 Did those dreams stay with you consciously from childhood on, or
 did something trigger your memory at a later date? Were you able
 to correlate being taken out of bed and up to the attic with any
 real event in the hospital?

BW> ... as a lifetime fan of science fiction, a follower of
BW> fortean stuff since about the age of 9 or 10, and a writer, I'm
BW> no doubt a "fantasy prone person" too. <g>

 To the contrary Brent, being interested in such topics has no real
 bearing on whether or not you are a fantasy prone personality.
 FPP's are those persons who are predisposed to perceive
 extraordinarily graphic and detailed illusions, and find it
 difficult, if not impossible, to discern fact from fancy. There
 are comprehensive examinations available such as the MMPI
 (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory), which, among other
 personality attributes, helps to verify FPP. Additionally, Mark
 Rodeghier and the J. Allen Hynek Center For UFO Studies in
 Chicago, have developed proprietary tests of their own for
 analyzing FPP.

 Thanks for initiating discussion of this premature birth issue. It
 seems worthy of further investigation.

 Take care,

 Sheldon


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Abduction dialogue
Date: 15 Jan 92 07:56:05 GMT

I have finally had time to sit down and read the messages for the last several
weeks. I find it all quite interesting, especially the material  submitted by
Keith Basterfield.  In your discussions of the possible  origin of abductions,
however, you have not paid adequate attention to the physicality of the events.
 Neither I nor Budd Hopkins have found a  single abduction episode in which the
person was physically in place at  the alleged time of the abduction. The Purdy
case I assume is  uninvestigated and I am not aware of the surrounding
circumstances.   Furthermore, we have scores of cases in which two or more
people are  abducted at the same time.  Also, we have scores of cases in which
one  person sees another being abducted but is not abducted himself.  The
abducted person confirms the event through investigation.  We hve scores  of
cases in which the missing abductee during the event is searched for  by
friends and relations.  Police have been called.  Neighbors have been
solicited in search parties and so forth.  We have many cases in which
neighbors have told abductees that strange lights were seen over their houses
the night of an abduction.  I don't want to pile this on too  thick, but the
important thing here is the abduction events that are not  psychologically
generated.  It seems to me that this is where research  should be centered
on--not on the few cases tht might be internally  generated.  Those might be
very important, but the non-psychological  cases are the crux of the matter.
  As you probably know, I have come down squarely on the side of the
physicality of abductions.  I want to be entirely forthcoming about that.   I
certainly do not expect to convince to my position, but it is  important to
understand the parameters of the abduction phenomenon so  that we can be on the
same playing field.  Incidentally, my views are  outlined in my book which will
finally see the light of day around the  last week of February or the first
week of March.  It is called SECRET LIFE: FIRSTHAND ACCOUNTS OF UFO ABDUCTIONS
(subtitle by publisher)  and will be published by Simon & Schuster.  I expect
it to be a very  controversial book.
     Jim, I am not sure that I can help with your problem.  When an  abductee
says that they do not want to go through hypnosis, I respect  their judgement.
 That decision is the right one for them.  Getting the  person to write down
the remembrances is a good idea, but I have learned  that a person's conscious
recollections are not always trustworthy, so be  skeptical about the details of
any consciously recalled episode.
    Finally, (it is late at night, I'm tired, and I'm rambling) it is important
to note that to the best of my knowledge, not a single  abduction case has ever
been found to have been unequivocably caused by  abuse, sexual, physical, or
emotional.  Although there has been quite a  lot of talk about this and it is
the first theing that therapists think  when an abductee presents to him, I
think that there is far less here  than meets the eye.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Abductions
Date: 15 Jan 92 19:55:00 GMT


 > Hi Jim, there is a copy of the UFORA Australian abduction and missing
 > time catalogue on its way to you by airmail-should be there in about 10
 > days.
Thanks Keith! I look forward to receiving it.


 > Re the question of objective/subjective. Eddie Bullard's massive review
 > of abduction texts left him with the impression that the subjective
 > elements of the abduction experience outwayed the objective elements. I
 > think by this he was suggesting a psychological basis rather than a
 > physical basis to the phenomenon. In the Dec 91 issue of the UK Journal
 > "Fortean Times" Eddie is interviewed by Bob Rickard: page 49:-
 > "FT: You have said-in Jerome Clark's UFO Encyclopedia-that you incline
 > towards a psychological or psycho-social interpretation of these
 > stories, but the physical evidnce in some of these case troubled you.
 > Are you any nearer to resolving that dilemma?

And it is a dilemma. I can see where some would try to postulate something "in
between", such as Ring's (?) "imaginal" states.

 > A classic Australian abduction is that of Maureen Puddy who whilst in
 > the company of VUFORS UFO researchers Paul Norman and Judith Magee
 > lasped unto unconsciousness in a car, and then reported being inside a
 > round room, entity there etc. She never physically left their presence
 > yet an abduction event occurred.

I had heard of this. Was this considered a "classic" abduction in other
respects?

 > Question, if we and Eddie accept that some cases are psychological and
 > yet these psyhcological caused ones tell exactly the same story as a
 > "real" abduction, how do we tell them apart? How can you prove a real
 > one was real? THis would be a good question to ask Eddie, which cases
 > does he feel are psychological?

I think what is needed is to set parameters for testing of the "reality"
hypothesis, and stick to them, i.e., if a significant number of "real" cases
fail the test, we need to adopt "psychological" as the working hypothesis, and
go from there, perhaps even defining a new malady: Alien Abduction Syndrome, a
curious delusion that has many symptoms of reality. We can test this as well,
perhaps by injecting false reporting elements into the public information flow
and seeing if they show up in future cases. Sneaky? Sure, but it gets the job
done.

Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Abduction Dialogue
Date: 17 Jan 92 00:38:03 GMT


In a message to All <15-Jan-92 00:56> David Jacobs wrote:

DJ> you have not paid adequate attention to the physicality of the
DJ> events. Neither I nor Budd Hopkins have found a single
DJ> abduction episode in which the person was physically in place
DJ> at the alleged time of the abduction.

Hi Dave...specifically which aspects of physicality are you
referring to? The reason I ask is that it is possible that some
countenances of the physical MAY be the result of psychological
mechanisms. Rashes and other dermal evidence? Perhaps. Radiation
anomalies? Definitely not.

I also find it very difficult to accept that you apparently believe
NONE of the abductees you and Budd have worked with COULD HAVE
remained in their immediate physical environment. What evidence do
you have that they were ALL corporeally plucked from their
surroundings?

DJ> we have scores of cases in which two or more people are
DJ> abducted at the same time.

Intriguing, but not conclusive... COULD be shared fantasy.

DJ> Also, we have scores of cases in which one person sees another
DJ> being abducted but is not abducted himself. The abducted person
DJ> confirms the event through investigation.

MUCH more interesting than the aforementioned scenario! But... has
there been an opportunity for abductee/witness association prior to
your investigation, or were they sequestered?

DJ> We have scores of cases in which the missing abductee during
DJ> the event is searched for by friends and relations.

What about the HUNDREDS of cases that have NO WITNESSES at all? Do
you and Budd not examine these? There is no way for us to know if
these individuals ever left physically since there were no
observers.

DJ> I don't want to pile this on too thick, but the important thing
DJ> here is the abduction events that are not psychologically
DJ> generated.

I agree Dave, but I'm not certain we're capable of conclusively
differentiating one from the other - at least not yet.

DJ> It seems to me that this is where research should be centered
DJ> on--not on the few cases that might be internally generated.

How can you be certain that only a few cases of abduction are
internally generated? The data some researchers are presenting
would tend to suggest otherwise -in fact - the inverse of the
proportions you state.

DJ> Those might be very important, but the non-psychological cases
DJ> are the crux of the matter.

We are in complete agreement here.

DJ> I certainly do not expect to convince to my position...

But PLEASE TRY Dave... If you can't convince those of us in this
forum who WANT to believe, how shall society ever be convinced of
the reality of the phenomenon?

DJ> I have learned that a person's conscious recollections are not
DJ> always trustworthy, so be skeptical about the details of any
DJ> consciously recalled episode.

I assume you are referring to the possibility of "screen memory"
here, but why should we be any less skeptical of the particulars
uncovered through hypnotic regression?

DJ> ...it is important to note that to the best of my knowledge,
DJ> not a single abduction case has ever been found to have been
DJ> unequivocably caused by abuse, sexual, physical, or emotional.

That may be true Dave, but if it were unequivocally proven that
abductions are caused by aliens, there would be no need for this
discussion.

Great to have you back!

-- Sheldon

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Brent Wilcox)
Subject: Premature Births
Date: 16 Jan 92 20:22:30 GMT

In a message to Brent Wilcox <15 Jan 92 16:05> Sheldon Wernikoff wrote:

 SW> Hmmm... and conceivably yielding latent images of beings in
 SW> uniforms (surgical gowns) with no ears, hair, or mouths (concealed
 SW> by caps and masks), and large eyes (reverse magnification through
 SW> visual examination lenses).

"Large eyes" could be related to the fact that eyes are the first
thing a newborn is supposed to notice in the human face.  I think
this has been commented on by others regarding descriptions of
aliens.  That, and the related observation that we (as mammals) have
an instictive reaction to "big eyes" -- from children, puppies,
"Big-Eyed Children" Paintings <g>, Disney cartoons, and maybe ETs...

 SW> ... And then there are the banks of monitors and diagnostic
 SW> equipment so commonplace in the neo-natal unit, and so often
 SW> reported by abductees. You may be on to something here, Brent.
 SW> To carry this thought one step further, I wonder how many
 SW> abductees have undergone any prior hospital surgical procedures,
 SW> especially in early childhood. Perhaps some other listeners
 SW> possess the pertinent data.

Even given this latent "programming", what triggers the "abduction
experience"?  Stress?  Hormonal flux?  Are non-human entities using
this latent imagery as a cover for some other psychological
manipulation?

 >BW> ... I was a "premie" myself... I did have recurrent dreams in
 >BW> my very early childhood that seem similar to those some report
 >BW> (in my case, little figures who carried me out of bed and up to
 >BW> "the attic") -- which I can best trace back to post-birth
 >BW> experiences.

 SW> Did those dreams stay with you consciously from childhood on, or
 SW> did something trigger your memory at a later date? Were you able
 SW> to correlate being taken out of bed and up to the attic with any
 SW> real event in the hospital?

I've always remembered those dreams consciously.  But the connection
with my incubator experience is purely supposition on my part.  I
suspect that experience may have had a considerable effect on me, but
again, this is supposition.  I spent a lot of time in the hospital
as a small child, and it would be hard to separate one early
childhood memory of hospitalization from another.  My earliest
memories -- if they exist -- would probably involve sound and touch,
since my mother says I didn't open my eyes until several weeks after
I came home from the hospital.

 SW> To the contrary Brent, being interested in such topics has no real
 SW> bearing on whether or not you are a fantasy prone personality.
 SW> FPP's are those persons who are predisposed to perceive
 SW> extraordinarily graphic and detailed illusions, and find it
 SW> difficult, if not impossible, to discern fact from fancy.

In that case, I don't fit the category...

 SW> Thanks for initiating discussion of this premature birth issue. It
 SW> seems worthy of further investigation.

Happy I could toss in an interesting two cents...

--Brent


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Re: Abductions
Date: 15 Jan 92 02:56:00 GMT

On 01-06-92  22:43 Keith Basterfield posted to Jim Speiser:

 KB> A classic Australian abduction is that of Maureen Puddy who whilst in
 KB> the company of VUFORS UFO researchers Paul Norman and Judith Magee
 KB> lasped unto unconsciousness in a car, and then reported being inside a
 KB> round room, entity there etc. She never physically left their presence
 KB> yet an abduction event occurred.

Interesting thought occured to me while reading this,

If abtuctees are in fact having an OBE, then why/how do they report a
"physical" exam?

Regards,
Kay


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Abduction dialogue
Date: 16 Jan 92 15:56:03 GMT

In a message to All Users <15 Jan 92 00:56> David Jacobs wrote:

 DJ>     Jim, I am not sure that I can help with your problem.  When
 DJ> an  abductee says that they do not want to go through hypnosis, I
 DJ> respect  their judgement.  That decision is the right one for
 DJ> them.  Getting the  person to write down the remembrances is a
 DJ> good idea, but Ihave learned  that a person's conscious
 DJ> recollections are not always trustworthy, so be  skeptical about
 DJ> the details of any consciously recalled episode.


The problem, of course, is that I hear from every other quarter that
hypnotically-recalled memories are not to be trusted either. What's a mother
to do?




 DJ>     Finally, (it is late at night, I'm tired, and I'm rambling)
 DJ> it is  important to note that to the best of my knowledge, not a
 DJ> single  abduction case has ever been found to have been
 DJ> unequivocably caused by  abuse, sexual, physical, or emotional.

How would one go about proving such a thing "unequivocably"?


Good to see you back.



Jim


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Abductee list
Date: 18 Jan 92 07:21:52 GMT

Hello Keith. I would like to thank you for the listing of the possible
abduction cases that you have been working on.  These are exactly the  type of
raw reports that Budd Hopkins and I have been delving into.  I  was unaware
that you were so involved in actual investigation of these  cases.  Do you do
your own hypnosis or do you have a competent hypnotist  with whom you work?  In
evaluating the quality of these consciously  remembered events, one must be
very careful not to take everything at face  value--oftentimes consciously
remembered events are not as accurate as  those recalled in a more controlled
and systematic recall environment.   Also, one must be quite cautious about
disregarding cases as being  internally generated because the consciously
remembered events do not fit  with what is known about abductions (at least on
the surface) or because  the person relating the events might have had an
unhappy childhood.  In  other words, be careful not to throw the baby out with
the bath water.  I  am hoping that when my book comes out it will  help clear
up a lot of  misconceptions about abductions and clarify what this phenomenon
is all  about--knowing full well, of course, that I will probably be wrong
about  most everything!
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Salem Therapist
Date: 18 Jan 92 07:32:34 GMT

I am not sure that I can help getting your therapist involved with abduction
research.  If she were to get on a local TV show and say that  she has an
interest in researching the subject (a newspaper story would also be effective)
she might be able to receive some clients that way.  I  have been doing a lot
of consulting with therapists around the country on  the proper ways to do
hypnosis with abductees also how to proceed with  therapy for them.  The
subject is so unprecedented that the better  therapists will take all the help
they can get.  The weaker therapists  think that they either know it all
already or can proceed with standard therapy based on their own nonabductee
experience.  I have found that the  weaker therapists can actually cause harm
when they thrash about not  knowing what to do or say.  Therefore, if the Salem
therapist wants to  talk with me please tell her to give me a call. (Of course
I do not  charge for any of my abduction work or consultations.)
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 42

                           Tuesday, January 21st 1992

Today's Topics:

                                 Salem Therapist
                                 Abduction Video
                                     Recall
                                      Abuse

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Salem Therapist
Date: 18 Jan 92 23:20:01 GMT



In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <18-Jan-92 00:32>
David Jacobs wrote:

DJ> I am not sure that I can help getting your therapist involved
DJ> with abduction research. If she were to get on a local TV show
DJ> and say that she has an interest in researching the subject (a
DJ> newspaper story would  also be effective) she might be able to
DJ> receive some clients that way.

Yes... that could supply prospective clients, but I'm afraid it
could also direct a substantial number of - shall we say -
"undesirables" to her office. I think she's interested in a more
screened approach, which I find understandable.

DJ> I have been doing a lot of consulting with therapists around
DJ> the country on the proper ways to do hypnosis with abductees
DJ> also how to proceed with therapy for them.

Do you mean to say that specific hypnotic technique and therapy
strategies are required for the competent handling of abductees,
differing from those normally employed by a skillful, experienced
psychotherapist? Do you not think it unwise to deviate from a more
widely accepted conventional approach, and generate case-specific
tactics? That in itself COULD yield inaccurate data.

DJ> The subject is so unprecedented that the better therapists will
DJ> take all the help they can get.

Not only will they take it, they are actively seeking it.

DJ> I have found that the weaker therapists can actually cause harm
DJ> when they thrash about not knowing what to do or say.

I agree... a therapist thrashing about, not knowing what to do or
say during a session, does not contribute to a good rapport. <g>

DJ> Therefore, if the Salem therapist wants to talk with me please
DJ> tell her to give me a call.

I shall... Can you post your office number?

DJ> (Of course I do not  charge for any of my abduction work or
DJ> consultations.)

You are certainly the exception, not the rule. That is most
gracious of you. I think one of the major reasons abductees fail to
get proper counseling, is that they simply can't afford it. It's a
shame there are so few that share your philanthropic demeanor.

Take care,

Sheldon

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Abduction Video
Date: 19 Jan 92 13:54:02 GMT


 I just picked up my copy of the new CUFOS video "Alien Abductions"
 and must tell you, Mark Rodeghier was not hyperbolizing one bit
 when he said it was good. Undersell would be more like it. It's
 extremely well done and delineates the abduction phenomenon in an
 objective, dispassionate manner. This enigmatic event is analyzed
 in both physical and psychological terms, allowing the viewer to
 contemplate the foundations and foibles of either possibility.

 It contains an interesting amalgam of archival footage and
 contemporary discussion with such notables as Bud Hopkins,
 John Mack, Walter Webb, Eddie Bullard, Michael Swords, Betty Hill,
 John Carpenter, Jerry Clark, George Eberhart, and, last but not
 least, Mark Rodeghier. As the credits rolled by, I also noticed a
 few "locals" such as Don Ecker, Jim Speiser, and Vicki Cooper. My
 hat's off to all of you. A job well done!

 The film runs a full 90 minutes, video/audio (stereo) quality is
 superb, great graphics and titling, and there are NO commercial
 interruptions, something I've found commonplace in tapes of this
 genre. I don't mean to sound like an advertisement myself, but
 the price is reasonable also. $23.00 (including postage and
 handling).

 It's currently available in VHS standard format, but copies will
 be obtainable shortly in PAL, for those of you listening in
 countries utilizing that standard.

 This videotape is available from:

 The Center for UFO Studies
 2457 W Peterson Avenue
 Chicago, IL 60659  312-271-3611

 -- Sheldon
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Recall
Date: 20 Jan 92 06:33:12 GMT


   Jim, I know that the conventional wisdom is that consciously recalled
material is supposedly more accurate than hypnotically recalled material.
 But, with the abduction phenomenon, it is a bit more complicated.  The  events
that have transpired in an abduction are stored in an area  of the mind that is
not accessible to normal recall except under  circumstances of relaxed and
focused concentration.  When this happens  the subject finally remembers the
experiences for the first time, as it  were, and allows the memories to pass
into an area of the mind where  they are amenable to normal recall.  After they
have been recalled for  the first time, they can then be forgotten much the
same as other  memories, traumatic and nontraumatic.  This is not to say that
all  hypnotically recalled memories are accurate--far from it.  Confabulation
is an important complicating factor that many inexperienced  investigators and
hypnotists have not fully recognized.  It is rare that  one does not have an
account with some confabulation in it.  Much of  this, I think, has to do with
memory storage and its relation to the  already stored memories of normal life,
dreams, and so on.  Furthermore,  as my book will detail, there are specific
mental procedures that are  administered on abductees during the event that
cause them to think that  they have seen or experienced things when, in fact,
they have not.  An  experienced investigator who understands the intricacies of
the abduction  phenomenon can sift through these "memories" and ascertain with
some  degree of accuracy the actual flow of events.
     Doing abduction research is quite difficult, and one of the most
difficult things to do is to sort through the testimony and decide what  is
real and what is not real (obviously, I am making assumptions here).   One
thing is sure though, consciously recalled material is certainly just  as
suspect as material recalled with the aid of hypnosis. Actually, a  good
example comes to mind; the piece that Budd Hopkins recently wrote  for IUR, I
believe, talking about two women who consciously remembered  seeing a six car
pile-up in the middle of an urban intersection very late  at night.
Investigation revealed that there was no such accident and  both women were
made to believe that they had seen it a short time before  an abduction.
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Abuse
Date: 20 Jan 92 07:05:29 GMT


   Sorry Jim, in my previous message I forgot to address the problem of  people
thinking that abductions are caused by abuse.  Saying that sexual,  physical,
and emotional abuse causes people to think that they have been  abducted by
aliens is all the vogue these days in the therapeutic  community.  It seems to
make sense:  The abuse is so traumatic that the  person, usually child,
disassociates and buries the traumatic events  under a more acceptable cover
memory.  There are, of course, many  problems with this theory.  First of all,
the majority of abductees do  not have a history of childhood abuse, but some
abductees do have abuse in  their backgrounds.  For these abductees, the abuse
has been dealt with in  standard therapy and they have learned to come to terms
with it.  Thus,  they would have no psychological need to disassociate and
invent  abduction tales.  Furthermore, many abductions are are multiple.
 People  see others being abducted who will independentally confirm the events.
  How this relates to abuse is difficult to imagine.  In addition, parents
often come to me or to other researchers frantically worried about their
children who are describing classic abduction events happening to them.
 They want me to try to alleviate the situation or help the child in some  way
(incidentally, I do not work with children).  Although it is  possible, the
chances are against parents bringing their children in for  counseling when
they are in the act of systematically, and brutally  abusing them.  Finally,
with all the talk of abuse and abductions, I have  heard of no instances in
which abduction cases have been shown to be the  result of abuse.  The problem
is that talk is cheap.  All someone has to  do is simply claim that an
abduction was caused by childhood abuse.   Saying it makes it so.  What I am
saying is that there is no evidence to  suggest that this is the case.
     There are many other reasons militating against the facile theory of
abuse generating abductions, but I can't go into all of them.  Suffice it  to
say, the abuse theory is, I believe, untenable.
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 43

                           Friday, January 24th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                  Recall-Abuse
                               Abduction research
                                 Abduction Video
                                     Recall
                               Abduction Research
                               Abduction research

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Recall-Abuse
Date: 22 Jan 92 05:02:03 GMT


In a message to Jim Speiser <19-Jan-92 23:33>
David Jacobs wrote:

DJ> But, with the abduction phenomenon, it is a bit more
DJ> complicated. The events that have transpired in an abduction
DJ> are stored in an area of the mind that is not accessible to
DJ> normal recall except under circumstances of relaxed and focused
DJ> concentration.

Hi Dave, when you use the term 'mind' here, are you referring to a
specific physical region of the brain... and if so, what structures
are involved? Or, are you alluding to something more akin to
compartmentalized memory?

DJ> When this happens the subject finally remembers the
DJ> experiences for the first time, as it were, and allows the
DJ> memories to pass into an area of the mind where they are
DJ> amenable to normal recall.

Which area of the 'mind' do the memories pass into to make them
retrievable?

DJ> Doing abduction research is quite difficult, and one of the
DJ> most difficult things to do is to sort through the testimony
DJ> and decide what is real and what is not real (obviously, I am
DJ> making assumptions here).

Perhaps, but a most valid assumption! Isn't attempting to discern
reality from misinterpretation the whole crux of the matter here -
not only in abductions, but in ufology in toto?

DJ> One thing is sure though, consciously recalled material is
DJ> certainly just as suspect as material recalled with the aid of
DJ> hypnosis.

MAYBE even more so. *IF* a screen memory actually has been
implanted by someone (or something), it seems logical that the
screen is what the individual will consciously recall.

DJ> First of all, the majority of abductees do not have a history
DJ> of childhood abuse, but some abductees do have abuse in their
DJ> backgrounds.

Obviously some do, but is it a statistically significant number? Of
your cases investigated, what percentage have you found to contain
a history of abuse, and what psychological evaluation techniques
were utilized to spot this abuse?

DJ> For these abductees, the abuse has been dealt with in standard
DJ> therapy and they have learned to come to terms with it. Thus,
DJ> they would have no psychological need to disassociate and
DJ> invent abduction tales.

Is it not possible that some of your subjects *HAVE* suffered
abuse, but have not yet dealt with it in conventional therapy?

DJ> Furthermore, many abductions are multiple. People see
DJ> others being abducted who will independentally confirm the
DJ> events. How this relates to abuse is difficult to imagine.

I agree Dave, these would be the most difficult to explain through
psychological models.

DJ> Although it is possible, the chances are against parents
DJ> bringing their children in for counseling when they are in the
DJ> act of systematically, and brutally abusing them.

Seems logical... although I can also envision that as being the
'perfect cover' for the abusive parent. Who would suspect a parent
who was concerned enough to bring their child in for therapy?
Children will tell very little to the therapist when under the
threat of abuse.

DJ> All someone has to do is simply claim that an abduction was
DJ> caused by childhood abuse. Saying it makes it so. What I am
DJ> saying is that there is no evidence to suggest that this is the
DJ> case.

Please let me clarify something about my views in this Dave. All I
can say at this point is that I have noticed what appears to be a
statistically significant number of individuals that claim
abduction, to have also experienced moderate to severe physical,
sexual, or emotional abuse at some point in their past. I am not
stating that abduction is CAUSED by abuse, merely that there
appears to be a correlation in SOME cases.

Finally, I received your letter today re: the topic I had written
to you about in December. Would it be OK with you to discuss that
issue in this forum?

Take care,

Sheldon

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Bill Chalker UFORA Associate NSW)
Subject: Abduction research
Date: 19 Jan 92 18:05:00 GMT

David, Welcome back to this folder.  I am especially pleased
to have the opportunity of communicating with you in a more
direct fashion.
You may recollect that corridor "debate" Jenny Randles & I
had with you and an associate back at the Washington MUFON
conference in 1987.
I was please to have had the opportunity to meet you
directly albeit within the the constraints of a busy
conference.
I've been looking into abductions in Australia since the mid
70s.  The Journal of UFO Studies recently in a review by
Keith Basterfield, the Godics & Mark Rodeghier highlighted
that "I presented the first comprehensive discussion of
Australian abductions" but dates the reference to 1984. That
was a later appearance of a paper that was first aired at an
Australian UFO conference in October 1979.  It was published
in the MUFON Journal in August, 1980.
Previously to this I had presented a paper "Beyond the CE3
Down Under: Notes on the Apparent Absence of Contact, Time
Lapse and Abduction Cases in Australia", at an Australian
UFO conference in November, 1977.
These 2 papers summarised the early phase of my research in
Australia abduction experiences.
Although a number of cases were being looked at, concerns
about the use of hypnotic techniques and other considerations
of witness welfare and ethics delayed a more intensive
examination of this aspect of the UFO controversy.  Also
cases until the late 80s were few and far between at least
for Australia.  With Dick Haines 3 stage technique and study
protocol I at last felt that there were procedures that
could be used that allayed my concerns about abduction
research methodology.
I then spent sometime evaluating a suitable professional
person to help me.  I was not going to get involved in doing
regressions myself.  Since 1988 I have been working with a
very qualified clinical hypnotherapist/clinical psychologist
on a long term informal research programme.  I have also
carried out seperate personal research and have worked
closely with others , in particular the UFORA network,
specifically Keith BAsterfield and Vladimir & Pony Godic.
Now after having been involved with more than 30 cases I am
still undecided as to whether abduction type cases tell us
more more about ourselves or UFOs. A bit of both I think.
My research has not confirmed the strong patterns you and
Budd have come across, but there are individual cases that
have some of these elements.
Some of my research has been covered in the review articles
by Keith Basterfield and the Godics in IUR (July/August,
1989 & May/June, 1990) as well as by Mark Moravec, ACUFOS
Bulletin, March, 1990.
Seperately I have had published articles in Australian
Penthouse, November, 1989 ("Abducted?" - a general review,
which also lists 6 Australian cases) and Nature & Health,
Autumn, 1990 ("Alien Abductions - a shamanic perspective on
UFOs").  The latter articles expands on the shaman theme
that I raised in my Washington conversation with you.  I
still feel that until the similarities that occur between
UFO abduction and shamanic initiations etc, are reconciled
and satisfactorally explained we will be left with an
incomplete picture of the abduction question.
I look forward to ongoing research dialogue, Regards from
Bill Chalker

--
Bill Chalker UFORA Associate NSW - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Abduction Video
Date: 22 Jan 92 06:17:44 GMT

In a message to All <19 Jan 92 06:54> Sheldon Wernikoff wrote:

 SW> least, Mark Rodeghier. As the credits rolled by, I also noticed a
 SW> few "locals" such as Don Ecker, Jim Speiser, and Vicki Cooper. My
 SW> hat's off to all of you. A job well done!


Aw, jeez, now I guess I'll HAVE to buy one...<grin>


Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Recall
Date: 22 Jan 92 06:38:44 GMT

Dave:


Thanks for your thoughts. And I'm glad you're back and that things are
starting to cook around here.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Abduction Research
Date: 24 Jan 92 02:56:01 GMT



In a message to David Jacobs <19-Jan-92 11:05>
Bill Chalker wrote:

BC> With Dick Haines 3 stage technique and study protocol I at last
BC> felt that there were procedures that could be used that allayed
BC> my concerns about abduction research methodology. I then spent
BC> sometime evaluating a suitable professional person to help me.

Bill, what were your principal criteria in evaluating and
ultimately selecting your associate hypnotherapist/psychologist?

BC> Now after having been involved with more than 30 cases I am
BC> still undecided as to whether abduction type cases tell us more
BC> more about ourselves or UFOs. A bit of both I think.

Thus far, I would have to say it's ourselves. But as everyone in
this forum is aware, there are many cases that just cannot be
explained away though psychological methods.

BC> I still feel that until the similarities that occur between UFO
BC> abduction and shamanic initiations etc, are reconciled and
BC> satisfactorily explained we will be left with an incomplete
BC> picture of the abduction question.

Could you elaborate a bit on this area Bill?

Take care,

-- Sheldon

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Brent Wilcox)
Subject: Abduction research
Date: 23 Jan 92 21:04:50 GMT

In a message to David Jacobs <19 Jan 92 11:05> Bill Chalker wrote:

 BC> Autumn, 1990 ("Alien Abductions - a shamanic perspective on
 BC> UFOs").  The latter articles expands on the shaman theme that I
 BC> raised in my Washington conversation with you.  I still feel that
 BC> until the similarities that occur between UFO abduction and
 BC> shamanic initiations etc, are reconciled and satisfactorally
 BC> explained we will be left with an
 BC> incomplete picture of the abduction question.

Bill --

Where can I find a copy of the Shamanic/Abduction article?  I'll
gladly send an envelope and ISCs...  I didn't know any work had been
done along those lines, but it's a relationship I've been toying with
myself for a couple years, informally, and I'd be fascinated to see
what you've written about it.

Thanks.

-- Brent


--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 44

                           Monday, January 27th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                    Hypnosis
                                      Hello
                                  Re: If Ufo's
                                 Re: abductions
                                 Re: abductions
                                    hypnosis
                                     Thanks

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Hypnosis
Date: 25 Jan 92 05:57:20 GMT


    When I speak of training hypnotists and hypnotherapists in how to do
hypnosis, I mean in the specific hypnosis of abductees.  There is nothing very
mysterious about the technique of doing hypnosis--it is so simple  that
virtually anyone can do it with a few minutes of study.  The most  important
element is whether the subject allows himself to be hypnotized.  I do not think
that I can hypnotize a person who does not want to be  hypnotized.  But once a
"trance" has been induced, then what?  For  hypnotherapists engaged in standard
therapy there are recognized procedures  to be followed, suggestions to be
made, and pathways to be travelled.
 These procedures have been taught to the therapist by a trainer or by  books,
and they are the product of an established body of thought that  has been
developed over the years.
     The abduction phenomenon is so new that procedures are only now being
established.  Very few people have systematically paid attention to the  manner
in which questions should be asked of abductees.  Much of this depends on the
amount of knowledge that the investigator has about  abductions.  Asking the
right questions in the right way at the right  time with the right inflection
and with knowledge behind the question is  not easy.  Furthermore, recognizing
confabulation, false memories, dream  material, and skips in an abductee's
testimony only comes about with a  thorough knowledge of the intricacies of
the abduction phenomenon.   Needless to say therapists have absolutely no idea
what they are doing  when they begin hypnotizing abductees.  This can be a
tricky situation  for the abductee.  Often an abductee goes to a hypnotist to
find out what  is going on with him, and the hypnotist, not knowledgeable in
abductions,  is not only unable to bring him insight into his situation, but
unknowingly can even allow false memories and confabulation to appear to  be
reality to the abductee.  This, of course, does the abductee a  disservice, and
can even be psychologically harmful.  Therefore my  consulting consists of
telling therapists what the abduction phenomenon  is all about, what to expect
in a hypnotic session, how to break through  resistance and blocks, when to
therapeutically intervene in the middle of  a session, and so forth.  They are
perfectly free to use the formal  structure of hypnosis that they have used
before, but it must be  remembered that the abduction phenomenon is very
different than  anything that therapists have ever encountered and they must
"retool"  somewhat if they are going to be helpful.
     My office phone number in Philadelphia is [phone].
 I will be happy to talk to the Salem therapist if she calls me.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

--
David Jacobs - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Hello
Date: 25 Jan 92 06:13:58 GMT


    Hello Bill, I am glad to see that you are still invovled in thinking about
the abduction phenomenon.  I do remember the conversation that we  had at the
MUFON conference in 1987 with Jenny and with David Chernikoff.  I do not know
if my book will be sent to Australia, but if you get a  chance to read it, I
would be very interested in your comments.  From  what Keith has been saying
the abduction phenomenon appears to be exactly  the same in Australia as it is
the United States.  I believe, however,  that we have made more headway in
investigation and research. I think  that when all is said and done, the
world-wide dimensions of abductions  will be firmly established.  In the United
States, more and more UFO  researchers are recognizing the enormous magnitude
of the phenomenon and  it is my belief that eventually all of UFO research will
be abduction  research.  In fact, I believe that I made this point in a paper
at the  1987 conference.  No other area of UFO research allows us to study the
intentions of the beings behind the objects.  Without the abduction phenomenon
we are back to square one--studying reports of sightings of the outside shells
of objects, their effect upon the environment, and the  witnesses who make the
reports. I do not think that we can go back to  that.  We know a tremendous
amount about UFO sightings and we have for a very long time.  In a sense we had
gone about as far as we could go with  sightings.  The abduction phenomenon
gives us entree into the purposes and  motivations behind the sightings.  It
is the breakthrough, I think, that  we have been all waiting for.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

--
David Jacobs - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: If Ufo's
Date: 26 Jan 92 02:16:00 GMT

>We must keep in touch and share thoughts and
>experiences, in my opinion, and we must not ridicule those who think
>they have seem something truly unexplainable.

Good plan...

--
Sue Widemark - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 26 Jan 92 02:18:00 GMT

>Having said all of this can we PLEASE get back on the abduction issue?
>If you have problems with this, take it up with your sysop and allow
>him/her to discuss it in our sysop area.

No problems with that.  I am still looking for good research material
on the subject...

--
Sue Widemark - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 26 Jan 92 02:22:00 GMT

>I will be very interested, amazed, and willing to listen if Mensa
>members can *produce* evidence to support their religious claims.
>

Quite a bit can be produced - but the area host has made a request to
get back to the subject at hand and I agree with him... that thread got
way out of hand.  If you wish more info on the religious claims, please
log on my BBS - we have a religion board etc.

{Sue}
{Cheese Whiz Wildcat! BBS 602-279-0793 <300/1200/2400}

P.S. and I would like to see evidence on the subject of abductions...
do you have any to share?

--
Sue Widemark - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: hypnosis
Date: 27 Jan 92 00:16:02 GMT


Hello David,

Thanks for your recent post re: hypnosis and the abductee. I do
have some questions/comments which will have to wait a bit due to
tight time constraints today.

Your offer to speak with my friend in Salem is most accommodating.
Her address/phone is:

Dr. Michele Lecher
c/o Salem Clinic, P.C.
2020 Capitol Street, N.E.
Salem, OR 97303       Tel: [phone]

I shall forward your # to her so she may contact you.

Thanks again,

Sheldon

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Thanks
Date: 27 Jan 92 03:36:38 GMT

Keith:


Am in receipt of the materials and thanks. I especially enjoyed the interview
with Eddie Bullard. It is to no small degree because of Eddie's continued
involvement in, progress on, and ultimate bewilderment at the abduction
phenomenon that I continue to be intrigued by it myself. I figger if a dude
that smart says its a puzzlement, then by golly it durn well be a puzzlement.
And I do get the impression from the interview that he is very bothered by it.
While he says *some* of it has to be psychological, he has no explanation for
the cases that seem real. Certainly he seems to have all but abandoned
folkloric transmission.


Please keep up the good work on Abductions Down Under, and thanks again!


Jim

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                          Abduction Digest, Number 45

                          Wednesday, January 29th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                     Apology
                                Abduction Report
                                     Apology
                               Abduction Research

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Apology
Date: 28 Jan 92 04:50:02 GMT


David,

This came as a great shock to me, but apparently the echo
coordinator, Doug Rogers, and others on this network, believe that
I have been "attacking" you with my line of questions and comments
regarding your recent posts. Nothing could be further from the
truth. I have the utmost respect and admiration for your work, and
am most appreciative of your participation in this network. When I
see something that doesn't quite ring true with me, I ask questions
and make comments based on my limited experience from my dilettante
perspective.

If I have offended you, I sincerely apologize, and I can assure you
that no hostile assault was intended. I know I can learn a great
deal from you, and perhaps make some small contribution to
abduction analysis. The pursuit of truth and knowledge has been my
objective, yet Doug seems to feel I have been attacking the way you
administer to your patients and do your research.

What follows is extracted from Doug Rogers' statement regarding my
correspondence with you. Once again David, I must offer my defense
of complete obliviousness to the fact that I was acting in an
ostensibly inappropriate manner.

I hope we can carry on with our dialogue.

Sincerely, Sheldon
-------------------------------------------------------------------
In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <21-Jan-92 20:14>
Doug Rogers wrote:

DR> The crux of my complaint to you has to do with your persistance
DR> in voicing your unsuported opinions in areas where you have no
DR> expertise, especially in the face of those who have proven to
DR> have expertise. I'm especially talking at this point about your
DR> posts to Dr. Jacobs. I am a practicing counselor in addition to
DR> being a professor of mass communications. Let me assure you,
DR> Dr. Jacobs is posting a rock solid, defensible line in this
DR> work. He has too great a reputation to do otherwise. Yet, you
DR> take up bandwidth asking him questions that attack the way he
DR> treats his patients and does his research.

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Abduction Report
Date: 28 Jan 92 04:50:03 GMT


Hello Keith,

I wanted to advise you that I am having a woman from the Chicago
area write to you re: her abduction experience. Coincidentally, she
has also spent some time in Australia a few years back.

If you like, I can forward your response to her via this network,
as she has no objection to our discussing her case in this forum.

I trust you will find her material of interest.

Take care,

Sheldon

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Apology
Date: 29 Jan 92 07:41:00 GMT


 > In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <21-Jan-92 20:14>
 > Doug Rogers wrote:
 >
 > DR> The crux of my complaint to you has to do with your
 > DR> persistance in voicing your unsuported opinions in areas
 > DR> where you have no
 > DR> expertise, especially in the face of those who have proven
 > DR> to have expertise. I'm especially talking at this point
 > DR> about your
 > DR>  posts to Dr. Jacobs. I am a practicing counselor in addition
 > DR> to being a professor of mass communications. Let me
 > DR> assure you,
 > DR> Dr. Jacobs is posting a rock solid, defensible line in this
 > DR> work. He has too great a reputation to do otherwise. Yet,
 > DR> you take up bandwidth asking him questions that attack
 > DR> the way he
 > DR> treats his patients and does his research.

Sheldon:
          I thought that your points were well taken, expressing
legitimate concern about something Dr. Jacobs will surely be
expected to explain once he starts "making the circuit" upon the
release of his new book.  I found nothing hostile about your
questions.

          There is a distasteful odor of "believerism" around
when people are discouraged from having the chutzpah to question
the "Authorities" in this field about their methodologies.

          I am similarly disturbed about the outrage expressed
in _UFO_ magazine over Jerry Clark's treatment of Jaques Vallee.
I found "The Sage of Canby" to be much more restrained in his
recent article than he was in his earlier critique of
_Confrontations_.  Even *if* those two guys hate each other,
their debate is an important one for the rest of us who share an
interest in these topics.  If some of us want to take sides,
fine.  Trying to squelch the opposition is another matter.

                                  --  John

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Bill Chalker UFORA Associate NSW)
Subject: Abduction Research
Date: 26 Jan 92 19:26:00 GMT

Sheldon, Here are some comments re your message:

 > Bill, what were your principal criteria in evaluating
 > and ultimately selecting your associate
 > hypnotherapist/psychologist?

1. professional & qualified psychologist
2. extensive experience in practical therapuetic use in
   hypnosis
3. no strong opinions either way on the UFO subject.
4. open mind
5. a willingness to use Richard Haines 3 stage technique and
   protocol as a guide
I was fortunate to find the one I did.  The psychologist is
also on the board that registers professional psychologists
in my state, so she is well regarded by peers.

 > Thus far, I would have to say it's ourselves. But as
 > everyone in
 > this forum is aware, there are many cases that just
 > cannot be > explained away though psychological methods.

Yes I agree.  This is why I am open as to the explanations
and am very keen to learn of the work of others.

 > BC> I still feel that until the similarities that occur between
 > UFOBC> abduction and shamanic initiations etc, are
 > reconciled and
 > BC> satisfactorily explained we will be left with an incomplete
 > BC> picture of the abduction question.
 >
 > Could you elaborate a bit on this area Bill?

Yes I will, however it will have to be next time as I have
run out of time in my polling window.  Stay tuned.
Regards, Bill.

--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 46

                           Monday, February 3rd 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                               Abduction Research
                                     Apology
                                   Criticisms
                                   Abductions
                                 Abduction case
                                       FPP
                                     Apology
                                     Apology
                                 Re: abductions
                                 Re: Criticisms
                                   Criticisms
                                     Apology

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Abduction Research
Date: 30 Jan 92 02:39:02 GMT


In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <26-Jan-92 12:26>
Bill Chalker wrote:

BC> 1. professional & qualified psychologist
BC> 2. extensive experience in practical therapuetic use in
BC> hypnosis
BC> 3. no strong opinions either way on the UFO subject.
BC> 4. open mind
BC> 5. a willingness to use Richard Haines 3 stage technique and
BC> protocol as a guide

Wonderful criteria Bill. I agree that it is especially important
that the therapist have no definite pro or con proclivity, but
after years of investigations, how does one maintain their
impartial stance?

In my opinion, therapists who focus *solely* on the abduction
question are, in some instances, doing their patients a potential
injustice. Edith Fiore, Ph.D. is a case in point. She has always
specialized in a strict paranormal approach, moving from the vogue
of past life regressions in the '70s to the abduction scenarios of
the '90s. It is important, and difficult, to preserve a measure of
detachment from the issue at hand.

Take care,

Sheldon

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Apology
Date: 30 Jan 92 02:40:03 GMT


In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <29-Jan-92 00:41>
John Burke wrote:

JB> I thought that your points were well taken, expressing
JB> legitimate concern about something Dr. Jacobs will surely be
JB> expected to explain once he starts "making the circuit" upon
JB> the release of his new book. I found nothing hostile about your
JB> questions.

JB> If some of us want to take sides, fine. Trying to
JB> squelch the opposition is another matter.

John, your reassuring comments mean a great deal to me. Thanks for
responding.

Take care,

Sheldon
--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Criticisms
Date: 31 Jan 92 07:19:57 GMT


    Although the last thing that I wanted to do was to provoke a dispute  among
the Paranet respondents, I think that the very nature of the  material creates
strong feelings pro and con.  Sheldon, I did not think  that you were attacking
me.  I have become accostumed to heavy-hitting  attacks from all quarters. This
is not to say that I can satisfactorily  answer them all, but in this field the
attack is the norm and I did not
 feel as though you were doing anything other than expressing surprise.   Doug,
I would like to thank you for mounting a defense. Budd Hopkins and I feel quite
embattled these days.  There are only a few of us who take  the position that
we do and therefore we are pretty much fair game for  any and all.  As you know
it is complex enough to defend the UFO  phenomenon in general against attacks,
let alone having to defend the  abduction phenomenon, which is as "far out" as
one can get these days.   Our position that the abductees are describing an
external, objective  reality and are therefore victims is one that virtually
everyone can find  weaknesses in.  Just the problems involved with hypnosis are
enough to  put the stopper on believability.  Once you get past hypnosis then
you  rapidly become involved with the extremes of the bizarre.  Therefore any
defense that comes my way I gratefully accept.
     When my book comes out next month I fully expect to be pretty much savaged
by almost everyone.  In spite of this, I feel that I, and Budd,  and John Mack
at Harvard, and John Carpenter in St. Louis, and others who  share a common
opinion will, in the end, prove to be correct.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

--
David Jacobs - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Abductions
Date: 31 Jan 92 03:09:00 GMT

David, Thank you very much for the warm welcome and your comments
about Australian abduction research. Abduction research is certainly
an area fraught with dangers for the young players.
As you say there are cases where abductions are recalled without the
use of hypnosis. Locally there are most definitely instances of
physicality. In the "Carol Williams" event where she recalled an event
at age 15 which occurred in a shared bedroom, her bedroom companion,
another woman was certainly able to confirm the initial stages of the
event. In "Susan"'s case, I managed to locate her sister who confirmed
the observation of a ball of light floating into the bedroom, which
Susan says was ahead of the abduction party. In "Julian"s case both he
and his wife have conscious recall of apparent abduction events.

The Maureen Puddy 1972/73 case was investigated in depth by two lots
of Australian researchers. Firstly by Garry Little and Bill Stapleton
and secondly by Paul Norman and Judith Magee. Magee wrote up the case
in the English "Flying Saucer Review" Vol 18 no 6 Nov/Dec 1972 and FSR
Vol 24 no 3 Nov 1978. It is referenced as case 209 in Bullard's
"Measure of a Mystery."

On one occasion in an involved sequence of sightings, Puddy was in a
car with Norman and Magee, lapsed into a "trance" and whilst
physically still present with them, started to relate being inside a
round room, entity there, etc. She became frightened and came out of
the "trance." She stated she could not recall what had happened whilst
she was "unconscious." It bears all the hallmarks of an apparent
abduction but the woman was at all times firmly physically in the
preence of two top Australian ufo researchers.

I believe Jenny Randles referred to a UK abduction case involving
gaynor Sunderland where an abduction was reported whilst the young
girl was seen to be sleeping in her bed, by her mother.

Locally, I believe we have yet to have an abduction reported where
independent witnesses see the abduction occurring or where someone is
definitely seen to be physically absent during the event. However,
bear in mind when I collated a catalogue of Australian abductions in
April 1991 we had only uncovered 43 such events. I notice Bill said he
had come across some 30 cases.

Anyway, a pleasure chatting to you and others, and I trust we will
have many more enjoyable and informative chats.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Abduction case
Date: 31 Jan 92 04:48:00 GMT

I shall wait with interest to hear from the person concerned. Thanks.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: FPP
Date: 31 Jan 92 05:26:00 GMT

John H Chalmers recently asked me for a reading list from mainstream
psych journals. It may be of interest to others.
1. Wilson, S.C. & Barber, T.X. (1981). Vivid Fantasy and
Hallucinatory Abilities in the Life Histories of Excellent Hypnotic
Subjects, in Klinger, E. (ed). Imagery: Vol 2. New York. Plenum. 2.
Wilson, S.C. & Barber, T.X. (1982). The Fantasy-Prone Personality:
Implications for Understanding Imagery, Hypnosis and
Parapsychological Phenomena. PSI Research 1(3):94-116. 3. Wilson,
S.C. & Barber, T.X. (1983). The Fantasy-Prone
Personality:Implications for Understanding Imagery, Hypnosis and
Parasychological Phenomena. Chapter 12 in Sheitch, A. (ed).
Imagery:Current Theory, Research and Applications. New York. Wiley.
4. Myers, S.A. & Austrin, H. R. (1985). Distal Eidetic
Technology:Further Characteristics of the Fantasy-Prone Personality.
Journal of Mental Imagery 9(3):57-66. 5. Lynn, S. J. & Rhue, J. W.
(1986). The Fantasy-Prone Person:Hypnosis, Imagination and
Creativity. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology
51(2):404-408. 6. Richardson, A. (1986). A Follow-up of Nine
Typographic Eidetikers. Psychologia:An International Journal of
Psychology in the Orient 29(3):165-175. 7. Rhue, J. W. & Lynn, S.J.
(1987). Fantasy-Proneness:Developmental Antecedents. Journal of
Personality 55(1): 121-137. 8. Lynn, S.J. & Rhue, J. W. (1988).
Fantasy-Proneness. American Psychologist 43(1):35-44. 9. Rhue, J. W.
& Lynn, S.J. (1989). Fantasy-Proness, Hypnotizability and Absorption:
A Re-examination. International Journal of Clinical and Experimental
Hypnosis 37(2):100-106. 10 Fellows, B. & Wright, V. (1989).
Fantasy-Proneness: Data and Observations on the British Use of the
Inventory of Childhood memories and Imaginings. British Journal of
Experimental and clinical Hypnosis 6(1):57-59.
Unfortunately I find that many UFO researchers have failed to read some of
the above material before relegating the FPP hypothesis as a potential
explanation for some abduction cases to the trash can. In abductions
there is a thread of "alien babies" being removed from pregnant
women. Barber and Wilson relate how two of their FPP hypnotic
subjects fully believed they were pregnant and went for abortions
only to find no evidence of pregnancy. If these women had been
investigated by UFO researchers and not by psychologists chances are
the "missing baby" file would have had two more cases logged. Very few
people are aware of this research, and these findings cannot be
overstated.  You can have amazing facts without necessarily
introducing alien intervention.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Apology
Date: 29 Jan 92 07:41:00 GMT


 > In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <21-Jan-92 20:14>
 > Doug Rogers wrote:
 >
 > DR> The crux of my complaint to you has to do with your
 > DR> persistance in voicing your unsuported opinions in areas
 > DR> where you have no
 > DR> expertise, especially in the face of those who have proven
 > DR> to have expertise. I'm especially talking at this point
 > DR> about your
 > DR>  posts to Dr. Jacobs. I am a practicing counselor in addition
 > DR> to being a professor of mass communications. Let me
 > DR> assure you,
 > DR> Dr. Jacobs is posting a rock solid, defensible line in this
 > DR> work. He has too great a reputation to do otherwise. Yet,
 > DR> you take up bandwidth asking him questions that attack
 > DR> the way he
 > DR> treats his patients and does his research.

Sheldon:
          I thought that your points were well taken, expressing legitimate
concern about something Dr. Jacobs will surely be expected to explain once he
starts "making the circuit" upon the release of his new book.  I found nothing
hostile about your questions.

          There is a distasteful odor of "believerism" around when people are
discouraged from having the chutzpah to question the "Authorities" in this
field about their methodologies.

          I am similarly disturbed about the outrage expressed in _UFO_
magazine over Jerry Clark's treatment of Jaques Vallee. I found "The Sage of
Canby" to be much more restrained in his recent article than he was in his
earlier critique of _Confrontations_.  Even *if* those two guys hate each
other, their debate is an important one for the rest of us who share an
interest in these topics.  If some of us want to take sides, fine.  Trying to
squelch the opposition is another matter.

                                  --  John

--
John Burke - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Apology
Date: 31 Jan 92 05:51:00 GMT

I would like to say that I have found Sheldon's observations, comments and
questions of great value in all areas of Paranet. This is not an
arena for "believers" but an open forum for discussion, debate,
disagreement and sharing of information. This is why I have been only
too willing to spend time sharing my Australian findings with all.
I'm happy to be corrected, debated, queried etc. If I can't discuss
it with people who have some knowledge on the subject, and practice
my thoughts and arguments here, then I will fail to convince and
interest health professionals and media people that they should take
abduction research seriously. Let's move on, and continue to discuss
research, theories etc and question everything and everyone (be they
THE EXPERT or not-we can all contribute.) Enough said, back to
research.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Danny Brandenburg)
Subject: Re: abductions
Date: 31 Jan 92 01:56:10 GMT

>Quite a bit can be produced - but the area host has made a request to go
>back to the to subject at hand and I agree with him... that thread got

   I Agreed!  There are other places to discuss that matter.  I too have a
a Wildcat! board with a large religious discussion area.  You too, of course,
are more than welcome to call and join in conversation.

>P.S. and I would like to see evidence on the subject of abductions...
>do you have any to share?

     Actually, I do not have any evidence to share on abductions.  I must
admit, I remain skeptical on the entire area of UFO abductions.  The hardest
evidence I can find is that which has been gathered through hypnosis. First
we must prove hypnosis before it can be reguarded as good evidence. Also,
through hypnosis, people can EASILY be given suggestions on what they either
could or should have seen.
    There is no doubt in my mind that in most, in most abduction claims, the
person abducted truly believes that they were abducted.  However, belief and
reality are to different things.  Perhaps abductions are a reality but I
need to find stronger evidence than what has been presented thus far to be
convinced.


--
Danny Brandenburg - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Doug Rogers)
Subject: Re: Criticisms
Date: 2 Feb 92 21:25:02 GMT


 >  feel as though you were doing anything other than expressing
 > surprise.   Doug, I would like to thank you for mounting
 > a defense.  Budd Hopkins and  I feel quite embattled these
 > days.  There are only a few of us who take  the position

You are most welcome, David.

I'm just doing my job.  It doesn't matter what the echo coordinator posts, it's
always wrong from someone's point of view.  As the moderator of this area, I'm
sure you are finding that out.

My comments were not intended to be public... that is why I sent them to
Sheldon privately.  Since he chose to make them public, all I can do is thank
you for the appreciation.  I, like you, get da*ned little of it, and any scaps
are sincerely accepted.

--
Doug Rogers - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Criticisms
Date: 3 Feb 92 00:12:01 GMT


Hello David,

It was most heartening to learn that apparently no one other than
Doug felt I was attacking you. Your kind words of understanding
were deeply appreciated.

In this unconventional discipline called ufology, we must all
endeavor to remain unprejudiced in our convictions, and responsive
to theory modification when warranted by variations in observed
data.

I strive to maintain a fairly detached perspective in the abduction
arena, which becomes increasingly difficult as more and more
statistics become available. This is an unavoidable effect, and I
am certain you find yourself being similarly influenced.

At present, I think we can all recognize that the abduction
phenomenon is an extremely complex issue, and that NOT ALL cases
can be resolved through known psychological archetypes. This latter
category seems diminutive, but no less portentous, than cases that
do SEEM explicable though more mundane means. Whatever is happening
to these individuals, seems to be occurring on at least two levels.

Physical trace cases, and those with corroborative witnesses, are
certainly intriguing, and those most likely to illustrate an
external event. For example, the recent incident Budd has been
involved with concerning two New York police officers who witnessed
an individual being "beamed" aboard a craft. A shared fantasy
between abductee and two credible witnesses seems highly unlikely.

I find that many of the foremost researchers seem to be searching
for the consummate, end-all-doubt abduction case. As a result, many
casualties of less extraordinary seizures, are going without
investigation and therapy, simply because their cases are less
interesting. This is a most unfortunate situation, as some of these
people are desperately in need of counseling. Lamentably, you just
cannot get quality professional care in this country without
insurance or a wheelbarrow full of cash.

As Keith Basterfield stated in a recent message... "let's move on,
and continue to discuss research, theories, etc. and question
*everything* and *everyone* (be they THE EXPERT or not - we can all
contribute.)

Thanks Dave,

Sheldon
--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Apology
Date: 3 Feb 92 00:13:02 GMT



In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <30-Jan-92 22:51>
Keith Basterfield wrote:

KB> I would like to say that I have found Sheldon's observations,
KB> comments and questions of great value in all areas of Paranet.

  You are too kind Keith. Those words of praise from a seasoned
  veteran such as yourself to a neophyte like me are certainly an
  aggrandizement of my abilities and knowledge.

KB> This is not an arena for "believers" but an open forum for
KB> discussion, debate, disagreement and sharing of information.

  That was also my conception of the philosophy behind ParaNet.

KB> Let's move on, and continue to discuss research, theories
KB> etc and question everything and everyone (be they THE EXPERT or
KB> not-we can all contribute.) Enough said, back to research.

  I agree Keith, internal bickering will only succeed in ravaging
  what little credibility we have all worked so diligently to
  ensconce in this field. Let us now return to our regularly
  scheduled program.

  Thanks for your post on the "Age" newspaper... encouraging to
  learn it is a respectable publication rather than a tabloid.
  Also, we can discuss the Chicago case when you receive the
  information.

  Take care,

  Sheldon

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 47

                          Tuesday, February 11th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                   Abductions
                                     Answers
                                Answers continued
                                   Abductions
                              Re: Premature Births
                                    Breakdown
                                   Abductions
                                  Your Wildcat!
                               Abduction Research

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Abductions
Date: 3 Feb 92 07:34:52 GMT


    I have recently written in my new book that to the best of my knowledge all
abductees have been physically not in place during the  abduction.  This
statement seems rather sweeping but I feel that it is  accurate.  The Puddy
case is interesting but quite obviously the event  that you describe is not an
abduction.  Mrs Puddy might indeed be an  abductee (the sightings that she had
earlier experienced might be  evidence of this) but the incident in the car has
all the earmarks of  either being a "channeled" episode or a flashback to a
previous event, or  evidence of mental instability.  Whereas on the surface it
might appear  that this has all the hallmarks of an apparent abduction, in fact
the  description that she gave of the entity, the entity's movements, the
entity's motivations, and so forth, would be immediately suspicious  to me. Her
description of the inside of a UFO might well have been  picked up either from
a previous abduction or from some outside  conventional source.  The only way
that one can find out these things  with a reasonable degree of assurance is by
doing hypnosis with somebody who thoroughly understands the abduction
phenomenon so that the hypnotist  and/or researcher can tell when she veers off
what is presently known  about abductions.  I hope that my book will help in
that endeavor.
     All of this goes back to the problem that Jim Speiser brought up about
what is to be believed in conscious recollections of unusual events. People
will confabulate, they will remember things wrongly, they will unconsciously
elaborate and add material, they will slip into  "channeling," and they will
exhibit evidence of mental abberations.   Separating the wheat from the chaff
is a difficult task.  But the most  important thing to understand is that there
is wheat.  Dwelling on the  chaff is like spending all of one's time ruminating
about UFO sightings  that are identified!  It was the sightings that could not
be identified  that brought us all here.
     It is true that we only have a few cases of uninvolved bystanders
witnessing an abduction of another person.  This situation is involved  with
the technology employed for carrying out the abduction.  Budd  Hopkins is at
present working on a sensational case that does include  bystanders witnessing
the abduction.  He will probably write a book about  it and it will go a very
long way towards putting this controversy to  rest.  The IUR will also publish
an article of mine addressing the issue.
     Budd and I have many cases in which people witness others being  abducted
and are not abducted themselves.  They are often "switched off"  so that they
can do nothing about it and their accounts are usually, but  not always,
recovered with the use of hypnosis.  We also have many cases  in which several
people are abducted at once and they can independently  confirm their
experiences without knowing that their fellow abductees  have also remembered
the event.
     Incidentally, Jenny Randles talks about the Sunderland case but makes  no
reference to her mother seeing her in bed during a supposed abduction.
 Keep up the good work!
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Answers
Date: 4 Feb 92 06:49:27 GMT


    Sheldon, I was not aware of your long messages on file, and I only recently
read them.  I will try to answer some of your queries as best I  can, but you
must remember that I certainly do not have all the answers  to all questions.
     Yes, it is possible that those people who are abducted and who ae  alone
and who are not seen by others might in some way still be  physically in place
during the abduction.  This is something that we  cannot be sure of.  In the
same way we cannot be sure that they did not  fly to Mars during their
abduction.  We cannot be sure that they did not  meet with President Bush and
then both forgot the incident. Please pardon  the humor, but we cannot prove a
negative.  All the evidence that we have  points to the fact that people are
not physically in place during an  abduction and none of the evidence we have
points to their being in  place (the Puddy case not withstanding--see my
remarks to Keith  Basterfield).
     Could two, three, four or more people have a shared fantasy inwhich  they
all see each other being abducted and then relate the same events in  minute
detail?  Yes, I suppose anything is possible.  Is there any  evidence for this?
Not a shred.  In fact even though Benjamin Simon  suggested the Hills were
involved with a shared fantasy, or folie a deux,  there was also no evidence
for this diagnosis other than what he thought.   You must remember that shared
fantasies in rich, minute, extraordinary  detail and length are so rare that
they are practically nonexistent  and most psychiatrists will never see a case
of it.

 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Answers continued
Date: 4 Feb 92 07:19:27 GMT


    Sorry I pressed the wrong buttons and inadvertently saved the message  in
mid-word.
   Do people who see others being abducted associate with them  afterwards?
Usually that is true.  In fact many of the episodes do not  come to light until
a very long time after the event.  Are they in  collusion to promote a hoax? I
guess it's possible, one cannot prove a  negative and therefore we will never
be able to prove that it did not  happen.  Is there any evidence for this?  Not
a shred.  Did they just  associate together and therefore pick up the stories
either consciously  or unconsciously?  I suppose that this is also possible,
but we have once  again found no evidence for it whatsoever.
     You mention that the data presented that you have read seems to suggest
that the abduction phenomenon is internally generated in greater numbers than
what I and my colleagues say.  The only thing that I can say  to that is that
in my research and in Budd Hopkins', the idea that  abductions are internally
generated has been carefully considered and  rejected as not fitting the
evidence as we have found it in our studies.  John Mack, a professor of
psychiatry at Harvard University, shares our views and is at a loss to explain
how these accounts could possibly be internally generated given the knowledge
that we have about the human  mind and about the abduction phenomenon.  I have
tried to address myself to these points in my book (perhaps not as successfully
as I should  have).

     How are memories stored in the mind?  I used the word "mind" on purpose
because I do not know the physiological mechanism for the  storage of memories
in the brain.  In fact, neurologists are just  beginning to make some headway
in this area.  Memory is not well  understood even in the most normal of
situations and I could not hope to  understand how abduction memories
physiologically differ.  The best that  I can do is to describe the process of
recollection and try to draw  analogies to best make it understood.  The best
way I can put it is that  the memories are "stored" in an "area of the mind"
that is not amenable  to "normal" recall.
   Does abuse cause abductions?  There is not a shred of evidence to  support
this contention.  It does not seem to matter whether people have  been abused
or not.  Are there more people abused who are abductees than  not?  To the best
of my abilities to estimate, the answer is no.  Unfortunately I have not
conducted a scientific poll to find out for  sure.  Of course, since science
cannot prove a negative, we can never be  absolutely sure that abductees were
not abused even though they may have  absolutely no awareness of it whatsoever.
 The problem here is that the  abduction phenomenon itself constitutes a form
of physical, emotional,  and sexual abuse.  How does one differentiate this
type of abuse from the  more common variety?  Now we are involved with the
complexity of studying  the abduction phenomenon and its effects on the
victims.  I have talked a  little bit about this in a piece that I wrote for
the Journal of UFO  Studies which is due out shortly (actually I am not sure
whether Mike  Swords is going to run my article--we'll see).
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Abductions
Date: 4 Feb 92 14:03:00 GMT

David,

Recently, Budd Hopkins was in Denver for a series of lectures on abduction
research.  He was a very captive guest and the people coming to the lecture
enjoyed him immensely.

I am curious on a couple of points:

1)  I have heard that there are "occult-" related incidents that usually
follow an alleged abduction experience.  An example is poltergeist activity,
heightened psychic perception, etc.  How many of your studies does this occur
in?  Have you found any type of patterns that would link a person's interest
or activities in such matters relevant to the experience?

2)  CUFOS has just produced a very good video, 'Contact UFO:  Alien
Abductions,' in which they produce statistics concerning data gleaned from
their abduction research.  In the video, they state that a certain percentage
of abduction experiences involve torture.  What does this mean to your
research?

3)  Do you feel that the related experience is an accurate rendition of what
actually happens or do you feel that the recalled memory may be some type of
programmed memory, actually hiding the true experience?

Thanks for your time.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Stelter)
Subject: Re: Premature Births
Date: 8 Feb 92 02:50:00 GMT


 I agree with you on the fact that some of the abductions could be memories
of seeing the doctors when being born, or possibly memories of other times
when the abducties might have been hospitalised for whatever reason. I myself
have been in the hospital twice and every now and again I wake up with same
recurring nightmare of people in blue standing around me doing whatever it
is they are doing. Believe me, it's a terrifying experiance. I'm not saying
that abductions do occur, but the majority of them are probobly just memories
of a hospital stay.

--
Steve Stelter - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: Breakdown
Date: 9 Feb 92 05:31:00 GMT


Due to a technical problem, we have lost some of the messages from
Paranet when I polled last Thursday, February 6. If anybody has sent
messages to Bill Chalker, Keith Basterfield (or myself) since
Saturday, February 1, would you kindly send them again. This is just
in case you have replied to some of our messages or have any queries.
We have had a few hiccups in transmission during the past two weeks.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Regards from "Down Under",

Vlad

--
Vladimir Godic - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David.Jacobs)
Subject: Abductions
Date: 8 Feb 92 06:31:42 GMT


    Mike, abductees frequently report poltergeist or relaed activity
that  happens to them.   When this has been reported to me and I have
 investigated it through hypnosis, the poltergeist activity
invariably  turns out to be abduction related events.  For example,
one man with whom  I had worked for over a year reported a strange
expereince in his  kitchen.  He was making rice in an electric rice
maker and instead of it  being done in the normal half-hour, it only
took two minutes.  His "take"  on the subject was that it was "them"
either sending him a "message" or  playing a "joke" on him, or it was
a sort of miraculous situation, which  in his world view, was just as
possible.  We did a session on the rice  incident and what had
happened was that he was in his kitchen making  rice, an abduction
occurred, and he was returned an hour later.  He had  completely
forgotten about the abduction, collapsed the two ends of it  and
"voila" the rice was cooked in two minutes.  With abductees I have
yet to see strange episodes not related in some way to the abduction
phenomenon.
     You also ask about the abduction video.  I have not seen the
video  nor was I consulted about it so I have no idea what is in it.
The  question of torture is a difficult one.  It depends on what you
mean by  that term.  If you mean the deliberate and malicious
infliction of bodily  and/or mental pain upon someone to elicit
information of some kind, then  the answer is no, it is not part of
the abduction scenario.  If you mean the  deliberate, but not
malicious, infliction of pain for purposes that are  obviously
fulfilling some sort of physiological or mental agenda, then  they
answer is yes, that does occur from time to time.  If you mean that
the abductees consider their situations to be torturous--that is to
say  unendurable because of the trauma inflicted by the entire
predicament  that they find themselves in, then the answer is
definitely yes.
     Mike you might also want to check out some of my previous
messages  regarding the reliability of hypnosis and consciously
recalled memories.   It is very common for people to "recall" events
that did not happen.  It  might be because that is the way they chose
to interpret the events, it  might be because they have mixed up
dream material in the events, or it  might be because specific and
detailed images have been placed in their  minds which is remembered
as "reality."
     The more you get into abduction research, the more you realize
how  complicated and subtle it is.
     Hope you liked Budd's presentation.  I assume that he laid to
rest  the idea that he wrote what the World Weekly News said he wrote.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

--
David
Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Your Wildcat!
Date: 8 Feb 92 22:45:00 GMT

>     I Agreed!  There are other places to discuss that matter.  I
>too have a a Wildcat! board with a large religious discussion area.
>You too, of course,
>are more than welcome to call and join in conversation.

Gif me the number and I will gladly call!

{Sue}
{Cheese Whiz Wildcat! BBS 602-279-0793 <300/1200/2400}

--
Sue Widemark - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Abduction Research
Date: 10 Feb 92 00:51:01 GMT


In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <05-Feb-92 00:49>
David Jacobs wrote:

DJ> Yes, it is possible that those people who are abducted and who
DJ> are alone and who are not seen by others might in some way
DJ> still be physically in place during the abduction. This is
DJ> something that we cannot be sure of.

When you state "might in some way still be physically in place
during the abduction", what exactly do you mean by "some way"? You
seem to be implying that perhaps the abductee is simultaneously in
more than one locale. Am I interpreting this accurately?

Also, through your observations, what are the approximate
percentages of abductions that ARE witnessed by non-participants
vs. those that are singular, unobserved events?

DJ> All the evidence that we have points to the fact that people
DJ> are not physically in place during an abduction and none of the
DJ> evidence we have points to their being in place (the Puddy case
DJ> not withstanding--see my remarks to Keith Basterfield).

I shall have to read of this evidence in your new book, and
hopefully, be convinced of its validity. I always thought that a
great many cases could not really be proven either way, due to a
lack of witnesses.

DJ> The only thing that I can say to that is that in my research
DJ> and in Budd Hopkins', the idea that abductions are internally
DJ> generated has been carefully considered and rejected as not
DJ> fitting the evidence as we have found it in our studies. John
DJ> Mack, a professor of psychiatry at Harvard University, shares
DJ> our views and is at a loss to explain how these accounts could
DJ> possibly be internally generated given the knowledge that we
DJ> have about the human mind and about the abduction phenomenon.

I understand and agree to a limited extent. For example, PTSD seems
to be generated *only* through an external event, and many, but not
all abductees appear to be suffering from it. We must all remain
open to the possibility that abductions are occurring on at least
two levels. One being capable of explanation though more mundane
psychological methods, the second being resistant to our attack
with conventional approaches. The latter is of course the crux of
this conference, but the former is really of no less significance.
If I am interpreting you correctly, virtually every abductee that
has made themselves available to you, Hopkins, et al, has shown no
sign of psychological deviation from traditionally accepted values,
that could possibly account for their abduction experience. If
true, that exceedingly high degree of "normality" amongst your
sampling would in itself make that population segment "abnormal",
since a certain degree of statistical deviation would be
anticipated.

DJ> The problem here is that the abduction phenomenon itself
DJ> constitutes a form of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse.
DJ> How does one differentiate this type of abuse from the more
DJ> common variety?

Good point... and an even better question. Obviously, we have only
begun to scratch the surface of this mystery. A great deal more
contemplation of the observed data, and continued serious, ongoing
investigation is necessary to fully assess what we are confronted
with.

Again David, I look forward to reading _Secret Life_, which I
understand will be on the shelf in Chicago by the end of this week.
Hopefully, your undertaking will prompt other professionals to
enter into the abduction realm, advancing our knowledge and
understanding of this most bewildering event.

Take care,

Sheldon

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 48

                          Tuesday, February 18th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                             Abductions in the Media
                                 Message Re-send
                                   Abductions

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Abductions in the Media
Date: 11 Feb 92 03:30:00 GMT

Two upcoming media events will highlight the abduction phenomenon, both
of them produced by Peabody Award winner Tracy Torme'. The first is the
long-awaited mini-series treatment of Budd Hopkins' best-seller
"Intruders," which will air on two consecutive nights in May. UFO
purists will no doubt decry the fact that it is a fictionalized version,
with only one scene taken straight from the book, says Torme'. But, he
says, it will be generally good exposure for the subject. It will air on
CBS, which is already producing a teaser called "The Making of
`Intruders.'"

The second and more ambitious project is "Fire in the Sky," about the
Travis Walton case. Torme' originally wrote the screenplay three years
ago, but as in the case of "Intruders," Hollywood politics has kept it
out of production - until now. Tracy has set up shop at Paramount
Studios, and shooting begins July 1st. The director is Rob Leiberman,
whose credits include TV's "Gabriel's Fire" and the Jon Voigt movie
"Table for Five."

Tracy has promised to make himself available to ParaNet in the near
future to provide more information and to, as he puts it, "quash
rumors."

Jim Speiser

--
Jim Speiser - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Chris Lightner)
Subject: Message Re-send
Date: 12 Feb 92 00:12:25 GMT

Keith, this is a message you may not have received due
 to the transmission problem reported by Vladimir Godic.

 Sysop - The Lighthouse BBS / ParaNet Delta-Alpha
 *********************************************************************

 DATE..... : 02-03-92 00:34:52
 TO....... : Keith Basterfield
 FROM..... : David Jacobs
 SUBJECT.. : Abductions

    I have recently written in my new book that to the best of my
 knowledge all abductees have been physically not in place during the
 abduction.  This statement seems rather sweeping but I feel that it is
 accurate.  The Puddy case is interesting but quite obviously the event
 that you describe is not an abduction.  Mrs Puddy might indeed be an
 abductee (the sightings that she had earlier experienced might be
 evidence of this) but the incident in the car has all the earmarks of
 either being a "channeled" episode or a flashback to a previous event, or
 evidence of mental instability.  Whereas on the surface it might appear that
 this has all the hallmarks of an apparent abduction, in fact the
 description that she gave of the entity, the entity's movements, the
 entity's motivations, and so forth, would be immediately suspicious  to
 me.  Her description of the inside of a UFO might well have been  picked
 up either from a previous abduction or from some outside  conventional
 source.  The only way that one can find out these things  with a
 reasonable degree of assurance is by doing hypnosis with somebody  who
 thoroughly understands the abduction phenomenon so that the hypnotist
 and/or researcher can tell when she veers off what is presently known
 about abductions.  I hope that my book will help in that endeavor.
     All of this goes back to the problem that Jim Speiser brought up
 about what is to be believed in conscious recollections of unusual
 events.  People will confabulate, they will remember things wrongly, they
 will unconsciously elaborate and add material, they will slip into
 "channeling," and they will exhibit evidence of mental abberations.
 Separating the wheat from the chaff is a difficult task.  But the most
 important thing to understand is that there is wheat.  Dwelling on the
 chaff is like spending all of one's time ruminating about UFO sightings
 that are identified!  It was the sightings that could not be identified
 that brought us all here.
     It is true that we only have a few cases of uninvolved bystanders
 witnessing an abduction of another person.  This situation is involved
 with the technology employed for carrying out the abduction.  Budd
 Hopkins is at present working on a sensational case that does include
 bystanders witnessing the abduction.  He will probably write a book about
 it and it will go a very long way towards putting this controversy to
 rest.  The IUR will also publish an article of mine addressing the issue.
     Budd and I have many cases in which people witness others being
 abducted and are not abducted themselves.  They are often "switched off"
 so that they can do nothing about it and their accounts are usually, but
 not always, recovered with the use of hypnosis.  We also have many cases
 in which several people are abducted at once and they can independently
 confirm their experiences without knowing that their fellow abductees
 have also remembered the event.
     Incidentally, Jenny Randles talks about the Sunderland case but makes
 no reference to her mother seeing her in bed during a supposed abduction.
 Keep up the good work!

 *********************************************************************

 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

--
Chris Lightner - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Abductions
Date: 12 Feb 92 07:02:28 GMT


    Sheldon, I think that one of the problems here is one of definition.   My
definition of an abduction may be very different than your's or Keith
Basterfield's or others who have perhaps not been as steeped in the  subject
as Budd Hopkins or I.  When I talk of abductions, I am  presupposing that the
abductee has had a physical event occur to him  which involves loss of time,
physical displacement, mental and/or  physical sequelae, and a series of
defined procedures administered to him  during the event.  When people claim
to be abducted and are not, for  example mentally unstable individuals, or
channelers, they do not fit the  definition of being an abductee. They do not
have a loss of time that  they nor anyone else can account for, they are
always physically in place  during the supposed event, they do not have the
mental and physical  sequelae that is evidence for their event, they can not
correctly  identify the procedures that nearly all abductees discuss (this,
unfortunately, will change when my book comes out).  Therefore they most
likely have not had abduction experiences regardless of what they claim   and
it is a mistake to label these people as abductees.
     When people contact me to investigate their experiences, I try to  screen
them as carefully as I can.  I ask a series a indirect questions  that helps
me to ascertain whether the unusual events in their lives are  related to my
field or not.  For those people who I think are not  abductees, I tell them
that their experiences reside in an area that I do  not have the expertise to
help them in.  Therefore the people who come to  me have a high possibility of
being actual abductees or, to be more  precise, of fitting the profile that is
my definition of abductee. Now it  is obviously a little more complicated than
that.  I routinely reject
 people who might very well be abductees but who also have mental problems
with which I will not be able to contend.  I sometimes reject people who
might very well be abductees because they are so encased in a New Age
structure that it is very difficult to break through it to find out what  is
happening.  I reject people who are going through a traumatic  situation in
their lives--divorce, death in family, and so forth--because  I think that
beginning to explore these experiences might be more than  they can deal with
at this particular time.  I recommend against  exploring these experiences if
a person is enjoying a happy, fulfilling  life with no serious problems (as
far as I can tell) who just want to find  out on a lark what is happening with
them.  I do not deal with children  directly.
     As you will soon see, my book does not address all these issues but  it
does try to address the internal generation of abduction accounts and  show
how they cannot account for the evidence as presented by actual  abductees.
The book is not a heavy-duty attempt to convince people of  the legitimacy of
the subject, rather it is an effort to define the  parameters of it and to
show that the idea of internal generation of the  accounts is greatly lacking
as an explanatory model.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 49

                          Thursday, February 27th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                               Abduction Research
                                  _Secret Life_
                                    Shamanism
                                    Shamanism

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Abduction Research
Date: 22 Feb 92 22:08:00 GMT


 > Brent, I missed your message first time around. Apologises. I'd be happy
 > to send you a copy of this article.  My address is P.O. Box W42, WEST
 > PENNANT HILLS, NSW, 2125, AUSTRALIA.
 > What is your address?  If anyone else is interested in the possible
 > shaman/UFO abduction connection let me know and I will send the article.

Please include me also, Bill.

P.O. Box 172
Wheat Ridge, CO  80034-0172

Thanks,

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: _Secret Life_
Date: 24 Feb 92 04:10:03 GMT


Hello David,

I just picked up a copy of your book, _Secret Life: Firsthand
Accounts of UFO Abductions_. Did the publisher change your original
title? I thought the sub was to be "the structure and meaning of
UFO abductions".

I have only glanced through it so far, but hope to read it in the
next few days - after which I'm sure we'll get an interesting
dialogue initiated.

BTW, you'll be please to know that the store I purchased _Secret
Life_ from sold out their first shipment in only 2 days! Looks like
you're creating quite a stir.

Take care,

Sheldon

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Shamanism
Date: 24 Feb 92 04:11:04 GMT


Mike, when you receive that "shamanism" article from Bill Chalker,
could you please post it here, or at least an abstract of it?

Also, (not related - but to save bandwidth), when you talk to Linda
Howe, I'm interested in corresponding with M.D.s other than John
Altshuler who have examined cattle mutilation wounds. Could you
please ask her for any names and contact information she might
possess?

Thanks,

Sheldon

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Shamanism
Date: 25 Feb 92 13:11:00 GMT


 > Mike, when you receive that "shamanism" article from Bill Chalker,
 > could you please post it here, or at least an abstract of it?

I will be glad to.

 > Also, (not related - but to save bandwidth), when you talk to Linda
 > Howe, I'm interested in corresponding with M.D.s other than John
 > Altshuler who have examined cattle mutilation wounds. Could you
 > please ask her for any names and contact information she might
 > possess?

Yes.  I will correspond with you via netmail on 104/605 about this.  Ok?

Mike

--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 50

                            Tuesday, March 3rd 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                               Personal Experience
                                Re: Your Wildcat!
                                    implant?
                                   Book Review

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Skiles)
Subject: Personal Experience
Date: 28 Feb 92 03:46:00 GMT

Well, I spoke with John Hicks a little bit and he said that maybe I should
talk with you. I have debated it for a while and I guess I'll just take the
plunge. My name is Bill Skiles and I think I may have had an experience. I
am not going to say that I was Abducted or anything for sure but I have been
reading your messages and I feel that you can ask me your questions and
maybe I can put this thing to rest.

I have had several sightings of UFO's since I was a kid and used to be
interested in them as a kid. I forgot all about them until about two years
ago. I had a sighting about that time. I didn't think too much about it but,
I went on about my business. Well, last summer, I went down to the
Everglades here in Florida. I had the usual day that one has on an airboat.
Just good fun. That night, I was having a hard time falling asleep because
of the humidity. As I lay there, tossing and turning, I was not asleep. My
wife was lying asleep next to me and our foster some on the bunk across the
way. Both of them were asleep. I just lay there and tried to settle down, I
has my eyes closed. Suddenly I felt or heard someone in the room. I opened
my eyes or maybe one eye I can't remember, but I saw three (3) figures, or
robes or some kind of cloth on three figures float or glide past my bed. I
can not recall any heads or faces. Yes, it was pretty dark, no lights on but
I should have been able to see there faces. Anyway what I did see was a very
bright green-blue ball of light that was on the tip of a stick or (like a
pointing stick) with a ball of light about the size of a cigarrett cherry. I
can't really describe this. Let's see. Maybe twice the size of a cigarrett
cherry. (I forgot to tell you, I had turned around to where my head was at
the foot of the bed because that's where the fan was.) Anyway, this light
floated down past me to where the head of the bed was and stopped for a
second. But then it came back and stopped DIRECTLY in front of my eyes. I
had the impression that it was looking for me. What was strange to me is
that I just lay there, immobile, not moving. I remember having the thought
that I will just lay here and maybe "they" won't know I'm awake. But, that's
crazy, cause normally I would say, who is it! I would get up, I would be
startled! Nope, I just lay there like a kid (I'm 38) like a kid thinking if
I lay real still it will be all right. Anyway, That's it. That's all I
remember. The next morning my wife was acting very strange. She was almost
in a panic to leave the place. You would have to know her. She is never in a
panic. I've seen her handle very explosive kids (We're theraputic foster
parents), I've seen here de-esculate  kids that I was afraid to get too
near. She doesn't scare easy. But that morning she made us leave a day
earlier than we had planned. She was scared of something, although she said
she wanted to check on her elderly grandmother. I just don't buy it.
The reason that I want to talk with you or send messages is because since
then I have been reading some books on this subject. (I know I probably
messed up any accurate analysis, I've filled my mind up some). But at any
rate I was reading about Betty and Barney Hill and I just thought that I
would check my body out one night a couple months ago. I found a scar that
I've never had before, It is about 5" and runs from my groin area up around
my thigh. I have never had any surgery unless you count tonsills. I am kinda
scared about this. That is to say, If it is a scar. (Could be a stretch mark
but the wife says, uh uh, no way it's a scar. I'm too scared to go find out
and anyway where could I go. (Ahem, excuse me Doctor could you tell me if
this is a scar, I don't remember any surgery, sounds kinda nuts). I was
gonna wait until I found out for sure about the scar, before I bothered you
Dr. Jacobs but It's gettin to me. I feel kinda violated and angry and like
what gives them the right! That kinda stuff. So, I don't have space to go
into the other sightings now (several) since I was a kid. My sister
remembers some too. But maybe you can clear it all up and tell me that it
was just in my head. Maybe just an active imagination after reading a couple
books. I'm not comfortable at all right now. Can you help me? Please don't
brush me off right now as I haven't been able to talk to anyone. At least
wait until you find out that I'm really basically normal. Thanks for your
time.

P.S. I am usually pretty stable, yes I do have other pressures right now,
ex-wife suing for 30,000 sort of stuff. But I've never been known to have
serious problems (mentally). Don't drink, no drugs. Not into New Age or any
religion. Don't much like church. Do believe in God. That's all I can think
of. Oh, very happily married. Sorry to be so long winded. Bill Skiles

--
Bill Skiles - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Danny Brandenburg)
Subject: Re: Your Wildcat!
Date: 28 Feb 92 08:36:43 GMT

Sue...

My Wildcat! board can be contacted at [phone].  I think you will
find several things of interest there (ie. the religious area and the
paranormal/religious file areas).



      Leave me a message when you get there and I will upgrade your
security.



Brandenburg


--
Danny Brandenburg - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: implant?
Date: 29 Feb 92 05:49:01 GMT


I am currently examining an x-ray photograph sent to me by Steve
Jones of Elverta, California, which exhibits a possible implant
residing within a living subject.

The image measures approximately 2.5mm in diameter, and contains
six barb-like projections extending roughly .75mm from the
apparently spherical surface. The barbs are equidistant from each
other, at angles of about 60 degrees. The object appears to lie at
the upper edge of the pelvis, in the vicinity of the spleen.

My question is, does anyone know of any reports of a similarly
configured implant, and if so, could you please cite complete
references to specific cases.

Any help would be greatly appreciated,

Sheldon

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Book Review
Date: 28 Feb 92 13:56:00 GMT

Dave:

The following informal review of your book appeared on the GEnie network,
courtesy of Brent Wilcox.

Jim
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

PSINET
Category 2,  Topic 2
Message 51        Fri Feb 21, 1992
B.WILCOX5 [Brent Wilcox]     at 02:25 EST

[...]

 As for Jacobs, his book is provocative to say the least...

 ==WARNING: Rampant SPECULATION Zone Ahead == (Pages and Pages...)

 He develops a generic scenario for "real" abductions, and is
 careful to distance himself and the abduction phenomena from other
 aspects of Ufology, especially "contactees" (whom he generally
 ridicules based on the more flamboyant and publicity-seeking).  I
 think abductees and contactees are two sides of the same coin, but
 Jacobs tries to present abductions as a relatively new and perhaps
 unique phenomena.  Mostly, this is an understandable attempt to
 focus attention on it and study it in its own terms, to show that
 there is a physically real phenomenon involving non-human entities.
 But there are some strongly non-physical or paraphysical elements in
 the scenario he develops, and numerous psychological aspects he
 discards or glosses over to emphasize the physicality.

 Two points come to mind -- folklore and stigmata (and physical
 effects found in some multiple personality cases, too).  He
 discounts the folkloric element of abductions, on the one hand to
 assert that they are =not= urban folklore. Fine.  But he discards
 possible traditional folkloric parallels because the individuals in
 his cases are simply not storytellers, that they aren't connected to
 the evolving body of folklore in any direct way, and don't seek
 publicity for their experiences.  But books like his and Hopkins',
 (let alone the upcoming TV version of Intruders) inevitably generate
 folklore, and are inevitably linked to the evolving process he tries
 to avoid.  And he overlooks the possibilty that traditional folklore
 may have grown from half-recalled abduction experiences, or the
 cover memories he says the "entities" routinely plant.  In fact,
 manipulating a culture's folklore may be a more powerful, more
 subtle and long-lasting, tool than manipulating newspaper headlines.

 He emphasises the extreme mental control the "entities" have over
 the abductees during the process -- they can play the human nervous
 system like a piano, perhaps even re-tune it.  My own thoughts keep
 coming back to that aspect. For one thing, how can he say for sure
 that the scenario he's uncovered isn't itself a planted memory?

 He rightly points out that "normal" cases of stigmata occur in
 people with high levels of conscious, religious belief, yet
 abductees develop physical symptoms (scars, rashes) without any
 conscious belief-system.  The deep mental manipulation involved
 makes me wonder if "belief-free" stigmata could be generated.  I've
 read of people having allergic reactions under hypnosis without an
 allergen present, and developing blisters from objects that aren't
 hot.  And persons with multiple personality disorder can have
 allergic reactions when an allergic personality is dominant.

 He may be correct that folklore, multiple personalities, and
 stigmata (and the many other non-pysical explanations he rejects)
 can't explain abductions in themselves as they are presently
 understood.  But there may be psycho-physical mechanisms involved in
 those that are also involved in abductions.

 He states outright near the beginning that the entities intentions
 are "reproductive" in nature, involving interspecies genetic
 experimentation. But the scenario he develops still strikes me as
 some sort of "Abduction Theater", and that the entities intentions
 are more likely psychological than biological or genetic. The
 physical examinations may be important for the psychological
 results of being so examined. The whole experience may be
 preparation for the "messages" and the psychological aftereffects
 (for the abductees and the culture in general).

 Though to finally answer your question, Bubba, he doesn't really
 cover the "messages" in any detail, in part because I think he's
 afraid of having his people sound like "contactees", and because
 he's more interested in the medical and biological motifs.  The
 "presentations" abductees get after the physical exams -- which
 include general warnings of ecological or nuclear disaster -- are
 treated sparingly if at all.

 Biologist Richard Dawkins (I hope I have his name right!) came up
 with the concept of the "meme" as the human cultural equivalent of
 the "gene", and proposed that memetic evolution was now more
 important to the human species than genetic evolution. "Memes" are
 basically ideas and beliefs shared by groups of humans, and
 arrangments of memes are what define differences in human cultures.
 And "memes" compete as "genes" do.

 Is the genetic motif a "theatrical" metaphor for the memetic
 manipulation that's actually going on?

 == Now Leaving SPECULATION Zone = Have A Nice Day! ==

 Phew!
----------

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                          Abduction Digest, Number 51

                            Saturday, March 7th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                               Unusual experiences
                                  Book Remarks
                                   Secret Life
                             Re: Personal Experience
                                Re: Book Remarks

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Unusual experiences
Date: 2 Mar 92 06:44:11 GMT


    Bill, thank you for your thoughtful message.  I do not think that it  would
be ethical for me to reply to you directly about your situation in  public. The
best that I can do is to talk in general terms.  Generally  people who have had
abduction events will not remember the event per se,  but will remember
circumstances surrounding the event.  Those  circumstances might be similar to
what you have described. People will describe repeated UFO sightings,
unexpected out of body experiences, the  appearances of "ghosts," seeing
inexplicable lights or balls of light in  their room, seeing figures around
their bed, and so forth.  Having had  these experiences does not necessarily
mean that a person is an abductee.  But it does mean that there are suggestive
areas that might be looked  into.  Looking into these events, however, is for
most people a very  important decision.  If one finds out that one is involved
with the  abduction phenomenon, then one's life tends to change--permanently.
 Once  a person finds out what has been the cause of these events is, the very
state of knowing can cause a certain amount of disruption in one's life.  There
is an "upside" and a "downside" to finding out.  The downside is  that people
tend to get temporarily depressed over the knowledge, they  tend to feel
emotionally isolated when they meet with ridicule after  telling friends and
family what has been happening to them, they tend to  fear that the events
will happen again, they can develop sleep  disturbance problems, and so forth.
     The upside is just as important.  When people finally decide to find out
what is happening to them and their suspicions are confirmed, confusing
elements of their lives now have an explanation.  For the first  time they are
able to understand exactly what has happened to them and to  apply that to a
great many aspects of their lives.  The cathartic effect  of remembering the
events for the first time is invaluable in relieving  psychological pressure
and anxiety that might have been built up over a long  period.  They find
themselves in the unique position of finding out  completely new information
about their lives, something that rarely  happens to most people.  Finally,
they know.  Knowing is the first step to  emotional and intellectual control
over the situation--something that  they have never had before.
     So, finding out is a serious decision.  The most important factor to
remember is that one must see a competent researcher.  Unfortunately  there are
few around.  I do not know where you live so I cannot see if  anyone is in your
area who is experienced.  I know this sounds terrible,  but I would suggest
that anyone you select should be familiar with my  new book.  It does not
matter whether they are researchers or therapists.   There are good and bad in
both groups.  What is important other than  having a thorough knowledge of the
phenomenon is that the person is  sympathetic, empathetic, and sensitive to the
feelings and needs of the  client.
     I'm sorry to be so general, Bill, but I think it is best to be armed going
in for all people.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Book Remarks
Date: 4 Mar 92 07:20:39 GMT


    Jim, thanks for the posting.  I had already seen it but I appreciate  your
effort.  The book seems to be stirring up controversy.  It has not  been
reviewed in the standard journals yet (except Kirkus reviews) and I  am hoping
that it will be favorably received.  However, the material is  pretty "far out"
so I am not sure what to expect.  Thanks again.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Secret Life
Date: 5 Mar 92 06:04:00 GMT

David,

I have just received a copy of your book.  I am getting ready to plow into it,
but I wanted to let you know that I think the cover is outstanding.  Looking
forward to reading it!

Mike

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Personal Experience
Date: 5 Mar 92 06:16:00 GMT

Hi Bill,
  I read with interest the account of your personal experience.  Would
you be kind enough to post an address as I would like to send something
to you.

  I want to assure you that I'm an trustworthy old soul and have been
on Paranet for over a year.  I almost croaked with bronchitis these
past two months; that's why you haven't seen me on the board!

Kindest regards,

Linda Bird

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Book Remarks
Date: 5 Mar 92 06:21:00 GMT

Hi David,

I can't wait to read your book and will be purchasing it from Arcturus
Books in Georgia in a day or so.  (I can only afford one book, so I
choose yours!  <:-)

Kindest regards,

Linda Bird

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                          Abduction Digest, Number 52

                           Thursday, March 12th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                      Book
                                      Book
                             Re: Personal Experience
                               Abduction Detection
                                   Secret Life
                                      Book
                             Re: Personal Experience
                                   Secret Life

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Book
Date: 7 Mar 92 07:46:12 GMT


    Hello Linda.  Thank you for wanting to read my book. I would be  interested
in your reactions to it.  In fact, I am interested in the  reactions of anyone
who might have read it.  So far I have only had one  print review, so I am
still somewhat in the dark about what people think  about it.  I have had some
very gratifying feedback from UFO researchers  and I am hoping that others
might find the book useful.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Book
Date: 8 Mar 92 07:07:00 GMT


  _Secret Life_ is perhaps the most straightforward, serious and *accessible*
book about the ufo phenomenon and abductions in particular that I've ever read.
 It appears to me that your book will go a *long* way toward establishing
*real* credibility for abduction investigation and research, rather than
simply credibility among ufologists.

                                           jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Bill Skiles)
Subject: Re: Personal Experience
Date: 8 Mar 92 21:52:00 GMT

Dear Linda,
     I'm kinda testing the waters right now, and trying to sort through some
things. I don't really want to Post my address yet, as I might open myself
up to all sorts of stuff. I am usually slow to trust and this is definitley
an area that could leave me wide open. Please, give me some time or if you
can recieve E-mail in the states, I will send my address to you, but,
exactly what is it you want to send? No offense.

Bill Skiles

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Abduction Detection
Date: 10 Mar 92 03:11:02 GMT


David... It would seem that if the abduction phenomenon is indeed
a physical event, the appearance of the alien(s) in our environment
should be detectable through the use of ultra-sonic or infra-red
motion sensing devices.

My question is, has any attempt been made to set up a "perimeter
defense" utilizing this technology, around an individual who claims
to suffer from frequent abduction episodes?

I also have a second unrelated question. I have been corresponding
with an abductee in Texas, whom I belive to be quite
straightforward, that is suffering from a most unusual post-
abduction effect. She literally "freaks out", as she puts it, when
she looks at any _hexagonal_ floor tile pattern. She is convinced
that this is somehow related to her experiences. Have you observed
any similar reactions to hexagonal tile patterns in your subjects?

Take care,

Sheldon


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Houston Mayer)
Subject: Secret Life
Date: 10 Mar 92 04:03:00 GMT

I'm half way through your book and I find it itensely interesting.  You said
the subject would be on the far out side of normal abduction acounts, It
really makes you think.  I personnally don't want to "Look Up" anymore. I
strongly urge everyone of us to read this book and keep a copy in our
library for reference.  Is chapter 5 some of the information held back by
other researchers of the abduction experiences?
Houston

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Book
Date: 11 Mar 92 05:40:00 GMT

Hi David,

I couldn't stand it anymore and sent off for your book yesterday!  Now
comes the wait.  I'm sure your book will arrive just as my new graduate
class convenes March 31.  <sigh>

I look forward to the response of others regarding your book as well.

Kind regards,

Linda

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Personal Experience
Date: 11 Mar 92 05:45:00 GMT

Hi Bill,

No problem with your wanting to test the waters.  Yes, I do receive
E-mail, and you can check the tagline at the bottom of this message for
the code.

I just wanted to send you an account of a strange sighting I had in
March '88.  I felt mildly paralyzed by the light, my husband wasn't
moving either, and it seemed to get late really fast.  My husband
poo-poos this entire topic; it's not in his power to be open-minded
about this topic.

Take care,

Linda


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Secret Life
Date: 11 Mar 92 15:20:00 GMT

I have finished reading Secret Life.  Kudos! on a well done literary work.  I
am preparing a review of it, and I thought that I would make some preliminary
comments here.  I yet have to go back over my notes to firm up my
observations, so this is very general.

First, I was not impressed with John Mack's forward in your book.  I felt it
was totally inappropriate and too philosophical for a psychiatric doctor,
especially when your writing seems to contradict his final paragraphs about
the "Western" world being too pre-occupied with scientific matters.  His idea
is to persuade the reader that we should be looking more at the "Eastern" way,
or the more mystical, to find the answers to this phenomena.

You have done well in conveying the seriousness that this aspect of the
phenomenon represents.  No doubt, abductions represent a serious trauma to the
victims, which you have aptly labeled them, and you make a case for the
continued serious research and scientific involvement that this so badly
deserves.

I was especially impressed with your matrix and the way that you carried the
reader through the various levels of the experience.  I highly recommend this
book be read by all.

Again, congratulations on a fine piece of work.

Mike

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                          Abduction Digest, Number 53

                           Wednesday, March 25th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                               Secret Life and FPP
                               Abduction Detection
                           Abductions & _Secret Life_
                               Abduction Detection
                               Abduction Detection
                            Drs & Cattle Mutilations
                               Abduction Detection

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Anson Kennedy)
Subject: Secret Life and FPP
Date: 13 Mar 92 03:39:00 GMT

I just got _Secret Life_.   While I haven't had a chance to read it in detail,
I have skimmed it.  I think people are going to be referring to it for quite
some time.

In Chapter 11, "Answers," you say WRT fantasy-prone personalities (FPPs), "Of
course, some people do spin fantasy-abduction tales.  But their idiosyncratic
stories do not match the accounts given by other abductees.  They have not
usually undergone competent hypnosis.  They act more like a combination of
channelers annd contactees seeking publicity and perhaps money and yet still
not fabricating a conscious hoax."  This is apparently geared towards
dismissing FPPs as a viable explanation for abduction reports.

In the article "UFO Abductees and Contactees: Psychopathology or Fantasy
Proneness?" (_Professional Psychology: Research and Practice_, 22(3): 215-222,
1991), Keith Basterfield (who I think posts here on occasion), et al, link a
high proportion of abductee and contactee reports to FPP.  Admittedly, they
examined only case histories (as I understand it) and not the subjects
themselves, but doesn't this tend to contradict the statements you made in
_Secret Life_?

DISCLAIMER:  I have no training in psychology.  I'm just asking a question
about what appears to *this* layman as some mutually-exclusive conclusions.

                                     --- Anson

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Abduction Detection
Date: 12 Mar 92 06:21:00 GMT


 > My question is, has any attempt been made to set up a "perimeter
 > defense" utilizing this technology, around an individual who claims
 > to suffer from frequent abduction episodes?

  Also, many modern cameras have a "trap focus" mode, in which you focus on the
desired distance, and if something moves to that spot and is detected as being
in focus, the camera fires. Note that this function is completely passive.
Might be worth a try too.

                                           jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Abductions & _Secret Life_
Date: 14 Mar 92 03:21:01 GMT


David,

I have noticed in appendix B on page 327-328 of your book _Secret
Life_, you list 39 abductees whose statements appear in your book.
I have also observed that of the 39 individuals listed, 22 are
female and 17 are male, or a ratio of female to male of
approximately 1.3:1. I realize this is a small cross section to
work with, but do you feel this apparent sexual correlation will
continue to hold true? If so, have you any clues as to why 56.4% of
your sample set is female and 43.6% is male?

I am also interested in the geographical origins of the individuals
on this list. Were these predominantly east coast cases, or was it
a more geographically heterogeneous mix?

Besides their perceptible predilection for female subjects, the
aliens also seem to be partial to rather "zoftig" women. Have you
noticed a higher than anticipated number of moderately to grossly
over-weight women in your sample set? If so, were they over-weight
prior to their experiences, or were their body mass expansions
consequent to the abduction event? One abductee I have worked with
feels that her "overweightness" is a kind of safety mechanism to
protect her from future abductions. Conversely, I know you
mentioned in your book that the aliens became quite concerned for
an abductee that was exhibiting symptoms anorexia. They told her
she should eat more.

BTW, Dr. Michele Lecher, the clinical psychologist from Oregon I
mentioned to you a few weeks back, is currently finishing your
book, and I hope to schedule a conference call at a time mutually
convenient for all in the near future.

Regards,

Sheldon

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Abduction Detection
Date: 15 Mar 92 04:57:01 GMT



In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <11-March-92 23:21>
John Hicks wrote:

JH> Also, many modern cameras have a "trap focus" mode, in which
JH> you focus on the desired distance, and if something moves to
JH> that spot and is detected as being in focus, the camera fires.
JH> Note that this function is completely passive. Might be worth
JH> a try too.

I agree John. Perhaps the more low-tech the detection device is,
the better the chances for success in catching an alien in the act.
As David Jacobs related in _Secret Life_, the aliens seemed quite
flustered by an abductee's plastic dental retainer plate, yet are
capable of manipulating our minds almost effortlessly.

Trap focus sounds intriguing, but I would imagine the "trap focus"
mode found in photographic equipment utilizes infra-red to detect
an object that has moved into focus, so this too is not entirely
passive.

David mentioned that video-taping a prospective abductee's bedroom
proved useful in forestalling, but not eliminating the abduction
experience. Eventually, the aliens simply ordered the victim to get
out of bed and turn off the camera, allowing the abduction to
proceed on schedule - and undetected.

Perhaps we need something *really* low-tech... like a large wooden
crate, propped up by a dowel rod attached to the abductee's ankle
with a piece of monofilament fishing line... with a strawberry ice
cream cone as bait. The only problem is how to keep the ice cream
from melting. <g>

Take care,

Sheldon

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Abduction Detection
Date: 16 Mar 92 05:44:00 GMT


 > Trap focus sounds intriguing, but I would imagine the "trap focus"
 > mode found in photographic equipment utilizes infra-red to detect
 > an object that has moved into focus, so this too is not entirely
 > passive.

  No, in fact they are entirely passive. The AF system found in SLR cameras
"looks" for highest image contrast; it's presumed that an in-focus image shows
higher contrast than an out-of-focus image, and it works. These things can
focus on a race car coming straight at you In the trap-focus mode, the camera
shoots when image contrast is sufficiently high to be taken for an in-focus
image. You're partly right; most of the small AF point'n'shoot cameras use an
IR rangefinder.


 >  Eventually, the aliens simply ordered the victim to get
 > out of bed and turn off the camera, allowing the abduction to
 > proceed on schedule - and undetected.

  Yes, that's interesting. Maybe a camera could be somehow installed in a
sealed box in some way that the victim couldn't move the box. But then, I
believe David Jacobs mentioned that some victims are made to go into another
room.....

 > Perhaps we need something *really* low-tech... like a large wooden
 > crate, propped up by a dowel rod attached to the abductee's ankle

  Sounds like the best idea yet! ;-)

 >  The only problem is how to keep the ice cream from melting. <g>

  We could concentrate on Canadian and Alaskan abductees......  ;-)

                                           jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Drs & Cattle Mutilations
Date: 16 Mar 92 13:47:00 GMT


>Also, (not related - but to save bandwidth), when you talk to Linda
>Howe, I'm interested in corresponding with M.D.s other than John
>Altshuler who have examined cattle mutilation wounds. Could you
>please ask her for any names and contact information she might possess?

Hello Sheldon,
        I saw your message (part of which is above) and wondered if
you would be interested in talking to the specialist I interviewed
for OMNI when I wrote about Linda Howe and Dr. John Altschuler's
conclusions (re her then-new book, _An Alien Harvest_.)  I talked to
several veterinary specialists for that article, and all said the #1
expert in the field for this type of forensic pathology would be Dr.
John King at Cornell.  Linda was kind enough to send Dr. King a copy
of her book (which, as you may know, reproduces the slides of animal
tissue and offers close-up, clear  photos of the "cookie cutter"
wounds), and, when that intrigued him to the point he asked to see
the actual slides himself, she and Dr. Altshuler also shared that
material with him.  Dr. King is a delightfully candid person who
speaks clearly and understandably, for layman or professional.  If
you would like to have a contact number for him, let me know.
        By the way, are you also on Compuserve?
                                        ==Peggy==
--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Abduction Detection
Date: 18 Mar 92 09:18:21 GMT

In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <15 Mar 92 22:44> John Hicks wrote:

 >>  The only problem is how to keep the ice cream from melting. <g>
 JH>  We could concentrate on Canadian and Alaskan abductees......  ;-)

Alright you guys, (hyuck, hyuck, hyuck...).  What's the big deal about a
photograph?  Nobody, _nobody_, would believe it anyway.  We already have a
dozen or so fully studied photos that have led to exactly nowhere...

I just started Jacob's book so this might sound completely stupid but why
hasn't anybody used a personal telemetry device that _cannot be detached_???

These devices are cheap and common, already in use by numerous local and state
jurisdictions to monitor work-release prisoners and parolees, and I don't
care _what_ orders are given to the potential abductee these devices
are _not_ coming off without a serious bit of work...???  I can't be the first
person to come up with this idea...

Regarding abductees being ordered by their abductors to turn off the camera, I
assume that _this_ (the abductee waking/rising and then turning off the camera)
is also on videotape?  Has anyone seen this?

Thanks, take care.
John.

--
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 54

                            Tuesday, March 31st 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                               Abduction Detection
                             "Empty-Womb" Syndromes
                                 I'm back again
                                     Thanks
                           Fantasy Prone Personalities
                                      Book
                               Abduction detection
                                   Larry King
                               Abduction Detection
                          Secret Life - Questions, 1/3
                          Secret Life - Questions, 2/3
                          Secret Life - Questions, 3/3
                               Abduction detection

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Abduction Detection
Date: 25 Mar 92 04:32:00 GMT


 JP> I just started Jacob's book so this might sound completely
 JP> stupid but why hasn't anybody used a personal telemetry
 JP> device that _cannot be detached_???

  Good idea. Two problems....finding an abductee who's willing to take the
risk, and perhaps a much more difficult problem, finding the money to pay
for the gear.

 JP> waking/rising and then turning off the camera) is also on
 JP> videotape?  Has anyone seen this?

  *Good question*.

                                        jbh

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Doug Morrow)
Subject: "Empty-Womb" Syndromes
Date: 27 Mar 92 23:13:00 GMT

David,

You mention in your book that you have at least one case where a
doctor confirmed a missing fetus.  Without mentioning the names or
any of the specifics, has it been documented, or is it just the
abductees word that the doctor confirmed it?

It would seem very important to get some legitimate confirmation of
something like this, given the (apparently) vast number of times
that you say it is happening.  If this phenomena could be reliably
documented four or five times, it would go a long way toward
dispelling my (and possibly others) doubts about the real external
"reality" of it.  I am not suggesting that your subjects are lying,
but I do believe that there is a very high likelyhood that many, if
not most of these reports are based on subjective experiences of the
abductee, but "written and directed" (if you will) by the
instigators of the phenomena.

It is not that I don't think that there is nothing to the experience
or the overall  phenomena, but that what is being reported is
intended to be misleading and decieving.  If there were some
documented cases of missing fetus', that would lend strong
support to the external reality of the abductions.
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: I'm back again
Date: 30 Mar 92 04:43:55 GMT


    Thanks to all for forebearing with me until the book tour and  publicity is
over.  I have come back for a week or so although the  activity still
continues.  Right now I am rescheduled for the Larry King  show on April 10th.
 They are trying to get me on it March 30th, but I do  not believe that I will
be able to do it.  I will try to get to all my  messages in the meantime.  I
must say that I have been swamped with phone  calls and mail.  I am just now
trying to dig my way out from under it  all.  Thanks for waiting!
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Thanks
Date: 30 Mar 92 04:48:46 GMT


    Michael, thanks for your kind words about my book.  I especially appreciate
the thoughts about my matrix.  Although it looks simple, there  is a lot of
work in it.

     John Mack's foreword is indicative of how people can investigate and think
about this subject in very different ways.  I hope that once the  subject
becomes more regularized and systematized, the thought about the subject will
also become more systematic and the interpretation will be  the subject of
debate.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Fantasy Prone Personalities
Date: 30 Mar 92 05:01:18 GMT


    Thank you for your note, Anson. I am afraid that I do not place much stock
in the fantasy prone personality hypothesis. I find no evidence that it plays a
significant role in the generation of abduction reports. All the fuss about it
is based on the vague notion that in some way abduction reports are generated
by people who have a "condition" that  impels them to fantasize so strongly
about abductions that it appears  real to them.  Once again, there is simply no
evidence for the great body of abduction reports.  The Bartholomew--Basterfield
article that you  allude to does not make a very strong case for the
fantasy-prone  personality to figure into abduction reports.
  The problem was that the  way that abductions were defined was so vague and
"contactee"--oriented  that it became meaningless.  If you wish I could go into
much more detail  about the FPP hypothesis and the article, but suffice it to
say that the  FPP hypothesis is, as far as I am concerned, a non-starter.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Book
Date: 30 Mar 92 05:09:01 GMT


    Thanks for your message Sheldon.  I am not really sure why there are  more
women than men in my study.  This might be an artifact of the small population,
it might be because women tend to come forward more, it might  be because there
are more women abductees than men.  We really do not  know.

     Geography and location appear to be almost meaningless in the abduction
phenomenon.  I work with people within a hundred mile radius of Philadelphia,
but that is for convenience so that they can see me on a regular basis if they
want.  The abductions in my population occurred  all over the United States.
 If people float through a closed window and  nobody sees this, then location
is not important.  Put away your maps and  push-pins.

     There does not seem to be any correlation between being overweight and
being abducted.  I think that about 40% of the population is overweight in the
United States, and therefore that probably shows up in the abductee population
as well.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Abduction detection
Date: 30 Mar 92 05:15:33 GMT


    I welcome any and all comments about abduction detection. Of course we have
thought quite a bit about this and we have tried to put some  things into
effect but so far without success.  The most important thing  is that it must
be passive, difficult to tamper with, and simple. The video camera going all
night long is a good example of this. Yes, I do have a video of a woman getting
up around 5:30 a.m., walking over to the VCR and turning it off for apparently
no reason.  When I get a chance I will relate some of the suggestions that have
come my way.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Subject: Larry King
Date: 30 Mar 92 07:49:00 GMT

Last weekend, my brother called me to say he had heard you were going to be on
 the Larry King show on CNN that Tuesday.  I tuned in Tuesday and Larry said
 that there would be a "big UFO debate" on Wednesday.  Wednesday came and there
 was no UFO debate, and Larry didn't say anything about a postponement or even
indicate in any way that anything was *supposed* to happen.  Could you fill me
 in?

(P.S.:  My brother was assuming that the guest would be David Jacobs.  If it
 was to be someone else, does anyone know what happened anyway?)

--
Jim Shaffer - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Abduction Detection
Date: 28 Mar 92 19:17:59 GMT

In a message to John Powell <24 Mar 92 21:32> John Hicks wrote:

 > JP> I just started Jacob's book so this might sound completely
 > JP> stupid but why hasn't anybody used a personal telemetry
 > JP> device that _cannot be detached_???
 JH>  Good idea. Two problems....finding an abductee who's willing to
 JH> take the risk, and perhaps a much more difficult problem, finding
 JH> the money to pay for the gear.

Based on some of the transcripts in Secret Life I rather suspect that at least
some of Jacob's clients are less than excited about their abductions and some
have used the camera technique and a few other techniques...  Based on the
alien's responses to these techniques it doesn't _seem_ to be a risk to attempt
these type of things...  I'm guessing that this gear (the telemetry device,
ankle bracelet) could be loaned out.  Maybe not from a State/Fed agency, but
maybe from the manufacturer.  The gear to monitor the telemetry device could
probably be found in most any University electronics or engineering lab...

>From a double-blind viewpoint the Abductee would be convinced that they are
unable to remove/deactivate the device (which would probably be true anyway
aside from any convincing), _and_ they'd be unable to turn off the monitoring
machine since it wouldn't necessarily even have to be in the same location...

If no Abductions occur then I guess nothing would really be proven beyond what
is already proven/suspected.  However, if the monitor registers the telemetry
device at 60,000 ft., well... <grin>

Two other comments on a personal telemetry device:  I think it would be supreme
irony and humor for us to employ one...  Even the aliens might appreciate that
one...  And, at least for me, it would be more important than a photograph any
day...

 > JP> waking/rising and then turning off the camera) is also on
 > JP> videotape?  Has anyone seen this?
 JH>  *Good question*.

I just finished the book.  Damn fine work!  Regardless of what it is that is
causing/doing the Abductions, Jacobs deserves an award for establishing a
rather solid structure and methodology, and the medical/psychiatric community
should be embarassed and ashamed that a professor of history had to go out to
the fringes to codify something that _they_ should have already been focused
on and addressing...

Thanks, take care.
John.

--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Secret Life - Questions, 1/3
Date: 28 Mar 92 20:22:37 GMT

I just finished your book.  Thank you very much for what I thought was an
excellent work!  (And thanks for being available for questions and discussion.)

I don't want to be totally rude, but I have about 3 pages of questions...  (The
numbers are the pages in Secret Life that generally contain the material
referenced by the question.)

(25) Have you personally seen any markings?  Regarding the "scoop" mark that
Fowler received, any idea on why it healed as a scoop mark and did not 'fill
in?'

(28) You mention that each Abductee contributed a portion of the overall event
scenario, could you provide an aggregate percentage estimate of how true to
the scenario all of your client's experiences have been?

(45) "...slipped into channelling..."  Has this been independently documented?
Have you ever witnessed this?

(71) Why do you think children are not switched off?  Is it possible that they
are switched off yet, since they're children, have absolutely no way of
perceiving that they have been switched off?

(82) Can you be more specific regarding impaired vision?  Do you think it might
be an effect of partial paralysis (can't move eye muscles for focusing or eye
movement)?  Would the consciousness/perception impairment result in 'images'
simply not being 'registered' at the time?

(86) Has an Abduction ever been aborted?

(93) Do you have any ideas why the special attention to the coccyx?
Descriptions of aliens seem to suggest that they don't have one (or knees or
elbows either)...

(?) Is it possible that the Staring is a trick or diversion and that a handheld
device is placed on or near the head?

(136) Maybe the "black box" is a 'creativity test', to measure the different
things Abductees think it might be?

(151) The track-ball pointing device witnessed in 1965 was interesting.  Aside
from the beam in/out, what other specific examples of alien technology, that
is fully beyond our own R&D, have been witnessed/described?

Thanks, take care.
John.

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Secret Life - Questions, 2/3
Date: 28 Mar 92 22:57:32 GMT

(153) "...the variety of aliens..."  Regarding the Visualization Procedures,
this is a rather provocative statement.  In your work have you, or anyone you
are aware of, also kept a list of the various types of aliens?  Is it worth
the trouble to do so?

(?) Regarding the Child Presentation (Nursery/Incubatorium), and really for the
sake of elaboration, why have you selected this as a standalone event and not
as a standard Envisioning and/or Visualization event?

(159) You pretty clearly suggest here, and elsewhere in the text, that some
Abductions are a monthly (if not _more_ frequent) occurance.  Have you noticed
any other timeline-like patterns?

(?) Has there ever been independent corroboration of a multiple Abduction?
(For example: Person A gets abducted on a specific date and works with
Investigator 1, Person B gets abducted on the same date and works with
Investigator 2, Persons A & B each describe other humans present, Investigators
1 & 2 eventually get together and compare notes and then try to match up the
people...)

(?) Regarding Multiple Abductions (and the Media Display, 194), is it
reasonable to assume that the people are from generally the same geographic
location?  Is there enough data to lead to any tentative assumptions in this
area?

(?) Have you, or anyone you are aware of, attempted to correlate over time the
geography of Abduction events?

(197) You mention some Abductees have shown "...isolated factual knowledge
about scientific topics...", can you give some examples?  Is this information
common knowledge but simply unknown to the Abductee or is it R&D/Advanced
information?

(213) Regarding 'switching off' and the in-car events, don't the passengers
notice the time lapse from the car radio?  Regarding switching off in general,
what about smokers, has anyone burned themselves or others or something nearby?
While switched off don't people get cramped or need to go to the bathroom?  (I
know these sound kind of stupid but the switching off seems to be fraught with
mundane complications...)

Thanks, take care.
John.

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Secret Life - Questions, 3/3
Date: 28 Mar 92 23:22:55 GMT

(?) Do you know the racial distribution of American Abductees?

(?) How do the aliens take notes?  Have they ever been seen evaluating
information, as oppossed to collecting information/data?

(240) Can you elaborate on the detected implants?  What were/are the specific
surgery-related risks of upper nasal passage implant removal/recovery?

(?) Frequently in the narrative text the Abductee relates communication from
the aliens using contractions and other colloquilized grammar, and I've
assummed that this is simply a convenience of the Abductee, but has this been
specifically explored?  Have you learned anything about their (alien's) command
of our languages?  (Do southerners receive communication with a southern
accent?  Do non-English speaking Abductees receive communication in their
native language?)

(291) Could you elaborate on the significant differences, if they exist,
between remembered and regressed Abduction scenarios?  Any ideas on why one
person would have better unaided recall than any other?

(302) You mention Abduction(s) that have been independently witnessed, where
can I find out more about them?

(333) You mention one individual who was at that time mentally disturbed, how
did the aliens react to a mentally disturbed person?  (They seemed quite
perplexed when someone put dots on their chest so I'd guess they'd be nearly
gridlocked given a mentally disturbed person...)

Last question!

I thought Secret Life was an excellent book!  I think the work you're doing
with Abductees and the mental health community is equally excellent and
important!  However, what role is the AMA and/or APA playing in this matter?
What can private concerned individuals do to help?

Thanks, take care.
John.

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Abduction detection
Date: 31 Mar 92 06:08:00 GMT


 >     I welcome any and all comments about abduction detection.  Of course
 >  we have thought quite a bit about this and we have tried to put some
 > things into effect but so far without success.  The most important thing
 >  is that it must be passive, difficult to tamper with, and simple.

  How about using a home-security-style motion detector to turn *on* a
battery-powered camcorder?
  In standby mode, a camcorder might sit still for hours without consuming lots
of battery power. The motion detector could be run off a separate battery, and
would simply turn on the camcorder (in record mode) when motion (with heat) is
detected.
  This approach would lend itself to a "black box" setup that wouldn't be
plugged into AC and would be relatively tamper-resistant.
  A still-photo approach would be to use an auto-everything camera that's
linked to the motion detector.
  Most cameras you might use turn themselves "off" after a short while; but
they're not really off, they're resting. They'll shoot instantly, but in the
auto-off mode the camera batteries will last about as long as if you'd
actually turned the camera off.
  You could use an auto-everything type of camera, but I think better yet, use
a mechanical manual camera with everything preset. Just use the motion detector
to close a relay that'd trigger the camera's motor drive. An Olympus OM-1
w/winder (relatively inexpensive) or Nikon FM w/winder are a couple of
examples of this type of camera. With a 24mm wideangle lens, you wouldn't need
AF.
  Most motion detectors will "see" through glass or plexiglass (or can be
adjusted to), so in that setup, the whole thing could be encased in a
tamper-resistant box and batteries for the camera motor and the motion
detector would last a *long* time.
  Also, a mechanical camera would be less subject to EMI.
  I see a few problems.....
  The subject moving the box into another room or covering it up, the subject
triggering off all the film by just moving around, and the subject going into
another room to be abducted.
  If the box could be bolted into a ceiling corner, it'd be hard to move or
cover up. A 250-exposure film magazine would make the film supply last longer
(but the film would be expensive). Nothing you could do about other rooms other
than put a rig in each room.
  Alternative triggers would be IR beams (Dale Beam), sound triggers (Dale and
Wein) and slave triggers that are commonly used to fire remote flashes. Slaves
trigger on any fast increase in ambient light.
  The aforementioned devices aren't passive, except for the sound trigger and
the flash slave trigger, but I wouldn't hold out lots of hope for those two
anyway.
  For another approach, some cameras have a "trap-focus" mode; you pre-focus
the camera on a spot, or distance, and when something moves to that spot, into
focus, the camera shoots. This is entirely passive. Two examples are the
Yashica 230AF (relatively inexpensive) and the Nikon N8008s w/MB-21 back
(expensive). By "relatively inexpensive" I mean less than $500 or so full-up.
  These systems are commonly used for unattended wildlife photography. You
preset the camera on a trail, and when the animal appears, the camera
photographs it. These cameras could be completely sealed into a box.
  *But* these cameras would be susceptible to EMI, even though they're
shielded to some extent.
  Probably the only tamper-proof systems would be the "bank surveillance" type
of systems, but I think that's getting into really big money.
  Hope this give you some ideas, at least....

                                           jbh

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                          Abduction Digest, Number 55

                             Monday, April 6th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                             Re: Abduction Detection
                                   abductions
                                      Book
                             Re: Abduction detection
                             Re: Abduction detection
                               Abduction Detection
                               Abduction Detection
                               Abduction Detection
                          Rocky Mountain UFO Conference
                              Dave Jacobs New Book
                                    Research
                                   Overweight?
                               abduction research
                             _Secret Life_ reviewed
                                  Re: Research
                                 Re: Overweight?
                                 Re: Overweight?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Tom Davis)
Subject: Re: Abduction Detection
Date: 30 Mar 92 06:44:00 GMT


  The problem with such a device is that short of integrating it into a
vital organ wherein removal would be fatal to the host, how would you
make it non-detachable?  Indeed, how would you integrate it without
killing the host?  I suspect that a race capable of inter stellar
travel, the abduction of humans, and all the rest we sometimes
attribute to the yet-unproven invaders, would have no difficulty in
detecting a removing anything we could implant ourselves.

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: abductions
Date: 2 Apr 92 03:00:02 GMT


Hello Keith,

I think there is another significant dilemma with hypnotic
regression that has not been addressed since David Jacobs returned
as moderator of this echo. Specifically, if an individual comes to
a hypnotherapist for the purpose of learning more about their
"abduction", has not the seed of potential fantasy already been
sown in their minds? They are not seeking to find out *if* they
were actually abducted - of that they are already convinced. They
are seeking details of the event(s).

A related question that comes to mind, is how many abductees have
pursued therapy simply because they feel out of sorts, or that
something "unconventional" may have occurred to them. There is no
musing that anything as bizarre as an abduction might have
occurred. The Hill case is of course a classic example of this
genre. Neither Dr. Simon, nor the Hill's had any inkling of what
was going to be revealed. Nowadays, both the patient *and*
therapist *anticipate* an abduction to be disclosed. This element
of expectation would seem to decisively prejudice the outcome,
don't you think?

I still am having a great deal of difficulty with David Jacobs
conviction that virtually none of the abductees he has written
about in his book _Secret Life_ are perchance suffering from some
form of psychological irregularity. Jacobs recently stated on an
American television show that he conducts a 1 1/2 hour long
preliminary interview with his subjects prior to accepting them.
If anything psychologically anomalous is apparent, he refers them
to proper counseling. I am certainly not qualified in this area,
but I do not comprehend how an individual's psyche can be
accurately assessed in an hour and one half. It could take *years*
to unsheathe well camouflaged aberrant behavior.

Changing the subject, will you be attending the conference that
David Pritchard is organizing this June at MIT? It sounds most
intriguing. I would love to attend, but unfortunately admission is
by invitation only, and I am not on the list. Hopefully, the
conference proceedings will be available to us. Jenny Randles has
written that she will be at MIT, and will also speak at a
conference at the University of Nebraska in May. She will be
stopping in Chicago for a day or two at which time we shall try to
meet.

I enjoyed reading your article, _Implants_ in the recent issue of
_IUR_. Very well done... but how do you ever find the time for all
that writing? You must be one of those lucky individuals that can
get by on 4 hrs of sleep. Anyway, keep up the superb work.

Take care,

Sheldon

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Book
Date: 2 Apr 92 17:11:00 GMT

Dave:

You say the 40% overweight figure "probably" shows up in the abductee
population as well; are you aware of whether or not a study has been done on
this? Ray Maurer and I were discussing this aspect just last night. We spoke
with the girl he called you about, and she is slightly overweight as well.
This makes three of the four people I've dealt with (the fourth is almost
painfully skinny). An admittedly very small sample, but it got me wondering.

Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Abduction detection
Date: 2 Apr 92 17:13:00 GMT

Dave (and all):

Anybody have any suggestions as to how to hook up a motion detector to
trigger a VCR? We have access to motion detectors, all we need now is a
schematic.

Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Abduction detection
Date: 2 Apr 92 17:21:00 GMT

John:

Ray Maurer and I have been discussing implementing this very concept. If we
gave you some info on our motion detector and our camcorder or camera-VCR
setup, do you think you could shoot us a schematic of how it should be
hooked together?

Jim

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Abduction Detection
Date: 1 Apr 92 20:48:00 GMT


 JP> if the monitor registers the telemetry device at 60,000
 JP> ft., well... <grin>

  Couldn't argue with that very much.

 JP>   And, at least
 JP> for me, it would be more important than a photograph any
 JP> day...

  Yes.....somewhat more difficult to fake.

 JP>  and the medical/psychiatric community
 JP> should be embarassed and ashamed that a professor of
 JP> history had to go out to the fringes to codify something
 JP> that _they_ should have already been focused on and
 JP> addressing...

  The medical community, in general, suffers from their group mindset even
when they disagree; plus, I think the "gatekeepers" keep the fringe stuff
out of professional journals.
  A while back I talked with a very prominent local psychiatrist about the
abduction phenomenon; he said he'd heard of it and wondered what was going
on, but that he'd *never* seen any substantial information on the phenomenon
upon which to begin serious consideration. And this guy is practically the
"dean" of psychiatry in this area.
  He's open-minded, but oddball stories from space alien magazines are
pretty useless to him.
  I think Dr. Jacobs used his abilities as a historian to great benefit in
his abduction investigations; it's a much different viewpoint than the usual
doctor-patient relationship.

                                                jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Abduction Detection
Date: 2 Apr 92 18:39:00 GMT


 >   The problem with such a device is that short of integrating it into a
 > vital organ wherein removal would be fatal to the host, how would you
 > make it non-detachable?

  Yes, that's the difficult part.

 >  would have no difficulty in detecting a removing anything we could implant
 >  ourselves.

 That's a key right there. If an abductee has a telemetry bracelet or whatever,
which the person couldn't feasibly remove, if it vanishes, to some extent that
would be "proof."

                                           jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Abduction Detection
Date: 4 Apr 92 02:03:00 GMT


 >  JP>  and the medical/psychiatric community
 >  JP> should be embarassed and ashamed that a professor of
 >  JP> history had to go out to the fringes to codify something
 >  JP> that _they_ should have already been focused on and
 >  JP> addressing...
 >
 >   The medical community, in general, suffers from their group mindset
 > even when they disagree; plus, I think the "gatekeepers" keep the fringe
 > stuff out of professional journals.
 >   A while back I talked with a very prominent local psychiatrist about
 > the abduction phenomenon; he said he'd heard of it and wondered what was
 > going on, but that he'd *never* seen any substantial information on the
 > phenomenon upon which to begin serious consideration. And this guy is
 > practically the "dean" of psychiatry in this area.
 >   He's open-minded, but oddball stories from space alien magazines are
 > pretty useless to him.
 >   I think Dr. Jacobs used his abilities as a historian to great benefit
 > in his abduction investigations; it's a much different viewpoint than
 > the usual doctor-patient relationship.

We recently had a psychiatrist join our ranks in MICAP.  We met with him for
lunch and asked him various questions about the abduction phenomenon.  We were
surprised with the answers.  This person has been practicing a number of
years.  He deals with the general community as well as two mental hospitals in
the Denver area.  He stated that in all of his years of working with patients,
he has never heard one claim of abduction.

Sheldon brings up a very good point regarding the pre-disposition of the
alleged abductee seeking out a hypnotherapist or doctor in psychology for the
exploration of a possible abduction experience.  If the alleged abductee has
already suspected an abduction, it requires further study to determine alleged
abduction experiences among a random sampling of the general population to
determine the numbers reporting such an event.  According to recent findings
released by Hopkins, after conducting a Roper poll, it is believed that as
many as 17% of the population could be an abductee.  This translates into an
incredible number of potential abductees among the general population.  I find
it quite unusual that a psychiatrist would not have at least one person in his
client base telling him this story.  Although one psychiatrist's testimony
does not invalidate Hopkins' findings, it is worthy of study to make some
determination based upon random sampling.

Mike

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: mrc-crc.ac.uk!sgamble
Subject: Rocky Mountain UFO Conference
Date: 4 Apr 92 20:11:52 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)


I attended this last year and was suprised to find that a large
proportion of the attendees were contactees/abductees.

I hope to attend again this year. Are any of the other Abductions
contributors planning to go? It is in Laramie last week of June.

Steve.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: mrc-crc.ac.uk!sgamble
Subject: Dave Jacobs New Book
Date: 4 Apr 92 20:12:06 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)


Hi David,

Your book seems to have been very well received in the US.

Are there any plans to release it in the UK? If so, do you
have any details like dates, publisher?

Regards
Steve Gamble




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Research
Date: 3 Apr 92 02:33:00 GMT

My apologies for not posting for a while-I am still waiting for my
copy of David Jacob's book so cannot comment on this yet. Also, I have
been busy on other aspects of UFOlogy.

--
Keith Basterfield - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Overweight?
Date: 5 Apr 92 04:04:01 GMT




In a message to David Jacobs <02-March-92 10:11>
Jim Speiser wrote:

JS> You say the 40% overweight figure "probably" shows up in the
JS> abductee population as well; are you aware of whether or not a
JS> study has been done on this?

I am not aware of any substantiating inquiries into this aspect,
but from my limited experience, it certainly seems greater than
40%. I'll carry this thread a step further to state that it also
appears as though a disproportionate number of overweight women
"see" UFO's. I base this observation on the many photographs and
videotapes I have examined. This overweight state appears to hold
true for female abductees only. What do you think?

JS> This makes three of the four people I've dealt with (the fourth
JS> is almost painfully skinny). An admittedly very small sample,
JS> but it got me wondering.

Me too, Jim...

 -- Sheldon

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: abduction research
Date: 5 Apr 92 04:06:02 GMT



In a message to John Hicks <03-March-92 19:03>
Michael Corbin wrote:

MC> I find it quite unusual that a psychiatrist would not have at
MC> least one person in his client base telling him this
MC> (abduction) story. Although one psychiatrist's testimony does
MC> not invalidate Hopkins' findings, it is worthy of study to make
MC> some determination based upon random sampling.

Actually Mike, this evidence does seem to be the rule rather than
the exception. I was just speaking with Mark Rodeghier about this
the other night, and he agreed that we just don't see abduction
experiences being exposed spontaneously during the course of
psychotherapy. It is virtually unheard of, except for a mere
handful of cases. If this circumstance is in fact true, the
implications are obvious.

 -- Sheldon

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: _Secret Life_ reviewed
Date: 6 Apr 92 04:35:02 GMT


Hello David,

The following review of your book _Secret Life_, was published in
The Chicago Tribune newspaper, 30-March-92, and was written by Lynn
Van Matre, staff writer. I thought it might interest you.
.................................................................

           ALIENS FROM SPACE 'ARE NOT HERE TO HELP US'

Abducted by aliens! It's the stuff of tabloid headlines and comedy
routines, conjuring up images of science-fiction films and big-eyed
beings. But for the more than 60 people whose experiences figure in
David Jacobs' engrossing _Secret Life_, it's no joke. It's
nightmarish reality.

Jacobs, a history professor at Pennsylvania's Temple University and
a UFO researcher for the last 25 years, acknowledges that the
concept is "inherently unbelievable". Still, he contends, the
similarities of scores of firsthand accounts, most obtained by
Jacobs from subjects under hypnosis, men, women and children
describe being taken forcibly from their homes and cars (generally
at night), transported aboard spacecraft and subjected to a variety
of medical examinations. Descriptions of the abductors are often
strikingly similar; so are the procedures, which generally involve
reproductive organs and leave physical traces such as scars. Some
abductees later discover small metallic balls in their nasal or
sinus cavities.

Are these people victims of mass hysteria? Attention-craving
charlatans out to make a buck? Obviously, the possibility of mental
illness or fraud is present in all reported UFO encounters. But
these abductees report no problems with mental instability; many
holding demanding jobs in law, medicine, education, and the media.
(Names have been changed in the interests of privacy, but correct
ages and occupations are given). What's more, according to Jacobs,
who addresses the possibilities of fraud and psychological problems
at length, most of these abductees are not familiar with UFO
literature. They make no attempt to capitalize on their experience
in terms of money or fame; instead, they devoutly wish it had never
happened.

Why are these abductions happening? Jacobs speculates that aliens
may need humans to help them produce other beings via the
harvesting of eggs and sperm. While the aliens are not necessarily
malevolent, "They are not here to help us," Jacobs concludes.
.................................................................

Van Marte also critiqued Ellen Crystall's new book _Silent
Invasion: The Shocking Discoveries of a UFO researcher_, far less
favorably than your work I might add.

Take care,   -- Sheldon
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Research
Date: 6 Apr 92 05:44:00 GMT

Hi Keith,

Your article came,and I thank you very much.  I have the Mufon material
ready that I think you want, and will send it to you this week.

Thanks again,

Linda



--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Overweight?
Date: 6 Apr 92 05:48:00 GMT


 Hi Sheldon,

It is interesting that you bring up the overweight factor in regards to
female abductees.  I was able to meet Debbie Tomey of Budd Hopkins'
book INTRUDERS and she is on the plump side.

Regards,

Linda


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Overweight?
Date: 6 Apr 92 06:13:00 GMT

My only experiences thus far have been with female abductees (and one male
whom we agreed is probably not one). So I'm not in a position to judge at
this point.

Jim

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                          Abduction Digest, Number 56

                            Thursday, April 9th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                   Overweight?
                                  Support Group
                             Re: Abduction detection
                                UFO Mag. Vol.7 #3
                                Dr. David Jacobs
                               Abduction Detection
                               abduction research
                             _secret Life_ Reviewed
                                Re: Support Group

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Overweight?
Date: 7 Apr 92 05:20:01 GMT


In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <05-April-92 22:48>
Linda Bird wrote:

LB> It is interesting that you bring up the overweight factor in
LB> regards to female abductees.  I was able to meet Debbie Tomey
LB> of Budd Hopkins' book INTRUDERS and she is on the plump side.

I too met "Kathie Davis"/Debra Tomey at the Chicago MUFON symposium
last June. Interesting woman... and an intriguing case. I (and many
others) still seem to feel that there *may* be some correlation
between body fat and abductions in females, as disconnected as the
two conditions might seem. I know David Jacobs has not seen this in
his research... but that's part of the fun?? of all this. We all
see things differently.

Take care,

Sheldon

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Support Group
Date: 7 Apr 92 05:21:02 GMT

In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <04-April-92>
Jim Speiser wrote:

JS> Well, it hasn't gotten off the ground yet, but it looks like it
JS> might start pretty soon. We're getting a real influx of them
JS> down here all of a sudden. Will keep everyone posted.

You think you're being inundated now... just wait until next month
when the _Intruders_ mini-series comes to town! I predict (perhaps
this should go on "predictions") an enormous number of abductees
coming out of the closet. Better batten down the hatches and have
plenty of therapists on call.

JS> My only experiences thus farhave been with female abductees
JS> (and one male whom we agreed is probably not one). So I'm not
JS> in a position to judge at this point.

Do any of them happen to be left handed?

Regards,

Sheldon


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Re: Abduction detection
Date: 4 Apr 92 21:09:00 GMT


 JS> think you could shoot us a schematic of how it should be
 JS> hooked together?

  I could try, but I have to tell you I'd be winging it.
  Basically you want your motion detector to close a relay when it "sees"
motion. Many camcorders/vcrs use a remote or trigger that simply momentarily
closes a pair of contacts to start the tape, so that pair of contacts would
be closed by the relay.
  Let me know what you have, maybe send me pinouts or schematics and I'll
see what I can do.

                                                jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: UFO Mag. Vol.7 #3
Date: 7 Apr 92 05:59:00 GMT

The new issue of UFO Magazine was just sent to press this date. Vol. 7 #3
promises to be a very big and very controversial issue.

The Whistleblowers: The Mel Noel Story. That guy featured in Tim Good's book
"Above Top Secret" and on the Fox TV UFO Sightings: Part I. What is the real
story? Well gang, here it is.

New News from the Commonwealth of Nations; the old USSR. Paul Stonehill brings
us news from Russia and UFOs that are interested in Russian Nuclear Sites.

Puerto Rico is still a "UFO" Hotbed. Greg Bishop brings news from Puerto Rico
on its ongoing UFO "flap", close encounters, etc.

The Forum; Vicki Cooper answers critics on her stance on the Gulf Breeze
photos.

CONSPIRACY: Part I The opening of a special two part section: an intro to the
vast array of conspiracy theories currently surrounding the UFO field.

JFK Reappraised; The assassination conspiracy in Stones movie may be closer to
the truth than many would believe, and more akin to the UFO mystery than you
might believe. See what Col. Fletcher Prouty has to say.

New SDI Stuff; What did the Pentagon have to say to UFO about Star Wars?

Plus Dave Jacobs new book, reviews on new videos, and a WHOLE LOT MORE.......

see ya there.....

Best;

Don

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Dr. David Jacobs
Date: 7 Apr 92 06:10:00 GMT

On April 12th, Dr. David Jacobs will be a guest on my program "UFOs Tonite".
You will be able to pick us up on the Cable Radio Network at 9:00 PM PST and
12:00 AM Eastern. Of course also all the other times in between. You will be
able to ask David questions you may have, discuss his new book "Secret Life"
and find out what is happening right now. Tune in and we will see you there.

Best;

Don

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Abduction Detection
Date: 8 Apr 92 04:26:00 GMT


 >   He stated that in all of his years of working with patients, he has never
 >   heard one claim of abduction.

That's interesting. Did he mention any claims of contact, rather than abduction?

 > Sheldon brings up a very good point regarding the pre-disposition of the
 > alleged abductee seeking out a hypnotherapist or doctor in psychology
 > for the exploration of a possible abduction experience.

  Yes, here we have an opening for screwiness. If a person doesn't know of
*and accept* the possibility of abduction by space aliens, then a person
wouldn't seek help in exploring a possible abduction, right? So there'd be a
predisposition.

 >   I find it quite unusual that a
 > psychiatrist would not have at least one person in his client base
 > telling him this story.

  Yes, I agree. I'd think that even if a psychiatrist doesn't have someone
claiming to have been abducted, the same story would come out anyway. But I
suspect the abduction story has reached a *very* small number of psychiatrists
and psychologists, so Budd's finding might not be so far off the mark; we're
just not hearing of it from those doctors maybe because they're interpreting
the stories to be something else.
  Also, since abduction memories appear to be repressed, lots of people could
be receiving treatment but the cause of their problems has never been
determined.
  I know a couple of people who have *never* been exposed to ufo abduction
literature who have told me very similar stories to the classic "abduction
story" in dribs and drabs over time. There could have been no collusion, and
they had no discernible interest in ufology. One of those people has been a
client of a psychiatrist for about 10 years and the doctor did not uncover the
story.
  I believe the trigger for these two people was my interest in the ufo
phenomenon and I think something I said or maybe showed them "unlocked" the
first memories. Only one of the two has been hypnotized, but that was in no
way a regression attempt.
  Also, neither *claimed* anything or told anyone else.
  So here's one who's likely to have been an abduction victim, if indeed there
are such things as abductions, and the doctor never heard the story.

                                           jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: abduction research
Date: 8 Apr 92 04:31:01 GMT


 >  he agreed that we just don't see abduction
 > experiences being exposed spontaneously during the course of
 > psychotherapy.

  OTOH, a patient who believes himself to have been abducted might logically
consider such a story too nutball to even tell a psychiatrist. Or might be
afraid of commitment.
  Also, since the abduction memory commonly appears to be repressed, it might
not come out without the patient and doctor actively looking for it.
  Plus I suspect most doctors would routinely interpret such a story as meaning
something else entirely, or just dismiss it as fantasy. We're not hearing from
those doctors.

                                           jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: _secret Life_ Reviewed
Date: 8 Apr 92 04:34:00 GMT


 >
 > Van Marte also critiqued Ellen Crystall's new book _Silent
 > Invasion: The Shocking Discoveries of a UFO researcher_,
 > far less
 > favorably than your work I might add.
 >

Sheldon:

What did Lynn have to say about Ellen Crystall's book?  Bob
Girard ripped it to shreds in the latest Arcturus catalog.

                                              --  John

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Support Group
Date: 8 Apr 92 06:16:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <04-06-92 22:21> Sheldon Wernikoff wrote:

SW>  You think you're being inundated now... just wait until next month
SW>  when the _Intruders_ mini-series comes to town! I predict (perhaps

Oh golly, I can hardly wait.

SW>  Do any of them happen to be left handed?
SW>

I dunno, but Mark Rodeghier's in town, I'll ask him tomorrow.

Jim

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                          Abduction Digest, Number 57

                           Thursday, April 16th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                 Ellen Crystall
                                 Larry King Show
                               Abduction Detection
                                      Stuff
                                    Research
                             Missing fetus syndrome
                                 Larry King Show
                         Re: More Secret Life Questions
                           Re: _Secret Life_ Reviewed
                                 Larry King Show
                         Re: More Secret Life Questions
                               Re: Larry King Show
                        Re: Secret Life - Questions, 2/3
                                 Re: ABDUCTIONS
                                 Re: OVERWEIGHT?
                           Re: _Secret Life_ Reviewed
                           Re: _Secret Life_ Reviewed
                              I'm back once again.
                               I'm back again (2)
                           Re: _Secret Life_ Reviewed

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Ellen Crystall
Date: 11 Apr 92 05:00:01 GMT


In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <07-April-92 21:34>
John Burke wrote:

JB> What did Lynn have to say about Ellen Crystall's book?  Bob
JB> Girard ripped it to shreds in the latest Arcturus catalog.

Yes John, Bob utilizes interesting merchandising techniques in his
operation. No doubt Ellen's book is selling well for him. If *I*
perceive a product to be "trash", I don't carry it.

Anyway... what follows are Lynn Van Matre's comments on Crystall's
book _Silent Invasion: The Shocking Discoveries of a UFO
Researcher_, from Chicago Tribune, 30-March-92:
 ................................................................

Ellen Crystall's _Silent Invasion_ (Paragon House, $19.95) is a
readable but hardly "shocking" first-person account of the writer's
20 years of UFO encounters. Crystall, a doctoral candidate in music
composition at New York University and founder of the UFO research
group "Contactee", had never been abducted, but believes that she
and others have been specifically targeted for sightings.

Over the years Crystall has taken more than 1,000 photos of alien
craft and their occupants, some of which are included here.
Crystall's sightings and photos, most of them in rural Pine Bush,
NY, (and many of them corroborated by other eyewitnesses) have
garnered her a credible reputation as a UFO researcher. But even
the most sympathetic reader will be hard-pressed to see the murky
photos reproduced here in black and white as proof of UFO
phenomena. The "ships" are mostly blips of light on a field of
black, and the "aliens" are wholly indistinguishable.

Crystall speculates that aliens avoid being photographed clearly by
surrounding their craft with shortwave radiation that interferes
with the emulsion of photographic film. Like Jacobs, she concludes
that the aliens are not here to help save Earth. These
extraterrestrial tourists are pursuing their own agenda - whatever
that may be.
 ................................................................

Take care,

Sheldon

                                             ---
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Larry King Show
Date: 11 Apr 92 05:00:02 GMT


David... I just saw your exchange with Larry King and Phil Klass on
"Larry King Live", and must commend you on a job well done! You
certainly maintained your poise throughout the discussion.

Obviously (or should I say "incredibly"), as Klass stated, he had
not read _Secret Life_, and was not *at all* familiar with your
position regarding the psychological condition of your subjects.
In fact, your convictions are actually in direct opposition to
Klass's indictments.

Debate is an effective tool only when both factions are well
acquainted with the topic at hand. Klass was conspicuosly ill-
prepared, even with his inaccurate notes.

You and I, and other participants in this echo, certainly don't
agree on all aspects of the abduction phenomenon, but at least our
dialectic is constructive. Klass's assertions ensconced nothing but
his own obliviousness to your work.

 -- Sheldon

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Abduction Detection
Date: 5 Apr 92 23:53:10 GMT

In a message to John Powell <01 Apr 92 13:48> John Hicks wrote:

 > JP>  and the medical/psychiatric community
 > JP> should be embarassed and ashamed that a professor of
 > JP> history had to go out to the fringes to codify something
 > JP> that _they_ should have already been focused on and
 > JP> addressing...
 JH>  The medical community, in general, suffers from their group
 JH> mindset even when they disagree; plus, I think the "gatekeepers"
 JH> keep the fringe stuff out of professional journals.

Actually, I don't have a real problem with that.  I read several technical
journals and I prefer that they have fact-based and generally after-the-fact
type of material.  (Or at least solidly grounded speculation...)

 JH>  He's open-minded, but oddball stories from space alien
 JH> magazines are pretty useless to him.

He's not alone in that regard! <grin>

 JH>  I think Dr. Jacobs used his abilities as a historian to great
 JH> benefit in his abduction investigations; it's a much different
 JH> viewpoint than the usual doctor-patient relationship.

Yes indeed, I thought it was a terrific piece of work!  (I hope he gets the
recognition he deserves and I hope the Ashtray Commandos leave him alone...)

Thanks, take care.
John.

--
John Powell - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Stuff
Date: 7 Apr 92 07:20:49 GMT

Sheldon, I've lost my Fido UFO Echo link...  Did you send me a Netmail a few
months ago?  I tried to reply and it got bounced with some message like "no
one with that name at that address..."

Just read Keith's article on Implants in IUR.  Did you notice that when this
matter got just big enough to require documentation that the leading
authorities are now claiming that the aliens are using "fleshy implants" that
are not detectable...???

Steve's implant X-ray/photo matches very well with a description in David
Jacobs book.

Thanks, take care.
John.

--
John Powell - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Research
Date: 7 Apr 92 05:20:00 GMT

Hi Sheldon, sorry that I have been quiet on this folder for a while
but I have been attending to other aspects of UFOlogy, other than
abductions. (Yes, abductions are actually only one part of the
subject-there are still reports of disc like objects stopping cars
occurring in places etc). Anyway to your message.
1. Yes, I did receive an invitation to attend the conference at MIT in
June. However, I do not have a spare Aust$2,500 for the air fare I'm
afraid so I wont be there. Should be a good affair.
2. Thanks for the compliment on the IUR implants article. I enjoyed
writing it, though the research took some 6 months. Despite everything
which has been written on the topic-"we ain't got the proof" yet!
3. I'm looking at an article on the "missing fetus" syndrome next.
There are many claims to have come across abduction of females where
they were impregnated and then the fetus removed at 3-4 months. This
syndrome was uncovered by Budd Hopkins with the story of Kathie in
"Intruders", and followed by I think from memory 4 other cases,
described in the same book. From this Budd deduced aliens are here
experimenting with us genetically. However, Jean Mundy who analysed
some 2000 reported abductions from the Omni magazine survey stated
that only some 9 % of female abductees were reporting missing fetus'.
Somehow Budd's small sample of 4-5 cases has been blown up to be a
genetic experimentation hypothesis for 100% of cases. I'll be
exploring this theme in my article.
4. Re FPP. I think many people, including Dave Jacobs are missing some
vital points. No one to my knowledge, with the possible exception of
the latest CUFOS study, has utilised the main stream tests which
detected FPP in 1981, on abductees. What Bob Bartholomew and I
challenged people to do was to take a sample of abductees and run these
standard FPP detecting psychological questionnaires by them and answer
the question, scientifically, are abductees FPP? These tests are
listed in Barber and Wilson's, and others journal articles. Bob and I
listed them in a letter to the Journal of UFO Studies-they are
available to professional psychologists. One cannot dismiss the
possible relevance of FPP to abductees until this testing is done. No
one, (CUFOS?) has done the testing, therefore no one can yet say FPP
is not the answer!
5. Take a small, but highly significant fact in Barber and Wilson's
1981 work. They found that a large percentage of their FPP group had
experienced phantom pregnancies-cessation of menstruation, tender
breasts, morning sickness etc. 2 were so convinced they were pregnant
they presented for abortions. Come the abortion procedure no baby was
found! Exactly what Budd etc have been saying for abductees-the
missing fetus syndrome . Yet these 2 women were FPP with no thought, in
1981, of abductions. Were they actually abductees? Or, as is more
likely, so highly imaginative, they convinced themselves and the
medical profession they were pregnant! I've not found many abduction
researchers who have actually read the original 1981 Barber and Wilson
work-I've got copies if anyone is interested.
In summary, you can't yet say FPP is not relevant, because UFO
researchers have not done the testing to prove it is a false
hypothesis.

--
Keith Basterfield - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Missing fetus syndrome
Date: 7 Apr 92 05:26:00 GMT

Thank you to those who have commented on my recent IUR article on
"implants" and to those who have written for copies of it. As you will
note in a separate message to Sheldon Wernikoff, I am now taking a
look at the missing fetus syndrome-like implants much talked about,
but seemingly with little medical documentation existing. I'd like to
put out a call for any material which people have come across,
particularly documented cases studies. Although i have written some
critical pieces on abductions and continue to push for a proper look
at the FPP hypothesis, I do regard the subject as worthy of
attention-or I wouldn't be spending so much of my time on it.

--
Keith Basterfield - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Anson Kennedy)
Subject: Larry King Show
Date: 11 Apr 92 17:52:00 GMT


 > Obviously (or should I say "incredibly"), as Klass stated, he had
 > not read _Secret Life_, and was not *at all* familiar with your
 > position regarding the psychological condition of your subjects.
 > In fact, your convictions are actually in direct opposition to
 > Klass's indictments.

 > Debate is an effective tool only when both factions are well
 > acquainted with the topic at hand. Klass was conspicuosly ill-
 > prepared, even with his inaccurate notes.

I suspect that Klass was called in at the last minute to present the skeptics'
POV.  This happens frequently.  I was called to appear opposite some psychics
on a local discussion show.  We were told the topic of discussion only the day
before the show aired (it was live), and even then the moderator changed the
topic.

So I don't think it's too surprising that he had not read the book.  You might
ask, "Why did he go on anyway then?" Well, he had two choices:  to decline to
go on and then have Larry King say, "We invited arch-skeptic Phil Klass to be
on to rebut Dr. Jacobs, but he refused;"  or to go ahead and do the show.

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. :-)

                                     --- Anson

--
Anson Kennedy - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: More Secret Life Questions
Date: 12 Apr 92 06:08:00 GMT

Hi James,

I saw your questions regarding abductees, and have one answer for you.
Jim Speiser, here in AZ, did some work with a female abductee about a
year ago named Lydia.  One of the things Lydia mentioned was that when
she saw yellow beams like search lights in her bedroom, she thought,
"What the...?" and reached over on the bedstand for her glasses but was
gone before she could even get to them.

Here next recollection was that of being outside in the night sky,
gently floating upwards to a dark "bell-shaped" object at some distance
above her.  She did not feel the cool night air, even though the
abduction happened in April, and April nights in Arizona can be quite
cool.

Hope that helps,

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Re: _Secret Life_ Reviewed
Date: 12 Apr 92 23:00:00 GMT

Linda Bird writes:

 > Just curious:  what do you think of Bob Girard's (Artcturus
 > Books) book reviews?  They're always a kick to read, and he
 > can be rough on some people.

Exactly.  Although it seems that most reviewers of *anything*
have favorite targets that usually get hit pretty hard.  I find
his catalog more fun to read than _Saucer Smear_.

 > However, his very own book, REVOLT OF THE FREE, was unreadable
 > in my opinion.  I have it, and couldn't make any sense out of
 > it.  (I got more out of his review of his own book than I did
 > the book itself!!)

Actually, he reviewed (or should I say PREviewed) the book once
or twice before it was available.  After it was available, there
was at least one more review.  After I read all of those, I
thought :  "OK, I get it!  Thanks Bob, you just saved me $12!"

                                 --  John

--
John Burke - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Larry King Show
Date: 12 Apr 92 23:22:00 GMT

Anson Kennedy writes:

 > I suspect that Klass was called in at the last minute to
 > present the skeptics' POV.  This happens frequently.

 >                    *  *  *

 > So I don't think it's too surprising that he had not read
 > the book.  You might ask, "Why did he go on anyway then?"
 > Well, he had two choices:  to decline to go on and then
 > have Larry King say, "We invited arch-skeptic Phil Klass to
 > be on to rebut Dr. Jacobs, but he refused;"  or to go ahead
 > and do the show.

 He also lives in Washington D.C., where Larry does his show.

                                         -- John

--
John Burke - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: More Secret Life Questions
Date: 12 Apr 92 14:24:00 GMT

OK, so I couldn't stay away for more than a day or two...at least not yet...

Roger, as Linda has told you, the Lydia case had some interesting sensory
input. Most interesting was the fact that she consciously recalled being in
the "examining room" and not being able to see too clearly. _LATER_, she
recalled hypnotically that she had not been able to reach her glasses before
she was taken from her bedroom; hence the blurry vision.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Larry King Show
Date: 12 Apr 92 22:49:00 GMT

Hi Sheldon,

I do agree with you that Jacobs handled the interview very well.
Klass, as usual, wore his little "Klass-smirk" throughout.

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Secret Life - Questions, 2/3
Date: 12 Apr 92 23:13:00 GMT

Hi John,

In a recent series of questions you posed to David Jacobs regarding
abductees, I might be able to shed some light on one of your questions,
"While switched off, don't people get cramped or need to go to the
bathroom?"

About a year ago when Jim Speiser was investigating Lydia, she
mentioned that she needed to use the bathroom, and thinking to herself
(so she thought), she thought, "I have to go to pottie..."  At this
point, the Alien to who she was talking, looked surprised and
concerned, and hit some kind of lever at the end of the examination
table.  The next thing Lydia knew, she was back in her bedroom in bed
with an need to use the bathroom.

Perhaps Jim has something further to add.

Regards,

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: ABDUCTIONS
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:42:04 GMT

To answer one of your questions. A fairly good psychological evaluation can
be done in an hour and a half interview. Trained professionals (and trained
non-professionals) with experience can see trends and patterns which indicate
personality traits. I think you can see in your own everyday life, that you
get impressions of people after talking to them for a few minutes. In an
atmosphere of a private office evaluation, much can be determined in a short
period of time.

As an example you can read a message on this echo, from someone who has
written nothing before, and start to get some idea about their viewpoints and
attitudes by the content, vocabulary and methods of reasoning.

Actually in about 45 minutes of constant verbal exchange, one can get the
basic attributes of another person. As for the deep parts, you are of course
correct. One does not need to know the why to know that A person is living in
a world of dillusion, or denial of reality. We can determine by conversation
if someone has compulsive obsessive traits. A "FPP" will show itself just as
well. Although we can choose what we wear, even clothes are an indication in
many people. Add posture, eye movements, and body language... It all adds up
fast.
--
Pete Porro - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: OVERWEIGHT?
Date: 10 Apr 92 17:54:25 GMT

Your observation makes me wonder what percentage of the population is
overweight according to the standards? Or to look at it in another way,
overweight compared to who? (whom?) I don't know if this is relevant, but
maybe except for a few "perfect" people and the anorexic club, the US
population is mostly overweight? I speak for my 15 lbs. of spare tire and
enjoyment of eating personally. 8*)

Is the observation that abductees and people who see UFO's appear to be
overweight, a matter of fact, because most people are the same? Or to try to
state it more clearly, if 80% of the population is overweight, then we could
expect 80% of the people who observe UFo's to also be the same?

If the body type falls out of the normal distribution, then it might point
to something. Just for thought since I don't know the answer.

As long as I running with the fingers today. I believe there was something
here, that passed me by. But I wonder what percentage of abductee's are
products of abusive enviroments. (physical, verbal or mental are options)
Abuse is not limited to physical when one see's similar bahavior patterns
emerging from all of the above.
--
Pete Porro - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: _Secret Life_ Reviewed
Date: 14 Apr 92 04:05:00 GMT

Hi John,

You know what REVOLT OF THE FREE is about?!  Please tell me as I
haven't a clue!  Does it have something to do with population control,
and how do aliens or UFO's fit in?

Waiting, and thanks,

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Re: _Secret Life_ Reviewed
Date: 15 Apr 92 07:10:00 GMT

Linda Bird writes:

 > You know what REVOLT OF THE FREE is about?!  Please tell me
 > as I haven't a clue!  Does it have something to do with
 > population control, and how do aliens or UFO's fit in?

I should again point out that my knowledge about this book is
limited to what Bob Girrard has discussed in his catalog . . .

He estimates that 9,999 out of every 10,000 people are
dysfunctional, brain-dead zombies who rely on religions,
governments and space brothers to solve all of their problems.
As a result of this displaced confidence, we are rapidly headed
toward apocalypse, with things like AIDS, TB and starvation
killing off large chunks of the world's population.

His "solution" (not unlike the old "Final Solution") is that the
"free" (those who are not bound up by co-dependant belief systems
such as religion, reliance upon space brothers for salvation,
etc.) should revolt and re-create the human species, using a
handful of carefully-chosen, highly-motivated humans which will
be known as the "Core Humanity".  (Sounds a bit like the "Master
Race", doesn't it?)  Worse yet, Bob points out that "since no
humans will likely VOLUNTEER their own elimination on behalf of
the `greater good', a revolution will most likely be needed to
accomplish such a program".  I hate to speculate on how such a
program would be accomplished, since the only thing that comes to
mind is gas-emitting shower heads.  I wonder why?

                                     --  John

--
John Burke - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: I'm back once again.
Date: 15 Apr 92 06:46:29 GMT


       I'm sorry to have not posted recently, but I have been swamped  with
work and with media appearances in connection with my book.  I just  want to
assure my friends and colleagues that I will try to get to most  of their
questions soon (although there was a three-pager that I am not sure I will be
able to handle).

     Here are a few random points that I picked up on after quickly  reviewing
the messages to me.  Because psychiatrists and psychologists do  not often have
patients presenting with abduction accounts must be  considered in light of
various factors.  First, most abductees do not  know themselves that they have
been the victims of abductions.  Rather,  they have been the subject of
numerous bizarre and extraordinary events  for which the society provides a
menu of explanations.  They may have had  unwanted and unexpected out of body
experiences.  They may have seen a  ghost or a deceased relative standing by
their bed.  They may have woken  up in the middle of the night paralyzed and
seen a monster when they were  an adult.  They may have had missing time
experiences that they simply  chalked up to "road hypnosis" or some such thing.
 Needless to say, the  therapist is not going to recognize the potential of
these experiences to  be anything other than psychological abberations.

     Second, many, many abductees have gone to therapists with abduction
accounts consciously remembered.  Many of these tell their therapist what has
happened to them.  They receive too explanations:  The accounts are  delusional
and the person must be made to recognize the events in their  life that led to
these delusions; and they have been the subject of  protracted and cruel sexual
abuse as a child and the abduction accounts  are simply screen memories for
their abuse.  We have had many abductees  come forward with these stories.

     Third, we have also heard that many abductees, for various reasons, will
not tell their therapist what has happened to them.   Some they  feel guilty if
they talk about it, for others it might make them seem to  crazy even for the
therapist, and so forth.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: I'm back again (2)
Date: 15 Apr 92 07:15:18 GMT


    Sorry, I inadvertently saved the last message while trying to edit it. I
will try to pick up where I left off.

     Fourth, a number of therapists have referred abductees to Budd and to me.
 They recognize that the abduction material is something that they have never
heard before and that is not internally generated.  They are in a minority, to
be sure, but there numbers are growing.
 furthermore, we have made significant inroads into the therapeutic community
for help and support.  It is not the physicists or the  astronomers who have
begun to understand the seriousness of the  situations, it is the therapists.
They know that this is something that they have never encountered before and
that it is beyond their expertise  to handle.

     Fifth, we have a number of therapists, (psychologists, psychiatrists, and
psychiatric social workers) who have come forward with abduction accounts of
their own.  I think that the total is about 12-15 now.     Thus, I am somewhat
puzzled why Mark Rodeghier would state that he talked to a psychiatrist who had
never had an abductee talking about his  abductions--as if this had some sort
of significance for the existence of  the abductions themselves.

     Re: Overweight people.  Although it is possible that the abduction
phenomenon might make people overeat because of stress, etc., it is just as
possible that they might lose weight for the same reason.  The people  I have
seen run the gamut from fat to skinny and I believe that Budd's  population
does as well.  I really do not see this as a pattern that we  ought to turn
our attention to--there are more important things to  consider first.

     Re: fantasy prone personalities.  I repeat, this is a nonstarter.  I
don't want to get into a heavy discourse about this theory.  It is based  on
the idea that abductions are internally generated.  The parameters of  FPP are
controversial as is even the existence of it as a separate  psychiatric
condition (I think).  "Measuring" it obviously is going to  present us with a
myriad of difficulties in interpretation and meaning.  Given this, Kenneth Ring
found in his Omega study that fantasy prone  personalities did not play a role
in the generation of abduction  accounts.  I believe that CUFOS found that most
abductees  that they  studies were not fantasy prone (I am going on word of
mouth here).   Neither Budd Hopkins nor I have found any evidence whatsoever
for fantasy  prone individuals to be generating abduction accounts.  As far as
I know,  John Mack has found no evidence for abductions being caused by fantasy
 prone people, and so on.

     I really do think that chasing after the fantasy prone personality
hypothesis is an exercise in futility and wheel spinning.  But if people  what
to spend their time and energy doing this, then I guess I can't  persuade them
otherwise.  I would liek to see intelligent people use  their talents in more
productive research on the accounts themselves.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: _Secret Life_ Reviewed
Date: 15 Apr 92 06:34:00 GMT

Yikes, John!

You put it so well, that even if Girard had never written such a book,
one could argue that the premise could be true, yet frightening!  All
one has to do is take a look at some of the brain dead students and
administrators at my school and wonder...

Will be going to a new school with new principal next year, but the
same old kids (and their parents) will be tagging right along.

So now that I'm off-topic...However, I have wondered about these folks
and wonder what they would make of an abduction.  The area where I work
is poor, mostly Hispanic, and Catholic.  I wonder if there would be
anyone around to "catch on" that an abduction had taken place.

Any comments?

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 58

                           Thursday, April 23rd 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                 Ellen Crystall
                       Implants Are Real--Get Yours Today!
                                    Research
                                 Ellen Crystall
                          Secret Life - Questions, 2/3
                              I'm back once again.
                                 Ellen Crystall
                        Re: Secret Life - Questions, 2/3

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Ellen Crystall
Date: 16 Apr 92 21:14:00 GMT


 > Crystall speculates that aliens avoid being photographed clearly by
 > surrounding their craft with shortwave radiation that interferes
 > with the emulsion of photographic film.

  Ahem....IMHO anyone who'd make such a statement hasn't a clue.

                                           jbh

--
John Hicks - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: ns-mx.uiowa.edu!jrblack
Subject: Implants Are Real--Get Yours Today!
Date: 18 Apr 92 00:12:37 GMT

From: James Roger Black <[e-mail]>

In an article in talk.politics.misc on Usenet News, dated 2 Apr 92,
Jim Mason ([e-mail]), writes:

|> Chanced upon an episode of that Australian TV show 'Beyond 2000' last night
|> on TDC. I arrived at the tail end of a story about a device called
|> 'KIDSCAN'. This appears to be an adaptation of a lab-animal ID tag that
|> is regularly advertized in the weekly science journals like 'AAAS SCIENCE'
|> and 'NATURE'. What you have is a tiny glass capsule containing a passive
|> radio re-transmitter designed to be injected directly under the skin of
|> the animal. These things are very tiny - looks like maybe 0.75x2.0 mm.
|> They are designed to derive energy from an RF field and then re-transmit
|> at another frequency. The transmission contains a multi-digit ID code that
|> allows each animal to be positively identified.
|>
|> KIDSCAN is the same principal ... but is being sold as something you have
|> implanted into your children - for their health and safety according to
|> the seller. These versions appear to be a little larger and can transmit
|> for a several block radius.

So there you have it:  tracking-implant technology for the masses.  If
this kind of stuff is being advertised in science magazines, just
imagine what the black-budget folks must have come up with by now.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Roger Black                                             [e-mail]
 Disclaimer:                My employer doesn't even know I have any opinions.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Research
Date: 17 Apr 92 04:50:00 GMT

In a previous message Roger Black asked an interesting point re the
ability of someone who uses either spectacles or contact lenses, to
see during an abduction. This issue raised itself with me during an
interview with an Australian woman who was experiencing "apparitions".
During the interview she wore spectacles and commented that without
them she was not able to see clearly at other than short distances.
However, awakening during the night, to observe an "apparition" in her
bedroom she noted that she could observe every detail extremely
clearly. This clarity was not consistent with her normal vision. In
abduction research does anyone know the answer to Roger's question? If
not, it is a point worth checking next time you interview an abductee.

--
Keith Basterfield - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Ellen Crystall
Date: 18 Apr 92 18:49:00 GMT

In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <16 Apr 92 14:14> John Hicks wrote:

 >> Crystall speculates that aliens avoid being photographed clearly by
 >> surrounding their craft with shortwave radiation that interferes
 >> with the emulsion of photographic film.

 JH>  Ahem....IMHO anyone who'd make such a statement hasn't a clue.

A localized time shift could shift light from a UFO into IR or UV, or even make
it invisible.  But if that's what they're up to, they probably aren't doing it
to waste folks' FotoMat dollars...  :-)

Best,
 Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Secret Life - Questions, 2/3
Date: 18 Apr 92 22:38:58 GMT

In a message to John Powell <12 Apr 92 16:13> Linda Bird wrote:

 LB> Hi John,

How are ya Linda!?  Things sure have been strange around here lately.  If I
didn't know better I'd swear that it was my turn to be under the microscope...

 LB> ...one of your questions, "While switched off, don't people get cramped
 LB> or need to go to the bathroom?"

(Seems I really bombarded him...  His book answered a number of questions I've
had for awhile but it also crystalized a number of other questions that I've
been ruminating on...)  The question above is representative of the general
'Switched Off' aspect of the phenomenon that concerns me.

 LB> About a year ago when Jim Speiser was investigating Lydia, she
 LB> mentioned that she needed to use the bathroom, and thinking to herself
 LB> (so she thought), she thought, "I have to go to pottie..."  At
 LB> this point, the Alien to who she was talking, looked surprised
 LB> and concerned, and hit some kind of lever at the end of the
 LB> examination table.  The next thing Lydia knew, she was back in
 LB> her bedroom in bed with a need to use the bathroom.

Interesting. I gather Lydia was a child... Why did you say "(so she thought)" ,
are there indications that this was a generated response/action as some sort of
test?

I think I've read a few accounts where the switched off people were also
monitired by "guards", (I think this is mentioned in Fowler's work?), but it
doesn't seem to be SOP.  Which seems _very_ inconsistent with the other secrecy
aspects of the Abduction Scenario.  I would think that leaving a group of
switched off people unattended would be incredibly risky...

 LB> Perhaps Jim has something further to add.

I hope so...

Thanks, take care.
John.

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: I'm back once again.
Date: 19 Apr 92 19:28:39 GMT

In a message to All Users <14 Apr 92 23:46> David Jacobs wrote:

 DJ> I just  want to assure my friends and colleagues that I will try
 DJ> to get to most  of their questions soon (although there was a
 DJ> three-pager that I am not  sure I will be able to handle).

Sorry about the 3-pager.  I thought I'd just get everything out all at once
while it was fresh...  Please don't feel that you need to personally, or even
point by point, answer.  I'm sure the bulk of items will come up for
discussion here over time anyway.

Thanks, take care.
John.




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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Ellen Crystall
Date: 22 Apr 92 08:12:00 GMT

John Hicks writes:

 > > Crystall speculates that aliens avoid being photographed clearly by
 > > surrounding their craft with shortwave radiation that interferes
 > > with the emulsion of photographic film.
 >
 >   Ahem....IMHO anyone who'd make such a statement hasn't a
 > clue.
 >
 >                                            jbh

In her book, Ellen Crystall indicates that her definition of
"shortwave radiation" includes X-rays and gamma rays.  She
believes that use of a camera with a plastic lens instead of a
glass lens can help overcome this problem.  Does this make sense
from the photographic standpoint?

I've finally seen a copy of her book although I haven't had time
to read it yet.  It's too bad that the pictures are printed in
black and white.  I've seen them in color and they look a little
more impressive, particularly the photograph which is reprinted
in the book (I believe) as photo #13.  As far as the photos that
are said to depict aliens go  ...  I think that a person who was
not a witness to the actual event would almost have to be
tripping in order to see the aliens in the pictures.  I think Bob
Girard hit this book awfully hard because so much of what was
discussed was based more on *belief* than detached observation.
This is the problem when a book is written by a percipient rather
than an investigator with no first-hand witnessing experience.
Although Ellen emphasizes that she has never been abducted, she
does claim a good bit of experience with CE I's thru III's with
"humanoid sightings".  Compare the balls of light that she
referrs to as "Tesla fields" to the balls of light in the Russian
photographs which appear in Jaques Vallee's new (too tiny for
$18) book on Russian ufology.  They might be something more than
artifacts of the photographic process.  Whaddaya think?

                                  --  John

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Secret Life - Questions, 2/3
Date: 23 Apr 92 03:44:00 GMT

Hi John,

Under the microscope instead of the weather, huh?  Hehehe

Well, Lydia said she was having a mental conversation with the aliens,
that suddenly she could "hear" their thoughts in her head, and she
answered back with a thought.  But when she was thinking to HERSELF,
"Gee, I have to go to pottie..." she thought this was a private thought
that the aliens wouldn't be able to pick up on.  Sort of like pressing
the "mute" button on a remote control TV gadget.  Instead, the alien
DID pick up on the thought!  He got her out of there, perhaps afraid
she would make a mess.

I remember reading the account of the South American youth, somebody
Boas, I think, who was plowing in his field when he was abducted by
Aliens.  He was there for the purpose of being seduced by an exotic
female alien, but before she appeared, some odd-smelling gas was
emitted into his compartment on the craft.  He said that it made him
sick, and he vomitted in a corner.  So, perhaps aliens are tired of
cleaning up after human messes.

Lydia was an adult when this experience occurred.

Take care!

Linda Bird


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 59

                           Wednesday, April 29th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                             Re: Thursday TV Program
                             Re: Thursday TV Program
                                  Budd Hopkins
                                 Ellen Crystall
                                  Budd Hopkins
                            Re: Secret Life - Questio
                                 Scott Corder MD
                             Re: Thursday Tv Program
                           KOA Weird Night appearance
                            Re: Secret Life - Questio
                               Re: Scott Corder MD
                                   malpractice
                             Re: Abduction Detection

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Thursday TV Program
Date: 24 Apr 92 04:38:00 GMT

In a message to A L L <04-20-92 21:22> Linda Bird wrote:

LB>  I understand that the early evening program "Hard Copy"  (NBC)
LB>  will feature a story/stories on UFO abductions and abductees telling

Are you sure it wasn't "A Current Affair"? If so, ya didn't miss much if you
missed it. They sandwiched in a fairly credible segment on abductions
between the Gulf Breeze flare balloons and Scott Corder, of all people. (By
the way, Mike Corbin, were you aware that he got his medical licence back??)

Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Thursday TV Program
Date: 24 Apr 92 05:17:00 GMT

Hi Jim,

Just watched the tape of the UFO show on "A current Affair"  --  you
were right!  Anyway I got the tape correct.

Lots of Gulf Breeze; Uncle Phil was there; I almost forgot who Steve
Corder was until I remembered he was tied into Donna somebody; Jim, you
think those asre flare balloons?  As good an explanation as any...they
forgot cattle mutes.

See ya,

Linda

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Budd Hopkins
Date: 21 Apr 92 06:37:48 GMT


    Budd Hopkins had a surgical procedure last week in New York and it went
extremely well.  He can anticipate no more problems and will lead a healthy
life (hopefully).  He is home now and on the mend.  Although it threw a scare
into all of us close to him, the best possible outcome came  from a serious
situation.  We are all relieved and Budd will resume his schedule in a few
weeks.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Ellen Crystall
Date: 22 Apr 92 04:43:00 GMT


 > A localized time shift could shift light from a UFO into IR or UV, or
 > even make it invisible.

  Well, ok....you know much more about that than I do...but that's still not
what she said. Haven't come across the book yet.

 >  But if that's what they're up to, they probably
 > aren't doing it to waste folks' FotoMat dollars...  :-)

  Yeah, I'll buy that.

                                           jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Budd Hopkins
Date: 24 Apr 92 15:09:00 GMT


 >     Budd Hopkins had a surgical procedure last week in New York and it
 > went extremely well.  He can anticipate no more problems and will lead a
 >  healthy life (hopefully).  He is home now and on the mend.  Although it
 >  threw a scare into all of us close to him, the best possible outcome
 > came  from a serious situation.  We are all relieved and Budd will
 > resume his  schedule in a few weeks.

Perhaps you could elaborate a little more on what happened with Budd.  No one
on the network is aware that he was ill.

Thanks,

Mike

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Re: Secret Life - Questio
Date: 25 Apr 92 09:15:00 GMT

In a message to John Powell <22 Apr 92  20:44> Linda Bird wrote:

 LB> Under the microscope instead of the weather, huh?  Hehehe

How are ya Linda. Yeah, the recent past here has been nothing short of
baffling.  It seems that "Officialdom" has coagulated around me... Fortunately,
I'm not an overly paranoid person...

 LB> But when she was thinking to HERSELF, "Gee, I have to go to pottie..."
 LB> she thought this was a private thought that the aliens wouldn't be able
 LB> to pick up on.  Sort of like pressing the "mute" button on a remote
 LB> control TV gadget.  Instead, the alien DID pick up on the thought!  He
 LB> got her out of there, perhaps afraid she would make a mess.
 LB> Lydia was an adult when this experience occurred.

Why would an adult think "pottie"?  Don't you think that's an unusual choice of
words/expression?  (How did she determine it was a "he"?)  Why would they be
worried about such a mess?

I love these kind of examples because lately I've been forcing myself to
specifically concentrate on two possibilities:  1) Abductions occur strictly in
the mind, they have no objective reality, they have no physical reality, they
are a self-created illus
I haven't begun to understand all the elements associated with #2 above, (and
I've allowed myself #1 simply to serve as the whipping boy), but there are at
least two areas that interest me.

First, there is the large area called Stigmata, (which Jacobs should have done
more on, IMHO).  It is not enough to acknowledge that stigmata exists, which it
does, and then dismiss it solely because we don't understand how it could
possibly account for t(his.) It is not enough to explain Christian-related
blood myths as stigmatic responses and close the book.  The _mind_ caused those
experiences, that much is documented.  Shall we assume that the mind is,
somehow, therefore incapable of a non-Christian stigmati
Second, there is this area called 'phantom pain', usually associated with
phantom limbs.  An amputee can 'feel' the missing limb, feel heat or cold or
touch, etc.  Additionally, when a spot on a phantom limb 'itches' it can be
'scratched' and the 'itch' w
"...neuromatrix, or network of neurons, that, in addition to responding to
sensory stimulation, continuously generates a characteristic pattern of
impulses indicating that the body is intact and unequivocally one's own."

"The brain does more than detect and analyze inputs; it generates perceptual
experience even when no external inputs occur.  We do not need a body to feel
a body."

"Phantoms [sensory experience from phantom limbs] become comprehensible once we
recognize that the brain generates the experience of the body.  Sensory inputs
merely modulate that experience; they do not directly cause it."

- Phantom Limbs, Ronald Melzack, Ph.D, Professor of Psychology, Scientific
American, April, 1992.

The mind maintains a template of itself, of a conceived self, and it's form.
 Removing a portion of the form does not alter the original template - the
template exists, in at least a near-complete form, prior to the existance of
the form itself.

If the _mind_ is abducted, (and I have no idea what that experience would be
like nor do I think does anyone who hasn't experienced it; and given this
proposed scenario I feel that conventional hypnotic regression techniques are
_fully incapable_ of revea
(If the mind was abducted then the abductor might return it to it's body
before it wet the bed to avoid detection...???)

Thanks, take care.
John.

 * X R S * Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Scott Corder MD
Date: 25 Apr 92 19:42:02 GMT

* In a message originally to Linda Bird, Jim Speiser said:
>Are you sure it wasn't "A Current Affair"? If so, ya didn't
>miss much if you missed it. They sandwiched in a fairly
>credible segment on abductions between the Gulf Breeze flare
>balloons and Scott Corder, of all people. (By the way, Mike
>Corbin, were you aware that he got his medical licence back??)

Hi Jim,
        You saw the show, then?  I saw a teaser for it but couldn't
watch the program.  I'm interested in the Corder situation (OMNI
story I did) and didn't know he had his license back -- is this
firm, not a gonna but a done?  I'd love to hear anything you recall
from that segment.  Thanks for the note (above) mentioning it which
allowed me to learn about this interesting detail!
                                ==Peggy==
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Re: Thursday Tv Program
Date: 25 Apr 92 19:46:03 GMT

* In a message originally to Jim Speiser, Linda Bird said:
>Hi Jim,
>
>Just watched the tape of the UFO show on "A current Affair"  --
>you were right!  Anyway I got the tape correct.
>
>Lots of Gulf Breeze; Uncle Phil was there; I almost forgot who
>Steve Corder was until I remembered he was tied into Donna
>somebody; Jim, you think those asre flare balloons?  As good an
>explanation as any...they forgot cattle mutes.

Hi Linda,
You have a tape of the program?  Any chance I could borrow it for a
week and return it?  I would be glad to pay full postage and copy
price for tape or send you something else if you'd rather.  I have
read the book that Corder and Donna/"Ruth" Butts wrote...it's a
strange story.
Thanks for mentioning the program.  (Wish I'd been able to see your
announcement mssg sooner!  That'll teach me to fail to call in
daily! <g>)
                                ==Peggy==
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: KOA Weird Night appearance
Date: 25 Apr 92 19:59:04 GMT

Hello David,
        I was so impressed by your excellent presentation on last
week's (4/24/92) "Weird Night" on KOA Radio -- you did a great job
of conveying information quickly and without extraneous detail and
of relating that information in an entertaining and enlightening
way.  It was a great program and I'm sure Rick Barber (host) enjoyed
what you had to say as much as his listeners, including myself, did.
        Many of the issues you pointed out made me see the abductee
situation in a new light.  Particularly impressive to me were two
points you raised: 1) the missing people really are physically
missing, based on searches and family members reporting the missing
to police, and 2) the similarity of all reports of examination,
whether the reporting person is an adult or small child (adults
might have common background of having read/seen/heard such
descriptions and absorbed them into confabultion but it's extremely
unlikely that children could've done so.)  The most outstanding
point, though, was the lack of explanation offered by abductees.  I
had not thought of that before -- that it would be the first thing a
confabulator or otherwise in-error person reporting abduction would
do, but these people who appear to actually be abductees have not
created or found any answer to the "why are they here" or "why are
they doing this" questions because they don't know the answers.  It
makes perfect sense that someone who would create the story of his
own abduction for whatever reason would also create a response to
fill that gap.
        In fact, the interesting points you brought up on the Weird
Night program and the comments and supporting evidence you added
have convinced me that I must now read your book.
        Thank you!
                                        ==Peggy=
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Secret Life - Questio
Date: 26 Apr 92 06:33:00 GMT

Hi John,

I don't know why aliens would be afraid of a mess, unless they have
cleaned up a bunch of messes.  Remember the South American man (I
recall the words "Villa Boas" for some reason) I mentioned earlier who
said he threw up while aboard the spacecraft.  I seem to recall
some-thing I saw in OMNI within the last year about people who said
they had thrown up while abducted.  I can look for that article later
in the week...

I recall Budd Hopkins talking about mind abductions while I attended
the Pensacola MUFON Conference in July 1990.  While the aliens may be
playing mind games, for some it is all too real, so it seems.

Regards,

Linda

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Scott Corder MD
Date: 26 Apr 92 23:18:00 GMT

Hi Peggy:


PN>  Hi Jim,
PN>          You saw the show, then?  I saw a teaser for it but couldn't
PN>  watch the program.  I'm interested in the Corder situation (OMNI
PN>  story I did) and didn't know he had his license back -- is this firm,
PN>  not a gonna but a done?  I'd love to hear anything you recall from


According to the program, it's a fait accompli. I'm not sure what reason was
given for lifting it in the first place, does anyone know? Anyway, Corder
was among the strangest of the strange. I didn't know you wrote the OMNI
article about him, I would have provided you with my Corder file, which is
about an inch thick with correspondence from him, all showing one man's
gradual descent into total insanity.

The only good segment on that program was the abductions and the interview
with Jacobs. Unfortunately, that was sandwiched between the Gulf Breeze
lights and Corder. The Gulf Breeze lights are almost surely balloon-borne
road flares. A Current Affair made a big deal about catching the things on
camera and having zero explanation, yet the first thing I thought of was
"road flare." The things burned an incandescent, sparkly red for a while,
then flashed white and winked out - EXACTLY what a road flare would do.
Here's the unfortunate thing: A Current Affair used to make fun of UFOs.
While its good to see such a program change its mind, its terrible if it
happens for the wrong reason. When and If the GB flare UFOs are ever
exposed, ACA will have its face covered with indelible egg, and will
probably vow, "We won't get fooled again." After that point, a landing in
St. Peter's Square on live satellite TV wouldn't impress them.

Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: malpractice
Date: 27 Apr 92 15:33:02 GMT


Hello David,

I am interested in learning how you and the therapists that you
work with protect yourselves against potential malpractice suits
that may arise from "discontented" subjects.

This insurance consideration seems to be a significant research
roadblock for many professionals, who fear possible reprisals from
individuals for therapy conducted outside of the conventional
clinic scenario.

Regards,

Sheldon

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Tom Davis)
Subject: Re: Abduction Detection
Date: 29 Apr 92 00:18:00 GMT


  Point well made.  But, how does such an object disappear?  Does
someone (or thing) remove it, or does it molecularly come apart?  For
obvious scientific reasons, there is a bit of a problem with the latter
explanation.

--
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 60

                              Monday, May 4th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                 Re: malpractice
                                 Ellen Crystall
                                      Stuff
                                    UFO Dream
                                  Budd Hopkins
                                   KOA program
                                  Re: UFO Dream
                                   Secret Life
                               Abduction Detection

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: malpractice
Date: 29 Apr 92 21:55:00 GMT

Sheldon:

I'm interested in hearing David's response as well, but I have a few
thoughts on that subject. My own personal feeling is that abductionists
should always recommend psychiatric counseling to their subjects from the
outset - but should stress that such recommendation is for the purpose of
PTSD or EAT therapy only and not (necessarily) for the treatment of some
perceived psychosis. A disclaimer should be signed, and thereafter if the
patient balks at the recommendation it becomes his/her problem (from a legal
standpoint).

>From the standpoint of the licensed practitioners, on the other hand, who
might charge abductionists with practicing medicine without a licence, I
feel such charges are unwarranted. First, most states do not require a
license for "counseling", and as long as the abduction therapy is conducted
strictly within this context, I don't see a conflict. Second, if counseling
abduction victims is considered "medicine", it might be incumbent upon
mental health professionals to show where Abduction Syndrome is a "disease."
THAT could prove interesting....

Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Ellen Crystall
Date: 26 Apr 92 20:23:00 GMT


 >   She believes that use of a
 > camera with a plastic lens instead of a glass lens can help overcome
 > this problem.  Does this make sense from the photographic standpoint?

  No, none at all. Actually an inexpensive plastic lens might tend to produce
more flare, which could show up in the images as bright blobs.

 > I've finally seen a copy of her book although I haven't had time to read
 > it yet.  It's too bad that the pictures are printed in black and white.
 > I've seen them in color and they look a little more impressive,
 > particularly the photograph which is reprinted in the book (I believe)
 > as photo #13.

  I've been looking for the book but haven't seen it yet.

 >  I think Bob Girard hit this book awfully hard because so much
 > of what was discussed was based more on *belief* than detached
 > observation.

  Yes, that has to be considered a serious flaw.

 >   Compare the balls of light that she referrs to as "Tesla
 > fields" to the balls of light in the Russian photographs which appear in
 > Jaques Vallee's new (too tiny for $18) book on Russian ufology.  They
 > might be something more than artifacts of the photographic process.
 > Whaddaya think?

  Seems that there's been a run on OBOLs (orange balls  of light) lately.
  I'll keep looking for her book.

                                           jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Stuff
Date: 26 Apr 92 20:25:01 GMT


 > According to Bryon the BBS where he got UFO stopped getting it, I think he
 > said it was to reduce LD costs.

  His echomail hub arbitrarily cut off the echo!? Bryon could probably get it
directly from his REC.

                                           jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: UFO Dream
Date: 29 Apr 92 06:08:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "UFO"
 * Originally by Lynn Parham
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 27 Apr 1992, 14:55

  The following is forwarded from Fido UFO. I've suggested to Lynn that she
and/or her coworker contact you here.

                                           jbh


     My co-worker S.W. observed a UFO a year or so ago.  She later had a series
of nightmares which gradually faded.  Recently she had the following dream
which seemed quite realistic and disturbing.

   I knew something was wrong.  Instinctively I ran to one of windows looking
out on the backyard.  An intense panicky feeling overtook me as I saw the huge
dark metal disk hovering outside.  There was no sound and no lights. Fear was
over powering and my mind began to race.  I turned away from the window and
began to run from the room into the hallway.  I thought if I could reach the
front door and could get outside, I would be safe.  For some unknown reason I
knew deep inside my efforts were futile.  No sooner had I stepped into the
hallway then I felt my body began to slow down.  My steps were quickly becoming
labored, my movements slow and awkward.  The panicky feeling was slipping away
and my breathing began to slow.  I stood in the dark hallway, finding myself
needing to lean back against the wall.  Just standing was becoming a difficult
task in itself and against my will, my legs gave out and I slid slowly down to
the floor.  My arms fell limp against my side, even my head felt heavy, so
heavy that when I heard the rustling of other bodies around me, I could not
look up.  I simply stared at my legs outstretched in front of me. I was aware
that several of them were standing around me, others moving about the dark
house.  There was no fear anymore, I could hardly feel anything.  One of them
bent down next to me and laid out several things beside her.  I somehow knew it
was a female even though I could not move and lift my head to see.  She took my
left arm in her hand and I watched as another hand handed her a syringe.  As
terrified of needles as I am, I wanted to cry out, but my mouth wouldn't
worked.  I watched in horror as the needle penetrated the back of my wrist.
Surprisingly there was no pain, not even a prick.  For some reason this
fascinated me.  I felt another hand on me, reaching for my hair.  The one who
had taken my blood, asked me if I was still taking the medicine.  This confused
me somewhat.  I couldn't remember taking anything, but strangely I tried to say
yes.  I couldn't open my mouth, but I heard her say "Good"

     There were a few more details of an intimate nature that S.W. did not wish
to reveal.  She woke up before the exam was complete.  She later examined her
wrist but saw no evidence of a needle insertion. Any comments?


--
John Hicks - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Budd Hopkins
Date: 29 Apr 92 06:56:35 GMT


    Budd Hopkins had a kidney problem that was corrected with surgery.  A
potentially difficult situation was caught in time and there are no residual
effects.  Everything is now all right and no other therapeutic regimins are
indicated.  We all held our breath and then breathed a sigh  of relief.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: KOA program
Date: 29 Apr 92 07:00:05 GMT


    Peggy, thank you for your kind words about my talk on the KOA program.  As
I remember, that show was on at 4:00 a.m. Denver time.  It was hard to imagine
that anybody would be listening at that time.  It was difficult enough for me
to get up at 6:00 a.m. to do the show.  The best thing about the show for me
was that Barber let me ramble on for much longer periods of time than do most
interviewers. Therefore, I could pick up a head of steam a little. Anyway,
thanks much.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: UFO Dream
Date: 3 May 92 03:40:00 GMT

Hi John,

What a frightening "dream!"  I would like to see David Jacob's comment
on realistic dreams, having had a few myself (but nothing as scary as
your friend, John).

Did she describe what parts of these creatures she DID see?  Did their
hands look human or otherwise.  Did she hear the creature speak with
her ears or in her head?

Keep us posted of further details, if possible.

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Bill Skiles)
Subject: Secret Life
Date: 2 May 92 21:05:00 GMT

David, I just finished reading Secret Life and wanted to say that you
did a good job in presenting the facts that you have gleaned from your
research. It did not appear that you were leading people toward any
direction of personal bais only presenting the facts. Good job. Now, I
want to ask you something.

If the guy that got drunk was able to resist the greys mind control
and dance around the room. Doesn't that suggest that some kind of
medication could help to resist these things?

What about learning hypnosis as a means of fighting their mind control,
would this help?

You said that you had little data on men that have been abducted after
having had vasectomy's but that women have been abducted even after
having had hystorectomy's. Just to give you one more little piece of
information. I have had numerous sightings (in the sky) since I was a
kid, and you know my most recent experience. I had a vasectomy 15 years
ago.

Finally, I noticed that you have a support group going for abductees,
what is available here in Central Florida?

I'm still hanging out here in no man's land.

Bill

--
Bill Skiles - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Abduction Detection
Date: 3 May 92 06:51:00 GMT


 >   Point well made.  But, how does such an object disappear?  Does
 > someone (or thing) remove it, or does it molecularly come apart?

  Not a clue, although I'd have a hard time with the molecular..er..dissolution
idea.

                                           jbh

--
John Hicks - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 61

                             Monday, May 11th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                         Re: KOA Weird Night appearance
                            Re: Secret Life - Questio
                               Re: Scott Corder Md
                                   Koa Program
                         Re: Koa Weird Night Appearance
                                  Re: UFO Dream

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Re: KOA Weird Night appearance
Date: 4 May 92 07:46:00 GMT


 -=> Quoting Peggy Noonan to David Jacobs <=-

 PN> 1) the missing people really are physically missing, based on
 PN> searches and family members reporting the missing to police...

I think I remember this being a very small percentage of the total
cases.  If you come across this section in Jacob's book then please
correct me if I'm wrong.  (I bet it is less than 10%.))

Thanks, John.

 .. Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence
--
John Powell - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Re: Secret Life - Questio
Date: 4 May 92 07:46:00 GMT


 -=> Quoting Linda Bird to John Powell <=-

 LB> I don't know why aliens would be afraid of a mess, unless they have
 LB> cleaned up a bunch of messes.

Well...  If (just suppose) it is the mind that is abducted and the
unattended body left behind.  Then rushing the abductee back to the body
prior to them wetting themselves would preserve the continuity of the
amnesia (or screen memory, or even actual memory).  On the other hand,
waking up with missing time is kind of a nothing thing compared to
waking up in a puddle!

 LB> I recall Budd Hopkins talking about mind abductions while I attended
 LB> the Pensacola MUFON Conference in July 1990.  While the aliens may be
 LB> playing mind games, for some it is all too real, so it seems.

I think next year's MUFON Convention is going to be in Virginia!  I'll
actually be able to attend.

The way I'm forcing myself to look at it right now is that it is perfectly
and completely real to be abucted in mind only.  (I'm assuming, for
purposes of debate with myself, that there actually is a 'thing' called
'mind' and that therefore a duality exists with respect to the
phenomenon of consciousness and the physical body.)  I also think it is
safe to say that most people, certainly myself included, are completely
unaware of this possible duality, completely unaware of the sensations
or perceptions associated with the possible experience of detaching the
'mind entity' from the 'body entity', and therefore (especially if the
detaching process was externally initiated) might not even know that all
subsequent perceptions and sensations were actually being filtered
through a mind-generated template of the physical body and not through
the physical central nervous system.

(That probably made absolutely no sense...<grin>  I'm having a hard time
articulating these thoughts...)

I think my last message was incomplete, think it got grunged in the
conversion from XRS to QWK...

Anyway, the stigmatic phenomenon [SP] is documented.  The phantom limb pain
phenomenon [PLPP] is documented.  So, with SP we have the mind's ability
to cause all number of odd physical effects on the body purely by
thought initiation, and with PLPP we have the documented mind-generated
template of a body.  So... ==> If _something_ is toying with the
template, but the mind isn't aware of that, perhaps it would kick in the
SP automatically thus creating some odd physical markings...

Maybe this helps explain why implants as of yet do not exist...  (It
would _easily_ explain the floating-thru-window and invisibility
problems...  Ditto for telepathy...)

This would completely change the meaning of the Staring Procedures as
described by Jacobs.

I don't necessarily believe this but I find it interesting...

Thanks, John.

 .. Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence
--
John Powell - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Re: Scott Corder Md
Date: 7 May 92 23:27:01 GMT

>anyone know? Anyway, Corder was among the strangest of the
>strange. I didn't know you wrote the OMNI article about him, I
>would have provided you with my Corder file, which is about an
>inch thick with correspondence from him, all showing one man's
>gradual descent into total insanity.

>The only good segment on that program was the abductions and
>the interview with Jacobs. Unfortunately, that was sandwiched
>between the Gulf Breeze lights and Corder. The Gulf Breeze
>lights are almost surely balloon-borne road flares. A Current
>having zero explanation, yet the first thing I thought of was
>"road flare." The things burned an incandescent, sparkly red
>for a while, then flashed white and winked out - EXACTLY what a
>road flare would do. Here's the unfortunate thing: A Current

Hi Jim,
Sorry to be so long sending a reply -- hubby has taken off work
and we've been going bonkers with redecorating (he does the outside,
I'm painting the inside ... making covers for furniture, getting rid
of about a boxcar load of packrat's junk [I'm the packrat so no one
else to blame but me] and so on.)
My Omni story on Corder never was published and I'm going to be
talking to the ed. about updating it, so I would indeed be very
interested in any file info you had on it if you'd still care to
share it.  May I reimburse you photocopy/postage fees?  I did talk
to the medical board guy about why they'd jerked his licence but off
the top of my head, I don't recall his reply...will have to check
the file for you.
Thanks for the great info!
And on the road flare UFOs, that's a pity.  At least they are
considering UFOs, but it's more mud on the image than clarity.
Thanks, again!
                ==Peggy
--
Peggy Noonan - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Koa Program
Date: 7 May 92 23:29:02 GMT

>    Peggy, thank you for your kind words about my talk on the
>KOA  program.  As I remember, that show was on at 4:00 a.m.
>Denver time.  It  was hard to imagine that anybody would be
>listening at that time.  It was  difficult enough for me to get
>up at 6:00 a.m. to do the show.  The best  thing about the show
>for me was that Barber let me ramble on for much  longer
>periods of time than do most interviewers.  Therefore, I could
>pick up a head of steam a little.  Anyway, thanks much.
> Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1

'ramble on'?  Only people who have little substantive to say
'ramble' -- your talk was absolutely fascinating.  I thoroughly
enjoyed all of it and wished it could last longer.  Perhaps Rick can
have you on the show again?
(BTW, that's one of the things I admire about the way he conducts
the program--he actually lets people ANSWER questions and explain
their positions, unlike many program hosts.)
Thank you, again, for such an enlightening presentation.
                        ==Peggy==
--
Peggy Noonan - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Re: Koa Weird Night Appearance
Date: 7 May 92 23:34:03 GMT

> -=> Quoting Peggy Noonan to David Jacobs <=-

> PN> 1) the missing people really are physically missing, based on
> PN> searches and family members reporting the missing to police...
>
>I think I remember this being a very small percentage of the total
>cases.  If you come across this section in Jacob's book then please
>correct me if I'm wrong.  (I bet it is less than 10%.))

You're probably right about the book's contents, John.  I haven't
read it yet (been tied up this week) and was only speaking from what
he'd said on the radio interview.  I hope I didn't give an incorrect
representation in my enthusiasm, but I meant to convey that this
aspect (the missing being actually gone) was something new to me
however I recall nothing about the *number* of such cases -- perhaps
I discarded that as I heard it or perhaps it wasn't part of that
context, I can't say for sure now but could check the tape of that
program if it would help.  I will be eager to read the book and *if*
I find anything to counter what you've mentioned, I'll pass it
along, however I'm sure you must be correct about the numbers (you
always are!) so I'll take your word for it.  It was just the unusual
aspect of the validity that intrigued me...
Thanks, John!
                ==Peggy==
--
Peggy Noonan - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Re: UFO Dream
Date: 5 May 92 21:42:00 GMT


 LB> Did she describe what parts of these creatures she DID see?

  I don't believe Lynn mentioned anything. I've asked her or her friend to
join us here.

                                        jbh

--
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 62

                            Saturday, May 16th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                             Re: Abduction Detection
                              TV movie "Intruders"
                               Re: JUST A MENTION

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Tom Davis)
Subject: Re: Abduction Detection
Date: 14 May 92 18:16:00 GMT


  It seems, then, that our need is for minute documentation.  It is,
for example, difficult to prove something existed once it has vanished.
 t would also be helpful to have more than just individual testimony as
to any and all attempts to remove (or to evaluate removing) such an
item.

--
Tom Davis - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: TV movie "Intruders"
Date: 15 May 92 05:19:00 GMT

Hello all,

I'm posting a bit of info our local TV guide gives about "Intruders:"

    Actress Mare Winningham, who stars in the CBS movie "Intruders"
(airing this coming Sunday P.M.), concedes that on first hearing, the
plot--about people who claim to be routinely abducted and experimented
on by aliens--sounded more that a little far out.

    Says Winningham, "It's not easy for people to make that leap from a
UFO sighting to who's manning the darn thing."

    In the weeks she spent researching her role (including interviewing
several abductees), the initially skeptical Winningham found her
opinion changing.  "I had to decide whether these people were psycho-
paths, but they were people of obvious integrity and credibility," says
Winningham, who now counts herself among the true believers.

Best,

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: JUST A MENTION
Date: 11 May 92 17:31:42 GMT

Oh I don't get upset, I just wanted you to know that something was,
something was, something was, something was... 8*)
--
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 63

                            Wednesday, May 27th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                Abduction Theory?
                                 Re: Traffic Jam
                                Re: Affect On Us
                              Re: Abduction Theory?
                                    New movie
                                    Intruders
                                    Abduction
                                  Re: Intruders
                                  Re: Intruders
                                     CUFOSJ
                              Re: Abduction Theory?
                                  Re: Intruders
                                Abduction Theory?
                                Re: I'm Baaack!!!
                                    Intruders

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Pony Godic)
Subject: Abduction Theory?
Date: 16 May 92 22:12:00 GMT


The following is not an attempt at an actualy theory, but does
attempt to make sense of abductions by making some observations and
asking some questions that may not have been asked before.

As far as I know, no-one has looked at abductions within the context
of the current status of this planet.  The world is suffering
political turmoil and, certainly, this is a variation on the theme
that has stretched throughout our recorded history and before.
Nevertheless, there are elements in the current world situation that
have never existed before.  These are overpopulation resulting in the
environmental pressures of forest clearing and pollution of the air,
water and soil.

In this context, is it possible that aliens are monitoring us to
determine the impact of such factors on our physical and
reproductive as well as mental health?

Perhaps abductees are subject to charade type manipulations when they
are taken for examination.  Perhaps the seeming clumsiness of the
medical exam and the medical instruments used are nothing more than a
blind behind which samples are nevertheless taken and an ongoing
evaluation made.  If the subject should recall the abduction, then
their memories of cumbersome intruments and confusing alien
procedures would be considered implausible and so other explanations
would be sought.

Implants may seem the most unbelievable aspect of abductions, but
perhaps the implant the subject is shown, often theatrically, and
what is actually implanted are very different.  Surely, if an alien
race are sophisticated enough to cross space and get here, they are
sophisticated enough to have a very sound knowledge of our
technology. In old sci fi movies, knowledge of our language,
technology and social structure were explained rather quaintly by
alien intercepton of our radio and television transmissions.  Today,
I don't think it implausible to suggest the possibility of aliens
tapping into our computer networks.  If this is happening on an
ongoing basis, then aliens would know everything from the individual
defence status of each nation, to the current level of our medical
technology.  Armed with such knowledge, it may be possible to
implant sampling devices that could not be traced by our current
level of technology.

I draw your attention to nasal implants.  If you were interested in
determining the types and levels of impurities that we were inhaling
and measuring their impact on our physical health, then a nasal
implant would be the medium.  Of course, other implant sites occur,
but with the application of the above reasoning, they may all be
explainable.

If aliens are monitoring us in relation to the degredation of our
world environment, then they must have onworld bases.  I don't think
it implausible, when discussing something as wild as this, to suggest
that our deepest oceans would provide excellent sites.  On land,
there are deserts and both the poles. But, to move from place to
place, alien space ships would have to be invisible in all senses.
(Certain sightings do involve seemingly miraculous appearances and
disappearances.)  If aliens have the technology to get here, then
they may have the technology to render themselves invisible.

Assuming alien bases exist, and that our computer networks are
monitored from them, then surely aliens would possess very sound
knowledge on us.

But why?

Well, perhaps they are simply documenting our decline with the same
philosophical resignation as we document the decline of individual
species here on Earth.  Perhaps they are interested in whether the
pollution here is resulting in a downgrading in our fertility.  Or
perhaps they are interested in what reproductive mutations it will
lead to.  Perhaps abductees are not shown human/alien hybrids, but
reproductive experiments using mutated reproductive cells from male
and female humans.

One thing that would be explained by all of the above is the
phenomena of repeater abductees.  If you are monitoring, then you
would take individuals and examine them periodically.  If you wished
to determine the psychological impact of the decline of mother Earth
on humans, then perhaps you would show replays of fictional
catastrophies, relating that they were the result of
shortsightedness.

Of course, if we are being monitored, then maybe it's not entirely
dispassionate.  Perhaps the aliens are trying to determine whether or
when they would intervene.

I'm not saying that I believe any of the above and certainly realize
that all I'm doing is exercising my imagination and stretching your
credibility. Nevertheless, the above would fit the "facts" and, in
the spirit of intelligent debate, I invite discussion.

--
Pony Godic - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hrusovszky)
Subject: Re: Traffic Jam
Date: 15 May 92 03:40:00 GMT


 JW> When you log on next just select the Odyssey UFO Database; they're
 JW> stored in there.  Got about 50 of the 400+ re-entered.

Jer, would it be possible to put the new sightings for the UFO database
into a special file that TIC could send to me on a weekly basis?
Entering them in a message area will not allow me to add them to my
listing.
And, the first time, I would just as soon download the whole thing to
make sure I am not missing any.

THanks in advance.


--jah

... Turn Your 386 into an XT ... Use Windows!

--
John Hrusovszky - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Abduction Theory?
Date: 17 May 92 15:11:00 GMT

In a message to All <05-16-92 15:12> Pony Godic wrote:

PG>  Perhaps abductees are subject to charade type manipulations when they
PG>  are taken for examination.  Perhaps the seeming clumsiness of the
PG>  medical exam and the medical instruments used are nothing more than a
PG>  blind behind which samples are nevertheless taken and an ongoing
PG>  evaluation made.  If the subject should recall the abduction, then
PG>  their memories of cumbersome intruments and confusing alien
PG>  procedures would be considered implausible and so other explanations
PG>  would be sought.

That's something I've believed for a long time. If I were investigating a
planet, and I was under strict orders not to make myself known or interfere
with its development, AND I knew I had to potchkey somewhat with the
natives, AND I knew I couldn't completely erase their memory of the
experience, I would do the next best thing: flood them with disinformation.
Create a scenario in their minds that was so implausible that when they got
around to telling their story to the masses, no one would believe them. I
think the entire genetic engineering charade is just that - an intricate
mask for their real purposes. What those are, I wouldn't even presume to
guess.

Jim

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: bcstec.ca.boeing.com!kuryakin
Subject: New movie
Date: 21 May 92 23:16:29 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)

I'll apologise in advance if this doesn't pan out, but it seems like
there might be enough story here to make the topic...

For the last two weeks they (20th Century Fox) have been filming a
Kiefer Sutherland/Jeff&Beau Bridges movie called Vanishings.

Don't know much about the plot other than it deals with a
Gas Station/Food Mart of the _Titan_ chain and the disappearence of
a man's wife and son.  The vague things I hear are that Jeff Bridges is
the bad guy, Kiefer Sutherland is the good guy and his wife and son are
kidnapped somehow.  One scene has the wife/son walking out of the store
with Kiefer about 10 seconds behind.  When he looks up, even though they
are directly in front of him, he is unable to see them.

So the nutshell is there may be some connection to UFO abductions, though
the manner in which they attempt an explanation seems to be one of those
wild tangents that Movie Moguls like to take.

The movie is apparently scheduled for a Jan 93 release.

Rick Pavek
[e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Intruders
Date: 21 May 92 13:56:00 GMT

So....

What'd y'all think of Intruders? I thought it was excellent, perhaps the
best fictional vehicle for informing the public on this issue that's ever
come along. I was leary of the fact that it had been fictionalized, but
Tracy and his collaborator did an excellent job. I was very impressed with
the no-nonsense tenor of the production, and I think the message of "THIS
IS A GENUINE PROBLEM" came through loud and clear. Something tells me the
impact of this mini-series will be far greater than that of the movie
"Communion" (which is as it should be).

Jim

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Ray Maurer)
Subject: Abduction
Date: 21 May 92 22:58:00 GMT

I am working with a young female abductee who is scared to death to go
to sleep at night. Has anyone come accross a method of stopping an
abduction? Or does anyone have a suggestion on what I should tell her
to calm her down. She is at that age (23) when the abductions are
coming fairly frequently. Advise is welcome. Thanks    Ray

--
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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Intruders
Date: 22 May 92 02:08:00 GMT

Hi Jim,

I was intrigued by the part where the scientist talked about the nasal
implant and its characteristics.  Any truth to any of that?  i was not
aware
that an implant had been found and studied.

Thanks,

Linda

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From: [e-mail] (Ralph Toscano)
Subject: Re: Intruders
Date: 22 May 92 22:54:00 GMT

Hi Jim:

On the whole I thought the mini series was well done. However, the
ending was sort of "corny"... "Somewhere out there is my niece"...
gimme a break!... I felt strong anti-government overtones... perhaps
this will lead people to the realization that something IS going on
here!... Let's hope that the rumors of an Oliver Stone UFO flick are
legit!!....

Best Regards - Ralph

--
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From: [e-mail] (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: CUFOSJ
Date: 22 May 92 06:46:00 GMT


 > am pleased to see someone has finally done the necessary
 > research instead of dismissing the testable hypothesis out of
 > hand. If a thorough investigation now shows that FPP is not the
 > broad answer, although they allow it is strongly suggested as
 > the answer for some abductions, I am now ready to move on to

Keith,

I think you should be congratulated on all the research you have been
doing on the FFP. Even if it is "NOT the broad answer" to all
abductions, there is definitely something in it - I don't think FFP
should be simply dismissed as "non starter". This is non-scientific
and reminds me of a number of individuals, I had spoken to in the
past, (some of them  were scientist, doctors etc.) and who perhaps
read only one (probably the worst kind) book on UFOs and said  "there
is nothing in it - UFOs are a bunch of nonsence".

I have had oportunity to interview people, some of them simply
reporting a UFO sighting, whose imagination (and FFP) was working
overtime. Actually I used to know a few "regulars" who would call me
at least once a month and report more UFO sightings. I even knew a
"UFO researcher" who had at least 3 or 4 UFO sightings a day. If this
is not FFP I don't know what is it.

--
Vladimir Godic - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Pony Godic)
Subject: Re: Abduction Theory?
Date: 24 May 92 03:01:00 GMT


  PG>  their memories of cumbersome intruments and confusing alien
  PG>  procedures would be considered implausible and so other explanations
  PG>  would be sought.


 > I had to potchkey somewhat with the natives, AND I knew I
 > couldn't completely erase their memory of the experience, I
 > would do the next best thing: flood them with disinformation.
 > Create a scenario in their minds that was so implausible that
 > when they got around to telling their story to the masses, no
 > one would believe them. I think the entire genetic engineering
 > charade is just that - an intricate mask for their real
 > purposes. What those are, I wouldn't even presume to guess.

Thanks for your reply Jim, I agree with you.  Sometimes I wonder if
we're really being coaxed and prodded towards a particular objective.
Originally we were teased intellectually by UFO flaps, now we're
being teased by an abduction flap.  I can't help feeling that what is
remembered may be accidentally on purpose.  Consequently, I wonder if
this is all a big intelligence test.  If that's so, then we've got
all the pieces we just haven't figured out how to put them together.
Of course, I say this in the spirit of debate.  I honestly, have no
idea what's going on, but it sure is titilating.   I suppose the one
thing that can be said for certain is that if you are going to go to
the trouble of crossing X number of light years of space, you'd have
to be coming here for something very important.  Of course, the
interest may be purely clinical, e.g. documenting our demise.

Cheers
Pony

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From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Intruders
Date: 24 May 92 17:10:00 GMT

-THE- Ralph Toscano? Where have YOU been hiding?

As to the ending being corny, well, sometimes corny is appropriate...
Yes, an Oliver Stone flick would be just the thing, but I don't think we're
going to hear anything about it until the dust settles from "JFK". I
wouldn't want him to scuttle his credibility prematurely. Certainly an event
of that type is needed, though, in fact it may be the ONLY thing that can
light a fire under people at this point.

Good to hear from you again.

Jim

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From: [e-mail] (Richard Salts)
Subject: Abduction Theory?
Date: 27 May 92 06:11:05 GMT

Hello Pony!

16 May 92, Pony Godic writes to All:


 PG> The following is not an attempt at an actualy theory, but does attempt to
 PG> make sense of abductions by making some observations and asking some
 PG> questions that may not have been asked before.

 PG> As far as I know, no-one has looked at abductions within the context of
 PG> the current status of this planet.  The world is suffering political
 PG> turmoil and, certainly, this is a variation on the theme that has
 PG> stretched throughout our recorded history and before. Nevertheless, there
 PG> are elements in the current world situation that have never existed
 PG> before. These are overpopulation resulting in the environmental pressures
 PG> of forest clearing and pollution of the air, water and soil.

 PG> In this context, is it possible that aliens are monitoring us to determine
 PG> the impact of such factors on our physical and reproductive as well as
 PG> mental health?

 PG> Perhaps abductees are subject to charade type manipulations when they are
 PG> taken for examination.  Perhaps the seeming clumsiness of the medical exam
 PG> and the medical instruments used are nothing more than a blind behind
 PG> which samples are nevertheless taken and an ongoing evaluation made.  If
 PG> the subject should recall the abduction, then their memories of cumbersome
 PG> intruments and confusing alien procedures would be considered implausible
 PG> and so other explanations would be sought.

 PG> Implants may seem the most unbelievable aspect of abductions, but perhaps
 PG> the implant the subject is shown, often theatrically, and what is actually
 PG> implanted are very different.  Surely, if an alien race are sophisticated
 PG> enough to cross space and get here, they are sophisticated enough to have
 PG> a very sound knowledge of our technology. In old sci fi movies, knowledge
 PG> of our language, technology and social structure were explained
 PG> rather quaintly by alien intercepton of our radio and television
 PG> transmissions. Today, I don't think it implausible to suggest the
 PG> possibility of aliens tapping into our computer networks.  If this is
 PG> happening on an ongoing basis, then aliens would know everything from the
 PG> individual defence status of each nation, to the current level of our
 PG> medical technology.  Armed with such knowledge, it may be possible to
 PG> implant sampling devices that could not be traced by our current level of
 PG> technology.

 PG> I draw your attention to nasal implants.  If you were interested in
 PG> determining the types and levels of impurities that we were inhaling and
 PG> measuring their impact on our physical health, then a nasal implant would
 PG> be the medium.  Of course, other implant sites occur, but with the
 PG> application of the above reasoning, they may all be explainable.

 PG> If aliens are monitoring us in relation to the degredation of our world
 PG> environment, then they must have onworld bases.  I don't think it
 PG> implausible, when discussing something as wild as this, to suggest that
 PG> our deepest oceans would provide excellent sites.  On land, there are
 PG> deserts and both the poles. But, to move from place to place, alien space
 PG> ships would have to be invisible in all senses. (Certain sightings do
 PG> involve seemingly miraculous appearances and disappearances.)  If aliens
 PG> have the technology to get here, then they may have the technology to
 PG> render themselves invisible.

 PG> Assuming alien bases exist, and that our computer networks are monitored
 PG> from them, then surely aliens would possess very sound knowledge on us.

 PG> But why?

 PG> Well, perhaps they are simply documenting our decline with the same
 PG> philosophical resignation as we document the decline of individual species
 PG> here on Earth.  Perhaps they are interested in whether the pollution here
 PG> is resulting in a downgrading in our fertility.  Or perhaps they are
 PG> interested in what reproductive mutations it will lead to.  Perhaps
 PG> abductees are not shown human/alien hybrids, but reproductive experiments
 PG> using mutated reproductive cells from male and female humans.

 PG> One thing that would be explained by all of the above is the phenomena of
 PG> repeater abductees.  If you are monitoring, then you would take
 PG> individuals and examine them periodically.  If you wished to determine the
 PG> psychological impact of the decline of mother Earth on humans, then
 PG> perhaps you would show replays of fictional catastrophies, relating that
 PG> they were the result of shortsightedness.

 PG> Of course, if we are being monitored, then maybe it's not entirely
 PG> dispassionate.  Perhaps the aliens are trying to determine whether or when
 PG> they would intervene.

 PG> I'm not saying that I believe any of the above and certainly realize that
 PG> all I'm doing is exercising my imagination and stretching your
 PG> credibility. Nevertheless, the above would fit the "facts" and, in the
 PG> spirit of intelligent debate, I invite discussion.

Hi, Pony,

I'm new to Paranet and I have a thought or two on your subject.  I am writing
this late at night so I'll be brief.

Contrary to "stretching my credibility", I LOVE to talk about wild things!
They stretch my mind and I enjoy that!

My theory: I believe THEY are using this earth and us humans as a resource
center for THEIR own needs.  THEY have no wish to contact us directly and
publicly for reasons that I'll say just now are obvious.  I can talk later on
those if there is interest.  THEY may have certain biological problems (as per
Hopkins' researches) that THEY need us for without disturbing our culture with
knowledge of THEIR presence.

Best regards,

Richard

--
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From: [e-mail] (Ralph Toscano)
Subject: Re: I'm Baaack!!!
Date: 26 May 92 19:10:00 GMT

Hi Jim;

Yes, I'm back... I needed to get away from this UFO thing for
awhile...after my experiences with Lear and then the stuff with Moore,
I was about to "lose it".... We'll have to chat about this stuff
privately sometime... I hope all is well with you..resturaunt..your
book,(still writing one I hope)?... I've been getting involved with the
abduction phenomena lately... lots of credible folks out there, pretty
scary stuff... Hope we can chat soon.

Best Regards - Ralph ("THE")

--
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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Intruders
Date: 17 May 92 22:46:00 GMT

Hi Linda, thanks for posting that piece on the TV movie "Intruders."
I wonder what impact this is going to have? We will wait and see.

--
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 64

                             Tuesday, June 2nd 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                Abduction Theory?
                                    Abduction
                                   Back again
                                   Malpractice
                                  Mind control
                                Missing abductees
                                  Re: Intruders
                                Abduction Theory?
                                 Re: Back again
                                   PHYSICALITY
                                  PHYSICALITY 2
                                  PHYSICALITY 3
                                  PHYSICALITY 4
                                  PHYSICALITY 5
                          Australian Abduction Research
                                Abduction Theory?
                              Re: Abduction Theory?
                                  Mind control

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From: [e-mail] (Marc Michalik)
Subject: Abduction Theory?
Date: 27 May 92 19:47:00 GMT

That is possible.  However, I have alsways believed that the aliens
we see are "scientists".  I think they found us here thousands of
years ago and were interested because we are obviously a close
relation to them.  Just as if we were to find a planet of simians.
I think it possible that they interbreeded with the neanderthal man
that they found here and that they are the missing link.  Or, they
may be highly advanced humans who just as far above us on the
evolutionary scal as we are above apes.  Then again, there are
countless more plausable explanations.
--
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Skiles)
Subject: Abduction
Date: 24 May 92 08:03:00 GMT

> I am working with a young female abductee who is
> scared to death to go to sleep at night. Has anyone
> come accross a method of stopping an abduction? Or
> does anyone have a suggestion on what I should tell
> her to calm her down. She is at that age (23) when the
> abductions are coming fairly frequently. Advise is
> welcome. Thanks    Ray

Ray, whatever you do don't forget about her and just leave her out there in
left field. Don't get too busy. I tried to get some assistance awhile back and
I'm still waiting. Keep in touch with her, let her talk it out as much as she
needs to. Also, I found that having a light on and other people around helps.
Yes, I know, it doesn't stop them but at least it makes it possible to fall
asleep. If you find a way to stop them, PLEASE let me know.      Bill

--
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From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Back again
Date: 27 May 92 06:58:24 GMT


    I'd like to say hello to everyone after another long departure.  I am
hoping that the incredible media whirl might now be lessening and I can  go
back to my abduction work.  I'll try to answer a few of the inquiries  that I
have received but once again I am not sure that I can get to them  all.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


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From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Malpractice
Date: 27 May 92 07:06:36 GMT


    The most important thing that guards against malpractice is the fact that
I do not charge for any of my services.  When money changes hands, expectations
rise and the pressure is on.  Without a fee, my life may be a bit more
impoverished, but it is also more relaxed about what I can and cannot
accomplish.   Also, I have all the people who come to me sign a  release
allowing me to use any information that they might impart to me  as long as I
do no disclose their identity.  The release also absolves me  of any
responsibility in the event that they become psychologically  disturbed.
     Working with a therapist also helps. If the abductee is having great
difficulties coming to terms with the phenomenon, I supply them with the name
of an excellent psychologist who works with abductees.  So far I  have not had
any problem with malpractice and so forth, but one has to  remember that the
abductee population can be somewhat more volatile than  the average population
and one must be prepared for anything.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
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From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Mind control
Date: 27 May 92 07:15:41 GMT


    Bill, I still have to send you my questionnaire.   Hang in there,  I'll do
it.  Your comments about alcohol and resisting mind control are  something that
we have thought about but we really don't know if that is  a sure-fire method
of resistance.  I feel certain that others who have  been drunk have been
abducted and the routine procedures are performed  upon them without
difficulties.  I am not really sure if any medication  or drugs would interfere
with the abduction scenario but it is definitely  something that must be looked
into.  The problem is even if we find that  drugs of some sort will prevent
abductions, then what?  Should the  abductee walk around all day being drugged
just in case an abduction  should occur?  This is a difficult area to think
about, but we must start  thinking along these lines to see what can and
cannot work.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


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From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Missing abductees
Date: 27 May 92 07:20:10 GMT


    John, to follow up on the discussion about abductees being missing  during
an abduction event.  To the best of my knowledge we do not have a  single case
anywhere, anytime, of an abductee being physically in a  normal place while an
abduction event is ongoing.  Keith Basterfield has  said that he has two cases
of this happening, but my discussion with him  about this and my research into
one of his cases suggests that he is in  error on both accounts.  Therefore I
can say with a certain degree of  confidence that the percentage of abductees
who are missing is 100%.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Intruders
Date: 29 May 92 05:40:19 GMT

Hi Keith,

In reply to your question:

*** Quoting Keith Basterfield to Linda Bird ***

KB> Hi Linda, thanks for posting that piece on the TV movie
KB> "Intruders."
KB> I wonder what impact this is going to have? We will wait and see.
KB>
KB> --- FD 1.99c
KB>  * Origin: UFO Research Australia, Research Officer,

    There hasn't been much comment or discussion on the BBS's on the movie
"Intruders."  I personally have mixed feelings about it.  I thought the
Aliens themselves looked slimy and rubbery.  The final scene with the alien
telling the mother that "Now you will believe" or something like that was a
bit contrived and the alien was too compassionate.  Anyone reading the
literature on abductions will not find compassionate aliens (for 99% of the
cases).
      I did tape the whole 4 hour program (and zapped commercials!)  I should
probably view it again ....
       It was a good intro for those just finding out about this subject.  My
pharmacist said it "scared the hell" out of him; then he turned around and
begged to borrow all the tapes I have made or bought!  Go figure!     :-)

Best always,

Linda


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From: [e-mail] (Pony Godic)
Subject: Abduction Theory?
Date: 31 May 92 01:28:00 GMT


 > My theory: I believe THEY are using this earth and us humans as
 > a resource center for THEIR own needs.  THEY have no wish to
 > contact us directly and publicly for reasons that I'll say just
 > now are obvious.  I can talk later on those if there is
 > interest.  THEY may have certain biological problems (as per
 > Hopkins' researches) that THEY need us for without disturbing
 > our culture with knowledge of THEIR presence.

Hullo Richard,
Thanks for your reply.  Please feel free to elaborate
on what you said.  Firstly, what sort of resource centre do you
believe us to be and what do you believe the aliens' needs are?
Secondly, please fill me in with regards to why the aliens do not wish
to contact us directly and/or publicly, I'm afraid what is obvious to
you isn't obvious to me.  Granted they may have biological needs and
be using us in this regard, but given the current state of our medical
technology - i.e. IVF, genetic engineering re attempts to eliminate inherited
diseases etc. I tend to feel that aliens who are so advanced that they
can cross however many light years they cross to get here would be
advanced enough not to need us as a genetic resource be it for breeding
with a view to revitalising themselves physically or otherwise.
Personally, I tend to feel that they are interested in us in much
broader terms, but then I've never experienced abduction so this is an
observers viewpoint.  Anyway, nice talking to you.
Cheers, Pony.

--
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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Back again
Date: 31 May 92 06:15:00 GMT

HI David,

Some of here in Arizona are wondering if you are planning to attend
the July MUFON conf. in Albuquerque.  We'd sure like to meet you.

Kind regards,

Linda Bird


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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: PHYSICALITY
Date: 1 Jun 92 00:24:00 GMT

David, in preparation for the forthcoming conference I have been
carefully reviewing my Australian abduction case notes, as well as my
extensive literature base on the subject.

On the question of whether there have been any known instances where
an abductee was observed to be physically present whilst an abduction
was reportedly occurring, I believe there are actually at least 3 to
be considered.

1. The first is reported in the English Flying Saucer Review Special
Issue Number 3 of Sept 1969 pp36-37 in an article by  H S W Chibbett
titled: "UFOs and Parapsychology." It originally was published in
"The Australian Saucer Record" Vol 1 No 4 in 1955.

In 1955, in Adelaide, South Australia, a 10 year old girl, under
hypnosis for therapy for a slight nervous disorder, spontaneously
reported that she was now in a "flying saucer." She went on to give a
detailed description of a trip to another planet. "She described the
landing, the people, and a kind of city-all as though it were
actually happening, and she were merely describing what she saw." To
her, the event was "real."  This case meets all four of the criteria
of the CUFOS Abduction Study definition of an abduction.

Next message.

--
Keith Basterfield - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: PHYSICALITY 2
Date: 31 May 92 23:59:00 GMT

Part 2:-

2.
The second case is that of Maureen Puddy. Now that I have had time to
go back over my detailed notes and tape recordings, from 1972, it too
meets all four criteria of the CUFOS definition.  A full account of
this case has been submitted for publication. The abduction account
needs to be set in the context of multiple events which occurred to
Maureen. A potted summary follows:-

3/7/72 9.15 p.m. driving alone Puddy sights large UFO at close range.
Stops to watch it, then reports it to Police and Air Force.
25/7/72
9.15 p.m. driving alone when UFO appears. Car stops by itself. Sound
drains from air. Message passed to her. Object leaves. She again
reports it to Police and RAAF. Independent witnesses see unusual
lights in the area. 22/2/73 daytime. Feels eerie prescence at home.
Contacts 2 UFO researchers- arranges to meet them at scene of UFO
encounters of 1972. On way to scene entity appears in car-she nearly
crashes car. At scene 2 UFO researchers join her. She suddenly sees
entity outside, they see nothing. Entity beckons Maureen to join him.
She refuses, then "faints." While in faint, in presence of 2
researchers, she describes being in a round room somewhere. Lit, but
no sign of source of illumination. Entity appears and communicates
with her. She panics as there is no doors or windows in "room." Comes
to in car, crying, saying she cannot remember anything of what had
just transpired during "faint." In this instance, before the subject
of abductions was known to any wide degree in Australia, a witness of
impeccable character, totally perplexed by the episodes, was
apaprently subjected to an escalating sequence of events terminating
in what is by definition, an abduction. This abduction event was
absolutely "real" to Puddy.
Next message.
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: PHYSICALITY 3
Date: 1 Jun 92 00:12:00 GMT

Part 3:-

3. The third case is that of Gaynor Sunderland, June 1979, as
described by Jenny Randles and Paul Whetnall in their study of the
case, a book called "Alien Contact" London. Coronet. 1983. Again, the
abduction related below is set in a complex series of events,
including daylight CE3 observations and other episodes,involving
several members of the Sunderland family. A brief summary is that
Gaynor went to bed at 8.30 p.m. She was still awake at 10.15 p.m.
when her mother looked in. After her mother left she felt dizzy. A
long, dark tunnel appeared along which she was swept. The tunnel
vanished and she was now in strange surroundings, with 2 aliens
present. Communication between the aliens and Gaynor ensued. She was
later instantly transported to another location-an alien city. She
was shown around and they told her: "We are from another time or
dimension. In the future many of us will come and try to live in
peace with you on earth." She was transported, via tunnel back to
bed, where she went to sleep about 11.45 p.m. and did not wake till
the next morning. However, and most importantly to note, Gaynor's
mother went into Gaynor's bedroom at 11.20 p.m., during the
abduction. Gaynor was asleep, on her back, rigid, lying perfectly flat, like a
corpse, breathing very deeply and slowly. Gaynor's mother returned at
12.30 a.m. and she went to check Gaynor. Gaynor was still fast
asleep, but now in her usual sleeping style, not rigid etc as before.
Gaynor's abduction would meet all four of the CUFOS criteria for an
abduction.
Next message.
--
Keith Basterfield - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: PHYSICALITY 4
Date: 1 Jun 92 00:20:00 GMT

Part 4:-
In my Australian abduction first hand investigations, and my
extensive reading and correspondence with abductees here and
overseas, there are 3 categories of events: (1) single witness, (2)
multiple witness, (3) abductions with independent witnesses. By far
and away the majority of global abductions are of category 1 and 2,
with very few in 3. Most of the time, abductees, cannot show by
independent witnesses, that they were physically absent from their
normal locality. I therefore think it very unwise for us to be making
statements to the effect that "...abductees are NEVER physically in
place..." or "Researchers have not collected a SINGLE case..." (my
emphasis). Someone only has to demonstarte the existence of ONE case
to negate the statement, and our credibility falls. Best to say that
"some" cases are known where independent witnesses can state that the
individual was not where they were supposed to be during the reported
abduction. Even then, simply because a person isn't where they were
supposed to be doesn't prove they were abducted, merely missing. A
hoaxer, for example,would clearly ensure they were physically absent
from their normal place.
Next message.
--
Keith Basterfield - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: PHYSICALITY 5
Date: 1 Jun 92 00:31:00 GMT

Thank you for the opportunity of exchanging views with you on Paranet.
I look forward to meeting you in person next month, which should give
us all plenty of time for comparing data on this challenging enigma.
Regards, Keith.

--
Keith Basterfield - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: Australian Abduction Research
Date: 1 Jun 92 00:40:00 GMT


I would like to make a few comments relating to David Jacobs' remarks
about Keith Basterfield and his research into Australian Abductions.

1. FPP - "non starter"  (mentioned at least two times on Paranet/Abduct)

2. I quote from a recent Paranet message in ABDUCT echo:

>From David Jacobs to John Powell:

" John, to follow up on the discussion  about
abductees being missing during and abduction event. To the best of
my knowledge we do not have a single case anywhere, anytime, of an
abductee being physically in a normal place while an abduction event
is ongoing. Keith Basterfield has said he has two cases of this happening,
but my discussion with him about this and my research into one of these
cases suggests he is in error on both accounts.
Therefore I can say with a certain degree of confidence that the
percentage of abductees who are missing is 100%."

WRONG ON BOTH ACCOUNTS!

But before I go on any further, I would like to say a few things
about Keith Basterfield's research into abductions and UFOs in
general.

Keith and I have been working together for nearly twenty years. I am
no longer involved in full time research because of my other duties
associated with UFORA. We used to investigate reports together and
separately for many years. Keith is very thorough and conscientious researcher. He
always documents and publishes his research findings in various UFORA
case files and documents and overseas journals.  Our files and documents are available
freely to any bona fide UFO researcher.

Although Keith is interested in psychological aspects of UFO
research, I have never known him to knock back a good "nuts and bolts
case". In my opinion this is what scientific research is all about.
He is always willing to listen to and learn from other reliable
researchers.

Without going into further details, I would like to get back to the
original issue(s).

1. FFP - "non starter". A few days ago, I posted a message relating
to my research (and Keith's, of course)  experience in dealing with
FPP so there is no need to elaborate on this particular subject other
than to say  that it applies equally to abductions and "nuts and
bolts" cases.  I am afraid I cannot accept a simple "non starter"
statement because it basically means that we are not capable of
researching and this puts us in a category of inexperienced
beginners.


2. ABDUCTEES  BEING MISSING DURING AN ABDUCTIONS.

For those of you who don't know, or haven't heard, of Maureen Puddy's
encounter, (here in Australia) this is a brief resume of Maureen's
abduction experience.

Maureen Puddy, (then - in 1972) a 37 old housewife, of Rye in
Victoria, was driving near the railway crossing between Frankston and
Dromana, some 60km south-east of Melbourne, Victoria. At about 9:15
p.m., just after passing over the railway crossing, the roadway was
lit by a blue light. Thinking that the light was coming from a
helicopter, she did not take too much notice, even though later she
recalled hearing no noise at all.

Realising that even though it may have been a helicopter, she
accelerated away trying to get away out of blue light. She then
slowed down, thinking that the pilot was trying to get her attention.
The light stopped with her. Shielding her eyes against the light, she
looked up to see an unusual object. It was shaped like two saucers
stuck together.

Mrs Puddy then drove to the nearby Rosebud police station and
reported the event.

Later on, after a number of other incidents e.g voices calling her etc.,
(please note : I am leaving a lot of material out simply because I want to come
to the most important event)  she telephoned the Victorian UFO
Research Society and two members agreed to meet her at the spot where
(previously) her car had stopped all of its own accord. Arriving at
the nominated spot, all 3 people then sat in Maureen's car. Suddenly
she saw the same (who appeared to her before) "man" had appeared just
outside the vehicle. Neither of the other 2 could see anything
unusual present. Suddenly, according to the others present, Maureen
"fainted". She related that she was in a round room somewhere which
was lit, but there was no visible source of illumination. The "man"
just appeared in the room, in which there was also a mushroom shaped
object rising up from the floor. .The "man" told her to describe what
she could see, and this she did, to be heard by the 2 in the car. She
could see no doors or windows in this room and so began to be scared.
She started to cry and then woke up, still in the car, with tears in
her eyes, saying she could not remember anything that had just
occurred. The 2 in the car filled her in on what had just transpired.

According to the 2 people present, Maureen never left the presence of
UFO researchers during the abductions.

Maureen remained adamant that the whole thing was "real".

If you wish a document on Maureen Puddy's experience it is available
from UFORA for the cost of postage and copying. Please contact me on
Paranet.
-------------------------------------------------------

Case Number 2.

Equally as importantly is the case of Gaynor Sunderland as documented
in Jenny Randles & Paul Whetnall  "Alien Contact", 1983. London.
Coronet Books.

Gaynor went to bed at 8:30 p.m.  At 10:15 p.m. her mother looked in
and found her still awake. After her mother left she was dizzy, and
she saw a long, dark tunnel. She went through the tunnel to a place
at the other end. There were 2 aliens there. It was "as real as real"
to her - no dream like qualities. The aliens spoke to to Gaynor in
faultless English. She was then taken to an alien city where
knowledge was given to her. Suddenly the dizzines returned and she
returned via the tunnel. She found herself back in bed awake. The
time was now estimated to be at 11:45 p.m. She went to sleep. Her
mother stated that at 11:20 p.m. she had gone in to see Gaynor and
found her fast asleep, all curled up on the bed.

I rest my case.

--
Vladimir Godic - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Richard Salts)
Subject: Abduction Theory?
Date: 1 Jun 92 03:20:01 GMT

Hello Pony!

Saturday May 30 1992, Pony Godic writes to Richard Salts:


 >> My theory: I believe THEY are using this earth and us humans as
 >> a resource center for THEIR own needs.  THEY have no wish to
 >> contact us directly and publicly for reasons that I'll say just
 >> now are obvious.  I can talk later on those if there is
 >> interest.  THEY may have certain biological problems (as per
 >> Hopkins' researches) that THEY need us for without disturbing
 >> our culture with knowledge of THEIR presence.

 PG> Hullo Richard,
 PG> Thanks for your reply.  Please feel free to elaborate
 PG> on what you said.  Firstly, what sort of resource centre do you believe us
 PG> to be and what do you believe the aliens' needs are?

I believe us to be a biological gene pool that they may need to probably
revitalize themselves.  That may be only one purpose but racial survival is a
pretty powerful motive that would impel them to travel as far as necessary, to
be able to improve their stock, if they have the means to make the trip.
Also . . . .

Ann Druffel and the late D. Scott Rogo in their book, "The Tujunga Canyon
Contacts" investigated the case of some young women who were 'examined' by
beings who also wanted to have them and train them for work (!), if I remember
correctly from the book, apparently the 'beings' needed some (human) labor!
If that had been me, I might have jumped at the chance but the women didn't
want to and eventually the 'beings' left.  I offhand wonder as I write this how
many abductions go beyond the medical exam and gene tapping . . . . if some of
these beings may be able to get long-term 'relationships' going with some
selected humans and how many of these 'relationships' get to the attention of
qualified investigators and whether these investigators would even take such
accounts seriously even if the human half would come forward to them to say
what happened . . . . The UFO community was split about taking abductions
seriously at one time.

We may be a much younger and biologically more vital species than these beings
might themselves be and that may be why they are here . . . perhaps.  Much of
this theorizing of mine is based on Budd Hopkins book, "Intruders", the
chapter, Summing Up where a psychologist was taken on board a 'craft' and the
occupants in this case were much more communicative and than are most other
abduction cases we hear about and 'told' and showed this psychologist a lot of
things about themselves and their purpose here.  Hopkins, however, related only
the barest outlines of this case as, in the chapter, he refused to publish
everything so as to give other confirming evidence a chance to surface.

 PG>  Secondly, please fill
 PG> me in with regards to why the aliens do not wish to contact us directly
 PG> and/or publicly, I'm afraid what is obvious to you isn't obvious to me.

Understood.  I was typing my message very late at night, past my bedtime, in
fact, so I chose not to expound on that theme at that time.  However . . . .

The impact on given peoples of cultural contact,(or cultural collision) has
long been recorded and talked about in other materials and the ultimate result
is that, in human history at least, any contact between a technically
'advanced' civilization and one deemed 'less' advanced has invariably meant
doom to the 'less advanced' culture.  A case in point is the controversy in the
States as to how Christopher Columbus should be remembered; as a saint or devil
in the way native 'new world' cultures were treated by the European explorers
subsequent to Columbus' discoveries.

Now here come the UFO's.  Are they alien spaceships?  Some evidence might
strongly point in that direction, depending on who is asked that question. The
fact remains that, if some of these 'unknowns' ARE such things, then for the
FIRST time, perhaps in history, the balance of power on this world will be
turned upside down and the English-European descended superpowers will suddenly
find themselves in the same place as they found the New World 'Indians 500
years ago.  We will then be the primitives confronting the Interstellar
Superpower! Considering what we have done to each other here on Planet Earth, a
contact like this, where, this time, WE are at a stark DISadvantage is not at
all a pleasant event to contemplate.  That is assuming that THEY conduct
THEMSELVES toward us as we did toward the Indians back those many centuries . .

But what if THEY do not . . . .

If THEY  did act like us, this network would not exist, neither MUFON or CUFOS
would be around and the debate about the existence of extraterrestrials would
be stilled as the very question, "are we alone in the universe?" would have
been forever answered as we would have long since been under THEIR rule.
Therefore . . . . .

What THEY DO NOT DO can, in an indirect way become part of a possible answer.
THEY may respect cultures other than THEIR own that are not as technically
advanced as THEY are but THEY recognize have a right of their own to exist free
from the kind of consequences that such contact can bring.  (Hmmmm, I hope you
can understand that paragraph.  It's kind of clumsy but the best I can think of
now.)

Then too . . . .

In our own eyes, let alone someone else's, the more thoughtful among us have
seen ourselves as still as a savage, violent, primitive species who cannot
tolerate any differences among ourselves without exploding into violent, often
lethal rages at the sight of any such differences.  It can be anything,
religious, racial, sexual, political, whatever.  In the States, our
'conservative' society has fostered deep homophobic attitudes towards people
who have sexual preferences away from an arbitarily prescribed 'norm,' and who
in the world HASN'T seen the now famous (or infamous) L.A. riots in the wake of
a certain judicial verdict that paints in stark, glaring terms the fact that in
spite of Civil Rights, etc., race relations in this country have a l-o-n-g way
yet to go before harmony there is realized, if it ever will be.  Point is, in
this paragraph, if we as humans on this planet, can't treat our own differences
with courtesy, dignity and respect, we will be an abyssmal failure contacting
beings who are further removed from us . . . . .That is speaking of humans
generally, not specifically as people,

Which may be why . . . . . .

THEY are 'contacting,' "selecting", as THEY have been known to put it, or
abducting people singly to be put under control (temporarily) and with some,
maybe 'relationships' are forged . . . .

 PG> Granted they may have biological needs and be using us in this regard, but
 PG> given the current state of our medical technology - i.e. IVF, genetic
 PG> engineering re attempts to eliminate inherited diseases etc. I tend to
 PG> feel that aliens who are so advanced that they can cross however many
 PG> light years they cross to get here would be advanced enough not to need us
 PG> as a genetic resource be it for breeding with a view to revitalising
 PG> themselves physically or otherwise.

We, perhaps may not be the only beings who develop inconsistently, that is,
overdeveloping in certain areas while being behind in others.  We know next to
nothing about these beings' culture but I'm not of the opinion that because
THEY can do something we at present cannot do -- cross interstellar space --
THEY are superbeings at everything else, also.  Perhaps THEY have this
inetrstellar technology but they may have worn themselves out by inbreeding.
That's just a guess and there are biological difficulties with this concept,
but that's for another message.

G'night

Richard

--
Richard Salts - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Tom Davis)
Subject: Re: Abduction Theory?
Date: 31 May 92 00:57:00 GMT


  Given the nearly mind numbing routine described by most abductees, it
occurs to me that the aliens reported in abduction cases may not be
scientists at all.  Rather thay are more likely technicians or, even,
androids - either mechanical or organic.
  Just a thought.

--
Tom Davis - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Bill Skiles)
Subject: Mind control
Date: 29 May 92 08:09:00 GMT

> Bill, I still have to send you my questionnaire.
> Hang in there,  I'll do it.

Thanks, I'm hangin'.

BTW, I bought your book. There seems to be a lot
of stuff comming into my memory from earlier years.
Been sharing it with John Hicks, but I shoulda been
writing it down. I really don't know what to think
anymore. The farther away from the experience in
the Everglades, the more it becomes like a dream,
Wish to God there was someone local and I could
just find out one way or the other.

Thanks for not forgetting me.

Bill

--
Bill Skiles - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 65

                            Thursday, June 11th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                              Re: Abduction Theory?
                                Missing Abductees
                              Re: Missing abductees
                                  CROP CIRCLES
                                Abduction Theory?
                                MUFON Conference
                                 Abd. Conference
                                Abduction Theory?
                                Abduction Theory?
                              Re: Missing Abductees
                                     Biopsy
                              Re: Abduction Theory?
                              Re: MUFON Conference
                              Re: Abduction Theory?
                                    Intruders
                                Sleep research 1
                                Sleep research 2
                              Non-missing abductees
                                  Re: Intruders

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Marc Michalik)
Subject: Re: Abduction Theory?
Date: 2 Jun 92 21:19:00 GMT

Why not?  The state of mind an abductee is in facilitates control of
the subject that is apparently physicaly stronger.  If they are the
scientists of their race then this would be a logical method.  Just
like our scientists tranquilize tigers and other dangerous (to us)
animals.  To take it even farther, if a mouse were a scientist he
would surely "neutrilize" a cat before attempting any close
examination.
--
Marc Michalik - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Missing Abductees
Date: 3 Jun 92 07:23:00 GMT

In response to a message from John Powell, David Jacobs writes:

 >     John, to follow up on the discussion about abductees
 > being missing  during an abduction event.  To the best of
 > my knowledge we do not have a  single case anywhere,
 > anytime, of an abductee being physically in a  normal place
 > while an abduction event is ongoing.  Keith Basterfield has
 >  said that he has two cases of this happening, but my
 > discussion with him  about this and my research into one of
 > his cases suggests that he is in  error on both accounts.
 > Therefore I can say with a certain degree of  confidence
 > that the percentage of abductees who are missing is 100%.
 >  Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2

Please explain the basis for your conclusion that your research into
one of Keith's cases suggests that "he is in error on both
accounts".

Thankyou in advance ...
                                  --  John

--
John Burke - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu!jrblack
Subject: Re: Missing abductees
Date: 4 Jun 92 21:51:25 GMT

From: James Roger Black <[e-mail]>

If memory serves, Ray Fowler's 'Betty Andreasson' case had at least one
instance where the abductee was observed by a family member to be still
in bed during the time when the abduction was taking place.  This was
'explained' as an imposture by one of the aliens to allay suspicion.

There was also a case reported years ago in IUR in which a man went
into a full-blown abduction experience while riding in a car with two
friends.  The abductee was screaming hysterically about being followed
by a 'flying saucer' which looked to his two friends like an ordinary
bus.  The abductee became so agitated that he jumped out of the car in
traffic and injured himself, after which his friends took him to a
local medical facility to be patched up.  The abductee interpreted this
as a typical 'examining room' experience, and the human medical
personnel as aliens.

I think we're going to have to make a place for 'non-missing' abductees
in any comprehensive treatment of the phenomenon.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Roger Black                                [e-mail]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: CROP CIRCLES
Date: 1 Jun 92 04:47:00 GMT


  I've forwarded the following to you here, since I believe you're in the
Philadelphia area, in the hope that you'd be able to pass it along to someone
who could investigate. I don't know any other details, but I've asked the
poster to not post the exact location but to send it to either me or Chris
Rutkowski via netmail. If he does that, and it doesn't turn out that the entire
world has trampled all over the site already, I'll netmail you the location to
pass along too. The poster lives in the Philadelphia area.
  Thanks.

 * Forwarded from "UFO"
 * Originally by Steve Bernheisel
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 28 May 1992, 20:56

For any interested UFO researchers that use this forum, about a day ago
several crop circles were discovered near my house, following a night of about
a dozen UFO sightings.  Does anybody have a theory on how crop  circles may be
connected to UFO's?  Are they, in fact, landing sites?   Please get back to me
on this if interested. Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2

--
John Hicks - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Abduction Theory?
Date: 2 Jun 92 06:31:00 GMT


 >  Rather thay are more likely technicians or, even,
 > androids - either mechanical or organic.
 >   Just a thought.

  "Greys" have been said to walk in lockstep, pivot as if in formation, or just
plain stop if confronted with a situation which requires a quick decision...as
if they were "robots."
  I don't have any references...just bits and pieces of trivia.

                                           jbh

--
John Hicks - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: MUFON Conference
Date: 2 Jun 92 06:56:39 GMT


    Linda, I'm not sure yet whether I'll attend.  Budd has been urging me to
go, but I haven't made up my mind yet.  Incidentally, I think that  Walt Andrus
and I are two of the last remaining people who attended the  first one in
Peoria in 1970 (?).  I wonder if there is anybody out there  who might have
attended who is still involved with the subject of  UFOs.  It would be nice to
hear from him or her.  Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: afglsc.span.nasa.gov!WEBB
Subject: Abd. Conference
Date: 5 Jun 92 15:15:37 GMT

From: [e-mail]

To: Kieth Basterfield

Kieth, I understand you are coming all the way to Boston for the Abd.
Conference! I am now planning to be there and to give a paper, I think soon
after yours on Tues. I wasn't sure until recently that I could attend; I
have been to 3 scientific meetings in the last 5 weeks! I will be talking
at the AC about hypnosis  and abductions. It will be good to see you again.
Dave Pritchard has done a great job in getting money for the meeting and
listening to advice and inviting an excellent cross-section of researchers
(and abductees), including you, Jenny Randles, etc., to balance the ETH,
nuts-and-bolts attitude that is so popular in the US. Your comments to Dave
ala FPP and physically missing abductees hit the nail on the head. The
community must be careful to look at all and carefully catalog all of the
data, and not ignore that which does not fit a favored theory.  See you
soon, Dave Webb.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pony Godic)
Subject: Abduction Theory?
Date: 7 Jun 92 00:21:00 GMT


 > I believe us to be a biological gene pool that they may need to
 > probably revitalize themselves.  That may be only one purpose
 > but racial survival is a pretty powerful motive that would impel
 > them to travel as far as necessary, to be able to improve their
 > stock, if they have the means to make the trip.
 > Also . . . .

Hi Richard,

The idea of a gene pool begs a very much bigger question.  If we are a
gene pool for the aliens then we must have a common ancestor.  If we
do indeed have a common ancestor, then we must have been seeded on
this planet, or maybe this is a former colony, penal or otherwise, (not
that such an idea is new in itself).  I'm no biologist, but it would
seem that genetically we may have a sought after vigour due to the mixing of
races etc.  On the other hand, we may be a crop providing genetic
material for other races on behalf of which the current aliens are
acting.  Then again they may be looking for something specific.  This
is all very interesting, but a little voice keeps telling me that with
our disease plagued lives, short life spans due to the ultimate
disease, old age, that there's very little we could possibly offer to
a race sophisticated enough to cross space and get here.  Of course,
all we can do is guess.  It's possible that the aliens are suffering
physical decline due to the very nature of their technological
sophistication.  None of the above really rings true to me though, I
think whatever is going on, is extremely sophisticated.



 > where a psychologist was taken on board a 'craft' and the
 > occupants in this case were much more communicative and than are
 > most other abduction cases we hear about and 'told' and showed
 > this psychologist a lot of things about themselves and their
 > purpose here.  Hopkins, however, related only the barest
 > outlines of this case as, in the chapter, he refused to publish
 > everything so as to give other confirming evidence a chance to
 > surface.

 The above illustrates the adaptability of the alien interaction
thereby revealing the sophistication of their psychological approach.
Contrary to popular believe, I feel that the aliens have an ultra
sophisticated understanding of our psychological makeups re background
and current culture.  I know this must sound like a phenomenal and
impossible idea, nevertheless, I feel that the evidence bears it out.



 > Now here come the UFO's.  Are they alien spaceships?  Some
 > evidence might strongly point in that direction, depending on
 > who is asked that question.  The fact remains that, if some of
 > these 'unknowns' ARE such things, then for the FIRST time,
 > perhaps in history, the balance of power on this world will be
 > turned upside down and the English-European descended
 > superpowers will suddenly find themselves in the same place as
 > they found the New World 'Indians 500 years ago.  We will then
 > be the primitives confronting the Interstellar Superpower!
 > Considering what we have done to each other here on Planet
 > Earth, a contact like this, where, this time, WE are at a stark
 > DISadvantage is not at all a pleasant event to contemplate.
 > That is assuming that THEY conduct THEMSELVES toward us as we
 > did toward the Indians back those many centuries . . . .

 For me there is sufficient hard evidence in the tiny percentage of
paydirt cases to convince me that UFOs are intersellar machines capable of
phenomenal speed invisibility etc.  I think they've been here
throughout recorded history and have constantly adapated themselves to
what we could assimilate at any given point in history.  In this
century they've shown us hardware and themselves.  We are currently on
the threshhold, re abductions, of something much bigger.  Whatever it
is, I believe it will be geared towards minimal damage in us.  I
believe the aliens are neither new nor limited in their understanding
of us.  In the main we have misidentified, been caught up in mass
hysteria type waves of belief, not to mention hoaxed, all of which has
created a very thick, ultra convenient smoke screen behind which the
aliens continue to operate at a slow and steady pace.


 > What THEY DO NOT DO can, in an indirect way become part of a
 > possible answer. THEY may respect cultures other than THEIR own
 > that are not as technically advanced as THEY are but THEY
 > recognize have a right of their own to exist free from the kind
 > of consequences that such contact can bring.  (Hmmmm, I hope you
 > can understand that paragraph.  It's kind of clumsy but the best

 In all honesty, I doubt anyone from an advanced and civilised society
would be able to actually respect us.  Surely the ugliness of our
intolerance, the ferocity of our violence, the bloody-minded greed that
is overpopulating and devestating this planet are not worthy of
respect.  Scientifically, the aliens may be clinically and
dispassionately documenting us, but why?  Is there some seat of
universal government that is forced to take an interest in all
intelligent beings, no matter what stage of their development?


 > We, perhaps may not be the only beings who develop
 > inconsistently, that is, overdeveloping in certain areas while
 > being behind in others.  We know next to nothing about these
 > beings' culture but I'm not of the opinion that because THEY can
 > do something we at present cannot do -- cross interstellar space
 > -- THEY are superbeings at everything else, also.  Perhaps THEY
 > have this inetrstellar technology but they may have worn
 > themselves out by inbreeding. That's just a guess and there are
 > biological difficulties with this concept, but that's for
 > another message.

I agree that being able to cross space, perform impressive aerobatics,
abduct, experiment and generally behave inscrutably doesn't qualifies the
aliens as superbeings.  We should always bear this in mind.  Just
because we know nothing of their background, does not mean that the
assumption of superiority is correct.  The development of mysical
assumptions just serves to further muddy up the waters.  Like I said
earlier, the aliens don't have to make a smoke screen, we're doing
that for them.

Anyway, I'll close here, but I'd like to conclude by saying that all
the above is in the spirit of discussion, I have certain views, but
recognise that I can not validate any of them with evidence, so they
remain ideas that make sense to me, but which I recognise maybe
entirely wrong.  I've never seen a UFO, let alone been abducted,
unfortunately!
Cheers, Pony.

--
Pony Godic - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Marc Michalik)
Subject: Abduction Theory?
Date: 7 Jun 92 00:25:00 GMT

I agree with almost everything you said.  I too think that they have,
as far as we are capable of comprehending, always been here.  The
moderator would probably stop us but I'd bet we could have a darn
interesting conversation about religion, couldn't we?
--
Marc Michalik - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Missing Abductees
Date: 7 Jun 92 02:25:00 GMT


 > If memory serves, Ray Fowler's 'Betty Andreasson' case had at least one
 > instance where the abductee was observed by a family member to be still
 > in bed during the time when the abduction was taking place.  This was
 > 'explained' as an imposture by one of the aliens to allay suspicion.
 >
 > I think we're going to have to make a place for 'non-missing' abductees
 > in any comprehensive treatment of the phenomenon.

I also believe that Linda Howe is working with a couple of cases of this sort
as well.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: Jake,[e-mail] (Jake, Smith)
Subject: Biopsy
Date: 8 Jun 92 01:37:00 GMT


     I have read that Aleins take biopys of your calf because it heels
very fast.  Is this true or is it a figment of someones mind.
--
Jake, Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Jake,[e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Tom Davis)
Subject: Re: Abduction Theory?
Date: 5 Jun 92 20:05:00 GMT


  Your thought is well stated.  Certainly I have no basis for
disagreement.  The main thing is for researchers to remember that we
may not be seeing that with which we are dealing.  The obvious parallel
would be our own mechanical space probes.  Were we Martians and ran
across a robot lander from Earth, we might be impressed by its actions.
 Perhaps amused or perhaps afraid, but, after it clearly did not attack
us, we would probably allow it to decay at its leisure.
  While we tend to feel intervention is occuring, the majority of
people feel that abduction cases are at best of passing interest and,
like the prescribed decaying robot, should be left to their own design.
  Additionally, we do not know what reality is for our assumed aliens.
That which we call dreams, intuition, etc., may be their reality.
That, of course, opens an entirely new can of worms - in which,
hopefully, we will not find our aliens.

--
Tom Davis - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: MUFON Conference
Date: 8 Jun 92 00:23:00 GMT

Hi David,

Here's hoping you can make it to Albuquerque!

You mentioned attending the first MUFON conf. in 1970.  Funny, I didn't
know anything about UFO's then, although I was aware of the Betty and
Barney Hill Story because their story created a big sensation when it
came out.

Best regards,

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Abduction Theory?
Date: 9 Jun 92 06:12:00 GMT

Hi Marc,

In light of some of your recent discussions with Pony, do you think
it's possible (if the aliens have always been around) that they could
have been responsible for the decline of the Roman Empire and the
sudden, incredible power of Christianity?


Thanks,

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Intruders
Date: 6 Jun 92 16:43:00 GMT

Thanks for your comments on the min series. No doubt it will make its
way down to Australia in several months time. It will be interesting
to see what effect it has here. I've just been preparing a conference
paper on the Australian experience and have reviewed our "missing
time", "abduction-like" and "abduction" cases. On the strict
definition used by CUFOS for an abduction we rate 20 cases from over
the years. The UFORA network covers the country fairly well, and I
compile our bi-monthly "Reearch Digest" covering incoming reports.
Abduction reports have all but dried up of late-no new ones and no one
reporting older abductions. So we will have a clear measure of how
Intruders affects the population in terms of reports coming up.
UFORA conducted a nationa wide search for abduction accounts using the
mass media some while ago-and almost nothing came to light. We are
very fortunate at the moment to be able to research without mass media
interest, e.g. we have no abductee appearing on nation wide TV chat
shows, no best selling authors talking about the subject etc. On the
opposit side, this means we are unable to attract the interest of
health professionals. But in balance, we can research quietly at our
own pace. I wonder if Intruders will bring in a rush of cases? If so,
we do not have the health/therapist professionals to handle it.

--
Keith Basterfield - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Sleep research 1
Date: 6 Jun 92 16:55:00 GMT

Over the last few years I have been researching various aspects of
sleep and the relationships some sleep phenomenon may have on
abduction and UFO research, particularly the bedroom invaders type
material-noting that many abductions/close encounters happen in the
bedroom often on the sleep/awake interface.
So, the following comments are intended to get you thinking, and
diving for your nearest reference materials on sleep.
1. Sleep paralysis: Most people I have asked about their sleep habits
can recall at least one instance of sleep paralysis. Here they
find themselves paralysed when either falling asleep, or wake during
the night to find themselves paralysed. Nothing to do with abductions,
except...some people when awaken paralysed, feel a sense of a
"presence" in the room. Some may even see something present.
Current medical knowledge, availaible in the medical literature, is
that sleep paralysis where your muscles appear not to be unbder your
control, is due to the appearance of REM(rapid eye movement-dream
sleep) intruding into you when you are in fact awake. Weird! The
reason you don't jump out of bed and act out the motions occurring in
your dreams is because your brain reduces the toning of your muscles
during dreaming (REM sleep) so you are immobile. Sleep paralaysis is
this same action but you are actually awake. Go back and read some of
Whitley Striber's recolelctions in Communion in light of this
knowledge.
US medical surveys suggest sleep paralysis runs in families over
several generations-if you've got it,m chances are good your mother
and father, grandparents etc experienced sleep paralysis. The rported
incidence in the literature is about 3-6% of the US population. My own
surveys would suggest almost everyone has experienced it at least once
in a lifetime.
More next message.

--
Keith Basterfield - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Sleep research 2
Date: 6 Jun 92 17:05:00 GMT

2. Sleep narcolepsy: Symptoms are attacks of sleep, even during the
day when you are wide awake, feling weak, sleep paralysis and
hypnagogic imagery of various types. Hypnagogic imagery, can take
various forms including patches of light rhough to complex "real as
real"scenes played out before your eyes. Here a peson actually,
instead of falling asleep through sleep stages 1-4 goes straight from
being awake to REM-dream sleep. Research has shown a cause associated
with the brains neurtransmitting chemicals.

3. Sleep walking: Abductees talk of drifting out to a UFO. Sleep
walking ovccurs to normal, healthy people with a degree of anxiety.
The individual is by definiton and brain wave analysis "asleep."
However, they walk around with eyes open (while "asleep") ,
manouevering around objects in their path, can make coffee whiulst in
this state, hang curtains (from my own surveys) etc. How can they be
both "awake" and "asleep" simultaneously? Relevance to abductions:
indicating unusual states of consciousness we accept as genuine, and
very importantly most sleepwalkers when told of their exploits by
anyone who sees them usually has no memory of them the next day!

4. Night terrors: Imagine waking up in the night screaming, with your
pulse racing 160 beats a minute, drenched in sweat and terrifying
anyone sleeping with you. This happens to some people. It occurs
mainly during the early parts of the night, and these terrifyiong
epiosdes are almsot never remembered the next day!

I'm not suggesting that the above are explanations for abductions,
only that there are numerous examples of alteredt states of
consciousness which can involve little or no memory recall on the part
of the indviduals who experience them. Some aspects of abductions
certainly do bear on these sleep phenomenon and therefore should be
researched, published in UFO literature, and discussed. Very few
researchers seem to know about such phenomenon, and that is why I
bring them to your attention.
As I have mentioned before, I believe we, UFOlogists need to openly
research such things, and we should be the ones, eciding if they bear
on abduction research. If we do not, then the sceptics certainly will
do so.

--
Keith Basterfield - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Non-missing abductees
Date: 7 Jun 92 17:44:00 GMT

Thank you to those who commented about the importance of also looking
at abduction events where people were physically present when an
abduction occurred. Naturally, this does not automatically invoke a
psychological explanation for the abduction-perhaps their mind was
taken somewhere. However, it does give us food for thought.
I would like to ask anyone else who has come across such cases to post
detials here, and particularly a source for the information, so that
we can all read the original data.
Does anyone have a more detailed source for the cases Roger Black
recalled?

--
Keith Basterfield - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Intruders
Date: 11 Jun 92 06:17:00 GMT

Hi Keith,

I wonder myself if INTRUDERS had any effect on the general population
here.  Probably most people don't believe it, and faithful readers of
Paranet thought some parts were hokey.

Keep up the good work!

Linda Bird

--
Linda Bird - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]


********************************************************************************
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****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************


                          Abduction Digest, Number 66

                             Tuesday, July 7th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

*****B*U*L*L*E*T*I*N***B*U*L*L*E*T*I*N***B*U*L*L*E*T*I*N***B*U*L*L*E*T*I*N*****

We're Back!

Approximately a month ago, the list server for the ParaNet digests was
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new home for the mailing list and the FTP archives.  We are pleased to
announce that we have been successful at both tasks.

While the digests were out of service, the FidoNet echo traffic has
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space, we will be doling out the backlogged digests at the rate of two
or three a day until they are all completed.  As far as we know, no
traffic has been lost, so you should be able to get completely caught
up on the various discussions by simply reading the digests in order as
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The FTP archives for the ParaNet digests are now located on Internet
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We would like to thank all of you for your patience and your concern
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*******************************************************************************

Today's Topics:

                                    "Vision"
                                  Re: "Vision"
                                 M.I.T. meeting
                               Physically present
                                      Again
                                 MIT conference
                               Who is an Abductee?
                               Who is an abductee?
                                      Again
                                 Silent Invasion
                                 Silent Invasion
                            Crop Circles in Indiana?
                                What's happening
                                What's Happening
                             Ring's "Omega Project"
                                    Intruders
                                Abduction Meaning
                               Who is an Abductee?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: "Vision"
Date: 24 Jun 92 07:00:00 GMT

Linda Bird writes:
 >
 > Well, I just wanted to share this; it truly was
 > horrifying--just imagine the scene in your mind.  Any
 > ideas?  Comments?

It seems hard to imagine why you would have been scared, but I
guess it's just a matter of personality.  Some of us *enjoy*
things like that.  Anyway, I probably would have tried to stick
my finger in there.  Typical *guy* thing to do, huh?   :-)

                                          --  John

--
John Burke - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: "Vision"
Date: 25 Jun 92 06:13:00 GMT

Hi John,

Yep, sticking your finger in the hole I saw would have been something a
guy would do.  <g>  The thing is, I could see depth to this hole, and I
probably could HAVE put my finger in it.  **Yikes!**

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Don Newman)
Subject: M.I.T. meeting
Date: 26 Jun 92 14:57:00 GMT

I understand that a slect group of abduction researchers(along with
some abducties) had a meeting at M.I.T. about mid June. Please pass
on what the agenda and what the conclusions,if any, were. Thanks Don.
--
Don Newman - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Physically present
Date: 26 Jun 92 02:45:00 GMT

The IUR has just accepted an article by myself, describing the full
story of the Maureen Puddy case from Australia in 1972/73. It is
scheduled to appear in the next IUR.

--
Keith Basterfield - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Bill Skiles)
Subject: Again
Date: 26 Jun 92 07:55:00 GMT

David, we had another experience last night, I think.

I went to bed late last night as we are on vacation around the house. Stayed up
till 2:00 a.m. and couldn't get to sleep. The fear came over me that the
(whatevers) were going to return. I just couldn't fall asleep and kept waking
up feeling that they were near. About 3:00 a.m. I woke up my wife and told her
that I was feeing afraid. She said she would stay awake for a while. I finally
fell asleep after that and all seemed to be just my imagination until.....

This morning when my wife said to me that although she was FULLY
awake last night, for some reason she fell imediately asleep
and she never does that. She said she had a strange dream
last night. I asked her what? She said she dreamed that her and I were in our
bed BUT we were floating in some kind of atmosphere. She said it was thicker
than air but lighter than water. And she said that we were not alone. I said
what do you mean? She said that floating around the bed there were
6-8 GREY dolphins with BIG BLACK eyes. And they were just
starring at us. She said she was looking at them and thinking,
"this isn't right." She said that she was also wondering why their eyes, the
dolphin's, were in front.

She said that until now she thought that maybe I was just getting carried away
with this stuff, but now she's scared.

We live out in the middle of nowhere, in the country. There is ample
opportunity to be visited any night. She wanted me to ask you if you had come
up with ANY kind of detriment. Is there any way to fight this?

P.S. What about the questionaire?

Thanks for any help.

Bill

--
Bill Skiles - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: MIT conference
Date: 28 Jun 92 07:39:15 GMT


    The participants in the MIT conference were sworn to uphold a vow of
noncommunication about the content of the MIT conference until the  proceedings
are published.  While I have problems with this, I did in  fact sign the "oath"
which binds me.  However, it was pretty much what  you would expect in an
abduction conference.  I don't know when the  proceedings will be out, but I
expect by the end of the year.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Who is an Abductee?
Date: 28 Jun 92 08:18:29 GMT


    I must say that I am quite puzzled by your defense of the idea that anybody
who claims to be an abductee is therefore an abductee. I had assumed that you
would most certainly agree with my position that every case must be competently
investigated before we can tell for sure what, if anything, happened. I am
afraid that I must strongly disagree with your position. I believe that
careful, systematic, investigation of each and every case, regardless of
claims, and regardless even of consciously  recalled memories, is of the utmost
importance. Science will not be advanced without the development of methodology
that will enable us to build the factual data to which you allude in your
message.

     I am also quite astonished by your statement that "witnessed non-physical
abductions involve all the elements of non-witnessed  abductions."  I am
assuming that by "non-physical abductions" you mean  those in which the person
was witnessed to be physically in place durign  the alleged event.  I must say
that in the 350 abductions that I have  looked into and in the many hundreds
that Budd Hopkins has investigated,  the channeled abduction accounts,
delusionary abduction accounts,  invented abduction accounts, and the like,
made by people who might think  that they were abducted but who were not, are
quite different and easily  recognizable by an experienced researcher.  You
might wish to look at the  books that Hopkins and I have written and compare
them to the information  contained in the non-physical abductions. I think that
you will find that the answer to the question that you correctly ask about
whether there is a difference between witnessed non-physical abductions and
non-witnessed (or for that matter, witnessed) physical abductions, is  most
assuredly, yes.

     Keith Basterfield says that hypnosis is illegal in Australia unless
performed by an M.D. and that there are very few of them in the country  who
have expressed any interest in doing this type of work.  I think that  this
state of affairs has severely handicapped your effort to get to the truth of
what is happening in each event.  I hope that this will soon  change.

     I closing, let me reiterate that there are people who think that they have
been abducted and who have not. The Rodeghier definition is good as far as it
goes, but it needs revising on several points not the least ow  which is to
allow for the role of investigation in all cases. We are still in the
sorting-out stage of research and just because one  researcher comes out with a
definition does not mean that it is writ in  stone forever.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Who is an abductee?
Date: 28 Jun 92 08:44:50 GMT


    The problem of telling whether a person is an abductee or is not is a
matter of investigation and establishing a number of things about the  person's
credibility, motivations, and so forth.  In many ways it is  similar to the
problems engendered by UFO researchers in the early 1950s  when they wre trying
to decide whether a person had actually seen a UFO  or not.  Ultimately,
deciding on the truthfulness of the witness depends on the patterns established
by experience within the abduction phenomenon  since the Hill case (or even
Vilas Boas).  Finding out exactly what  happened on a detailed level is even
more difficult.  The patterns that I  outlined in my book were the product of a
great deal of digging,  thinking, luck, acticulate abductees, and a touch of
inspiration.  Even  then we have a problem.  Now that the book is out it will
be much easier  to absorb the material and repeat it when inventing a bogus
abduction  tale.  We all have to be even more careful than ever before.

     Of course we have many multiple abduction cases in which the person  was
abducted along with others.  We have cases in which the witnesses  were
"switched off" and not abducted with others.  We have a few cases in  which
there were uninvolved witnesses to an abduction event.  The problem  is what do
we do with the great mass of cases in which the person was  alone during the
abduction event?  Once again, we must rely on the  patterns that have been
established, the veracity of the witness, and so  on.  We do know quite a bit
about what happens in an abduction now.  It  is not like we are floundering
around with great masses of data that we  do not know what to do with, although
heaven knows that problem does  exist.  Still sorting out exactly what happens
during an abduction is  going to be a matter of standardizing methodology and
education.  We are  still just beginning to do this but I think that before
long we will have  accomplished it.

     Right now, let us not get side-tracked into areas like "imaginal"  realms
or Strieberism.  These are ideas thought up out of whole cloth  without a
particle of evidence to back them up.  The overwhelming  preponderance of the
evidence suggests that the abduction event is a  physical event that happens to
victims.  If we keep on the straight and  narrow and investigate abductions
from this perspective, I think that we  will gain the most knowledge.  If we go
off into other directions, that  is o.k., but let us not get confused about
what is actually happening.   There has already been an enormous amount of
wheel spinning and I would  hate to see others begin the spinning all over
again.  Just because a  person dreams up a theory does not mean that it has
any value and that it  has to be taken seriously.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Marc Michalik)
Subject: Again
Date: 29 Jun 92 22:01:00 GMT

Anyway to fight it?  It may not sound practicle but I have been
"taken" (I hate the word abducted because people think it's a big
joke) and I think that I have found a way to prevent further
"visits".  Don't go to sleep when it is dark outside and carry a
gun.  Several reports that I have seen indicate that the EBEs avoid
weapons like the plague.  A large caliber pistol (such as a 9mm) in
a shoulder holster should be sufficient.  Most, if not all,
abductions happen at night while in bed, if you don't go to sleep
until 5:30 A.M. or so they don't have a chance to take you at night.
I do these things now and haven't had any problems.  But then, I was
only taken once twelve years ago and hadn't had anymore problems
anyway.  I just feel better taking these precautions.
--
Marc Michalik - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Alan Decker)
Subject: Silent Invasion
Date: 2 Jul 92 01:24:00 GMT

David, Many thanks and hats off to you for your fine effort, "Secret
Life". As I can see you are aware, it is a work that is long past
due. Best of luck getting more "professionals" to help out, also
long past due. I called in on.... Sorry, will have to continue this
message in another post.
--
Alan Decker - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Alan Decker)
Subject: Silent Invasion
Date: 2 Jul 92 01:58:00 GMT

David, to continue last message, I was about to say that I called in
on Don's radio show when you guested, to protest your (and Don's)
presumtion that "if the aliens were going to take over, they could
have done so a long time ago, so at least we don't have to worry
about that". I hope I didn't come across too strong, but it bothers
me when anyone presumes to know the aliens motives, capabilities, or
plans. Terrestrial chauvinism, if you will. I do not claim to be
able to anticipate the aliens next move, but if I were invading an
alien planet, even I can think of several reasons why a gradual,
silent takeover would be preferable to an immediate, blast- em,
war-of-the-worlds type scenario.
        While it is one of the most unpleasant possibilities to
consider, it is a very real one, nonetheless.
Alan
--
Alan Decker - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Brune)
Subject: Crop Circles in Indiana?
Date: 2 Jul 92 17:58:00 GMT

All,

Has anyone heard or seen any reports lately of UFO sightings and/or crop circle
reports in the Indiana area?

David

--
David Brune - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: What's happening
Date: 1 Jul 92 06:59:02 GMT


    Bill, your wifes's behavior and dream are suspicious.  It is  impossible to
tell exactly what has happened until proper, competent,  investigation has been
accomplished.  Budd and I are going to be  conducting a series of workshops
around the country for psychiatrists and  psychologists who are interested in
learning more about the subject.  I  hope that eventually we can have somebody
in your area who will be  available to do this kind of work.

     I don't know exactly what happened the other night, but you and your  wife
can give each other the support that you both might require.  It is  important
to be able to deal with this phenomenon with someone else.  You  are lucky to
have this support because there are many who do not.  The  best I can say is
that you are not alone, there are many, many, others  who have had the same
experiences that you have related before.  I wish  that I could just tell you
what to do and then it would alleviate the  situation, but unfortunately I can
not.  We just don't know what to do.   We have no way of stopping it.  When I
work with people, I tell them that  I cannot give physical control, the only
thing that we can do is work  toward intellectual and emotional control.  If
that is achieved, I think  that I have won a victory.

     Hang on.  Hold Tight.  Let's see if we can up up with somebody in the
near future who you can work with in your area. Incidentally, the questionnaire
is in the mail.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: What's Happening
Date: 3 Jul 92 17:42:01 GMT

Although I realize that there is a limited amount of information which can be
discussed about the recent MIT conference, I would appreciate your sharing
with us what the goals and objectives were for that meeting.

Thanks Dave.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Doug Morrow)
Subject: Ring's "Omega Project"
Date: 4 Jul 92 00:28:00 GMT

David,

I am in the process of reading Kenneth Ring's new book "The Omega
Project". He presents some interesting thoughts on the relationship
between UFO encounters and Near Death Experiences.

Are you aware of his work? If so, do you have any comments on it?
--
Doug Morrow - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Intruders
Date: 30 Jun 92 23:50:00 GMT

The mini series "Intruders" is about to be shown this weekend down
here in Australia. It will be interesting to see what affect this has
on the reporting rate of abductions. The UFORA network has only
recorded one possible new abduction case in the last few months. I'll
keep you posted.

--
Keith Basterfield - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pony Godic)
Subject: Abduction Meaning
Date: 2 Jul 92 08:38:00 GMT

David,

As Linda Bird's recent write up on the appearance of a space hole in a book
evidences, almost everyone has had one or more bizarre experiences in life.
 Some are so way out, that no matter how hard you think, you can't find a
meaning.  I thought really hard on Linda's experience but could think of no
plausible explanation.  Anyway, my point is that when we have extraordinary
experiences we seek an answer and on occasion that answer is itself
extraordinary.

Now, bearing in mind the public awareness of abduction phenomena, via the media
and books, it seems possible to me that people are in danger of trying to
understand unusual experiences in their lives using abduction indicators as a
tool.

I'm most defintely not saying here that abductions don't take place. I've seen
some very compelling cases that really could not be understood in any other way
than as abductions. On the other hand, I believe that psychological factors in
a given person's personality may cause them to decide they've been abducted
when they haven't.  But, I also believe that any person who has a series of
unexplained events in their background may, in a genuine search for meaning,
tie them together as an abduction and I think it's important to be aware of
this.  To illustrate this, I can talk from my own experience:

When I was about 7, I recall my younger sister being put to bed in the middle
of the night.  I saw her stand up in her cot and yet it also seemed to be me.
 The cot floated up into the air and there were brilliant stars shooting and
flashing in pinks and greens and yellows etc.
agaist the black night sky.
Now I don't know why my younger sister was being put to bed late, but I've no
doubt that I dreamed a particularly vivid dream and I even know the source.  A
"Rupert" book I had.  (I don't know if you have these in the U.S.  I think
they're originally English.  Rupert is a bear who wore clothes).

A couple of years later, I was lying in bed one night and there were three
people floating up around the upper walls.  The ceilings were high.  The people
were invisible.  They seemed to have no bodies, only big faces half in and half
out the wall.  There seemed to be 2 men and a woman.  They were all discussing
me.  I listened curiously and next day told my parents about it.  They told me
that people who hear voices that aren't there end up in the nut house - end of
Pony hearing voices.

In about my early 20s (I'm 40 now), I was telling my younger brother and sister
that I used to have this dream about how a UFO came over the back yard of where
we used to live in the country as kids.  I related that I was behind the
tankstand behind the laundry and heard someone cry out and that I came running
out to see the UFO.  My younger sister said she had exactly the same dream, but
she came out from a different directin to see it.  In her dream, the aliens
landed and got out of the UFO and, having paralysed her, came for her.  My
brother said he dreamed the same dream, but he came from another direction
again. I always thought that terribly interesting.  A few years later, I
mentioned the dream, my brother not only didn't remember the dream, he didn't
remember the discussion in which we realized we dreamed the same dream from
different angles.  My younger sister was very vague.  I think it obvious that
we all got caught up in the conversation and attached meaning where there was
no meaning.

Now to recent times.  When Vladimir and I moved up here (from Adelaide to
Cairns - literally from one end of Australia to the other) in mid November last
year, I had 2 interesting experiences on the long stretch of road between
Broken Hill and Neferti.  At dusk I saw what can best be described as a
Tasmanian Tiger, extinct on the Australian mainland as well as in Tasmania.  A
friend of mine submitted a report to the SA Museum and they said I did appear
to see a Tasmanian Tiger even though they are extinct.  Anyway, the stripes
were in the wrong place and my sighting was of a creature that I feel was
longer in body and tail, so I'm not going to claim a TT sighting, still it was
an interesting experience to have had.  But, it's not the relevant experience.
 That happened some time later in the dark.  The road we were travelling was
infested with kangaroos and wallabies and ran through flat scrubland as far as
the eye could see in any direction. It was very isolated and at night even more
so.  Anyway, we were driving along at a slow pace, straining our eyes in our
efforts not to hit a kangaroo, when all of a sudden out of the darkness I saw
two green forms not only looming but seeming to advance upon us.  They had very
broad shoulders and narrow waists.  There were long arms, but the heads and
legs were not caught in the car headlights, so I didn't see them.  They seemed
so big and so humanoid in shape, and seemed to actually be coming for us, that
I gasped so loudly that Vladimir asked me what was wrong.  Well, of course, I
knew immediately that I had seen two trees that were of the shape described and
that the angle of the car headlights and our speed added to the illusion of
humanoid shape and movement.

Now the point of all the above is that I am aware that these are all separate
incidents and that they are all entirely  mundane in origin.  I assure you I
have a very vivid imagination which no doubt was a contributing factor.
 Nevertheless, I have not tried to find a meaning in the meaningless, but many
people may indulge in that exercise and end up being researched as abductees.
 I bring this to your attention because I feel that the search for meaning is
something that must be born in mind in abduction research, particularly when
one considers the numbers of abductions are escalating.
Cheers, Pony.

--
Pony Godic - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: Who is an Abductee?
Date: 5 Jul 92 00:26:00 GMT


 > I must say that I am quite puzzled by your defense of the idea
 > that  anybody who claims to be an abductee is therefore an
 > abductee.  I had  assumed that you would most certainly  agree

Since I never said or infered the above, I am puzzled by it. Nevertheless,
lets's not get distracted by our mutual puzzlement.


 > with my position that every  case must be competently
 > investigated before we can tell for sure what, if  anything,
 > happened.  I am afraid that I must strongly disagree with your
 > position.  I believe that careful, systematic, investigation of
 > each and  every case, regardless of claims, and regardless even
 > of consciously  recalled memories, is of the utmost importance.

I'm tempted to comment on the above in the context of it being a psychological
ploy.  But, let's keep it simple.  I don't know what you perceive my position
to be, however, it is a straight forward belief in information sharing and
objective scientific investigation by those with the ability to do so.  Of
course, one cannot evaluate the worth of any research after publication in the
popular media, especially when a wealth of background information is not
shared. Again, I repeat my call for refereed works.


> Science will not be  advanced without the development of
 > methodology that will enable us to  build the factual data to
 > which you allude in your message.
 >

Methodology develops out of shared information, intelligent discussion and
participation by more than one or two researchers.

 >I am also quite astonished by your statement that
 > "witnessed  non-physical abductions involve all the elements of
 > non-witnessed  abductions."  I am assuming that by "non-physical
 > abductions" you mean  those in which the person was witnessed to
 > be physically in place durign  the alleged event.  I must say
 > that in the 350 abductions that I have  looked into and in the
 > many hundreds that Budd Hopkins has investigated,  the channeled
 > abduction accounts, delusionary abduction accounts,  invented
 > abduction accounts, and the like, made by people who might think
 >  that they were abducted but who were not, are quite different
 > and easily  recognizable by an experienced researcher. You
 > might wish to look at the  books that Hopkins and I have written
 > and compare them to the information  contained in the non-
 > physical abductions.  I think that you will find  that the
 > answer to the question that you correctly ask about whether
 > there  is a difference between witnessed non-physical abductions
 > and  non-witnessed (or for that matter, witnessed) physical
 > abductions, is  most assuredly, yes.
 >

It is interesting to note, that one researcher's conclusion may not be
anothers, this is why information sharing, vigorous discussion and refereed
articles, in intelligent journals, are so vital.


 >      Keith Basterfield says that hypnosis is illegal in
 > Australia unless  performed by an M.D. and that there are very
 > few of them in the country  who have expressed any interest in
 > doing this type of work.  I think that  this state of affairs
 > has severely handicapped your effort to get to the  truth of
 > what is happening in each event.  I hope that this will soon
 > change.
 >

Although we may not be suffering an inundation of abduction reports here in
Australia, it doesn't mean that we lack the ability to objectively evaluate the
subject as a whole.


>      I closing, let me reiterate that there are people who think
 > that they  have been abducted and who have not.  The Rodeghier
 > definition is good as  far as it goes, but it needs revising on
 > several points not the least ow  which is to allow for the role
 > of investigation in all cases.  We are  still in the sorting-out
 > stage of research and just because one  researcher comes out
 > with a definition does not mean that it is writ in  stone
 > forever.


Without getting personal, I must in all honesty say that you, in
company with Budd Hopkins, appear to present yourselves as "the" leading
researchers with the experience and track record to have a more informed
opinion than anyone else.  This disturbes me, because no area of UFO research
should be monopolised. There are other researchers contributing to abduction
debate and just because they are not "the" researchers, doesn't mean their
work is invalid.

--
Vladimir Godic - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 67

                             Monday, July 13th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                 Silent Invasion
                                What's happening
                                    Intruders
                                 Silent Invasion
                                    Workshops
                                 MIT Conference
                                  Omega Project
                               Who is an abductee?
                                   Ambiguities
                                    Workshops
                                  Omega Project
                                   Ambiguities
                               Who is an abductee?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Silent Invasion
Date: 4 Jul 92 07:04:15 GMT


    I would like to think you for your kind words about my book, it is always
nice to hear positive feedback.  I am afraid that I have to agree  with you
about the possibility of invasion on a more overt level. One of the things that
historians learn very quickly is that you cannot predict  the future.  While it
is certainly true that if invasion is on the aliens  minds, they could have
accomplished it a long time ago.  It is also true  that the end-product of the
abduction scenario could be a full-scale  invasion in the future.  It is also
true that a more sinister, covert,  invasion could also be in the works.
 Anything is possible.  Right now we  have to stick to what is known.  They
could have invaded if they wanted to and they didn't. I think that is a
positive note in our favor.
Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: What's happening
Date: 4 Jul 92 03:24:00 GMT


 > conducting a series of workshops around the country for psychiatrists
 > and  psychologists who are interested in learning more about the
 > subject.

  Please post a schedule for the workshops when you're ready to hold them. I
know a local psychologist who'd be very interested, plus I know a psychiatric
staff chief whose curiosity might just get the better of him.

                                           jbh

--
John Hicks - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (David Brune)
Subject: Intruders
Date: 6 Jul 92 04:37:00 GMT

Keith,

Please do!  It will be interesting to see if 'Intruders' does anything for the
UFO phenomena in your neck of the woods.

I would be especially interested in any sighting or abduction data that may
come up.

David

--
David Brune - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Alan Decker)
Subject: Silent Invasion
Date: 7 Jul 92 06:51:00 GMT

One of the  things that your work brings to the surface is the
"bonding" process. I have wondered for some time at what point the
abductee's  terror and fear suddenly change to "love and compassion"
for their abductors. I mean, It seems perfectly natural to feel
abject horror over what you are being subjected to, but
once you are on the "table", suddenly all is forgiven, everything is
fine, and you feel just peachy- keen! I imagined it to be either
drugs or technology or a combination. I suspect the "bonding"
procedure to be the main culprit in molding the hostage's feelings
towards the "visitor's" favor.
Alan
--
Alan Decker - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Workshops
Date: 7 Jul 92 05:44:20 GMT


John, the workshops are being given to interested psychiatrists, psychologists,
and psychiatric social workers who mailed in a special  card that was included
in the Roper Poll booklet.  The first one will be in New York City in mid-July.
 After that they will be held around the country, we hope. It means a lot of
work for Budd and I but we feel that  this is worth it.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: MIT Conference
Date: 7 Jul 92 05:50:40 GMT


    The MIT conference was set up by Dave Pritchard and John Mack. It had
several goals.  The first, I guess, was to bring together the major researchers
in the abduction area and have them share data to see what  everyone has been
able to come up with.  The second goal, I think, was to produce the proceedings
which will, it was hoped, act as a scientific guide to the abduction phenomenon
that scientists and professionals could  refer to for solid information.  My
guess is that the third goal was to  allow the abduction research community to
find out where the state of art is these days.  I am not sure that all these
goals were met, but at least  it was a good, and valuable, attempt that can
only be seen as another  step in the important goal of professionalization.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Omega Project
Date: 7 Jul 92 05:55:01 GMT


    Doug, I wrote a detailed critique of Kenneth Ring's article on the  Omega
Project in the current issue of the JOURNAL OF UFO STUDIES.  I am  afraid that
I was not very impressed with the article or his findings.  I  thought that the
study was ill-conceived and told us very little about  anything. The only point
that was interesting is that he could not find  any evidence that the Fantasy
Prone Personality theory was a major player  in abductions or Near Death
Experiences.  However, the study was so poor,  that I am not even sure that he
established that.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Who is an abductee?
Date: 7 Jul 92 06:23:43 GMT


    Pony,  Thank you very much for your message. I certainly agree that strange
events happen to people that are not apparently related to the  abduction
phenomenon.  When a person contacts me to find out the origin  of these strange
events, I usually talk with him or her for quite a long  time on the phone at
first.  I want to ascertain whether that person is  suffering from mental
illness, delusions, or some other form of psychological generation of
paranormal events.  I do this by asking a series of about twenty-five questions
designed to elicity most of the  unusual experiences that a person can remember
having occurred to him or  her.  The people who, in my judgement, are not
abductees I do not work  with. I tell them that the origin of their experiences
lies outside of my expertize and I try to refer them to someone else.  If they
are  seriously psychologically disturbed, I refer them to a therapist and tell
them that I am not equipped to work with them.

     One person told me that he had had an out of body experience once.  He was
hooked up to umpteen IV's and medical equipment.  He was in the  hospital for a
life-threatening illness.  His mother was next to him.  He  floated up to the
ceiling and saw his body in the bed and his mother  looking up at him.  I
judged that this, obviously, had nothing to do with  the abduction phenomenon.
 I have also had occassion to do hypnosis with  several individuals who thought
that they might be abductees.  After the  sessions, I judged that these
individuals were not, in fact, abductees  even though they were very suspicious
that they were.

     I think that the publication of my book makes it easier for a person  to
fake an abduction, and it also makes it easier for a person to absorb abduction
material and then repeat it back to the researcher as if it  happened to him or
her.  It must be said, however, that in my experience,  and in Budd Hopkins',
the latter problem is not nearly as big or  widespread as is thought.  It is
extremely important to screen each and  every potential abductee so that the
researcher knows what he or she is  actually researching.

     It is also important to be very careful about how one does the screening.
One must be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Inexperienced
researchers have said that good abduction cases were a hoax because various
aspects of the case were found to be  contradictory or the witness was not as
helpful as the investigator  desired.  What is even more important, is that the
abduction phenomenon  is extremely widespread and its hints and clues can be
easily overlooked by even the most experienced UFO investigators. My best guess
is that  thousands of abduction events are couched behind UFO sightings and
have been filed away in the cabinets of hundreds of UFO researchers over the
years.

     Pony, I cannot comment on what has happened to you personally. It is  most
probable that your explanation of the events is absolutely correct  and I am
going to leave it at that.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Ambiguities
Date: 7 Jul 92 07:10:59 GMT


    Vladmir, I hope that we are finally moving to concensus.  To clear up  your
puzzlement, I had assumed that if you adhered to the Rodeghier  definition of
abductees, then it would automatically mean that you agreed  with propostion
that anybody who claims to be an abductee is therefore an  abductee.  That is
what the Rodgehier definition allows.  If you do not  feel that this is the
case, then you and I are in agreement that the  Rodeghier definition should be
amended.  I hope this clears it up for  you.

     I could not help but notice that you appear to be rather centered on the
idea that there would be such a thing as leading UFO researchers. You have made
the leap into the idea that this is a self-serving statement on my part. To the
best of my knowledge when the definition of abductions was conceived it was not
done in consultation with Dick Haines, John Carpenter, John E. Mack, Budd
Hopkins, or Dave Jacobs.  I  understand that Rodeghier had a perfect right to
say anything that he  wanted to in print.  I also think that he could have
avoided quite a lot  of imprecision and problems if he had consulted with those
individuals,  and others.

     I certainly agree with your sentiments about sharing data and  publishing
in refereed journals.  In the United States there are only two refereed
journals that publish pro-abduction material, THE JOURNAL OF UFO STUDIES and
THE JOURNAL OF SCIENTIFIC EXPLORATION.  Every once in a  while a psychological
journal will publish an article showing how UFOs or  abductions are related to
some other phenomenon, but for the main the  normal channels of scientific
information sharing are closed off to UFO  reseachers.  The same is true in the
book publishing world.  You might be  aware of the fact that my first book, THE
UFO CONTROVERSY IN AMERICA,  remains the only authored book on UFOs that takes
a pro-UFO stance ever to be published by a refereed press--and that was in
1975!  I originally  gave my manuscript for SECRET LIFE to Temple University
Press--a very  good press. They had it for three months and never even bothered
to look  at it.  So the situation for abduction and UFO articles in refereed
journals and presses remains fairly dismal.  But, I am sure that you will  join
with me in hoping that the quality of our work will increase and  that the
arbitrary decisions of the refereed journals and presses will  become more
liberal so that we can meet in the middle and have a wider spread of scientific
information.

     Finally, although I agree that a certain amount of information can be
derived from conscious recollections of abduction material, I feel that  being
deprived of the very powerful weapon of hypnosis which is so uniquely suited
for this type of work, places you are at a distinct  disadvantage.  Until
Australian researchers learn to work around this  problem, and there are ways
to do this, or until medical professionals  not only get interested in the
situation but also learn enough about  doing research in it to be competent at
it, abduction research will be  enormously more difficult in an area that is
already extremely difficult.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Workshops
Date: 8 Jul 92 17:06:00 GMT


 DJ>     John, the workshops arfe being given to interested
 DJ> psychiatrists,  psychologists, and psychiatric social
 DJ> workers who mailed in a special  card that was included in
 DJ> the Roper Poll booklet.

  Sounds _very_ worthwhile. I hope those docs are curious enough to set
aside their preconceived notions and pay attention.

                                        jbh

--
John Hicks - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Doug Morrow)
Subject: Omega Project
Date: 10 Jul 92 22:16:00 GMT

David,

I have finished his book, and I am surprised that you feel it was
ill concieved. From my understanding, he was trying to demonstrate
that individuals who have UFO encounters and others that have NDEs
share a number of common traits. It seemed that his statistical
study did support that conclusion.

Do you fault his basic hypothsis, his methods or his analysis? It
seemed to me that all have some measure of value, and that it may be
to early to dismiss his ideas and findings outright.

Also, you said that he did not find any evidence of Fantasy Prone
Personalities in his studies, which is true, but he did find what he
called "Encounter" Prone Personalities. Do you accept that there may
be something to that, or are you convinced that few abductees share
any similar, pre-existing psychological traits?

Thanks,    Doug
--
Doug Morrow - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Ambiguities
Date: 11 Jul 92 05:57:01 GMT


 +      I certainly agree with your sentiments about sharing data and
 + publishing in refereed journals.  In the United States there are only
 + two  refereed journals that publish pro-abduction material, THE JOURNAL
 + OF  UFO STUDIES and THE JOURNAL OF SCIENTIFIC EXPLORATION.  Every once
 + in a  while a psychological journal will publish an article showing how
 + UFOs or  abductions are related to some other phenomenon, but for the
 + main the  normal channels of scientific information sharing are closed
 + off to UFO  reseachers.  The same is true in the book publishing world.
 + You might be  aware of the fact that my first book, THE UFO CONTROVERSY
 + IN AMERICA,  remains the only authored book on UFOs that takes a pro-UFO
 + stance ever  to be published by a refereed press--and that was in 1975!
 + I originally  gave my manuscript for SECRET LIFE to Temple University
 + Press--a very  good press.  They had it for three months and never even
 + bothered to look  at it.  So the situation for abduuction and UFO
 + articles in refereed  journals and presses remains fairly dismal.  But,
 + I am sure that you will  join with me in hoping that the quality of our
 + work will increase and
 +  that the arbitrary decisions of the refereed journals and presses will
 + become more liberal so that we can meet in the middle and have a wider
 + spread of scientific information.

David.  I am wondering what should be done by the legit UFO researchers to
bring this problem to bear in the right arenas?  I agree:  Temple University
is a fine press.  Given your status there, what could they possibly say to
justify their inaction for publishing your material?

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Bill Skiles)
Subject: Who is an abductee?
Date: 10 Jul 92 03:38:00 GMT

+ The people who, in my judgement, are not abductees I do not work with.
+ It is extremely important to screen each and every potential abductee so that
+ the researcher knows what he or she is actually researching.
+ It is also important to be very careful about how one does the screening.

David, is there any way a person can screen themselves,
so that they don't have to bother researchers unless and/or
until they can acertain that they are an abductee?

Bill

--
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                          Abduction Digest, Number 68

                             Monday, July 20th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                               The MIT Conference
                               Who is an abductee?
                                   Ambiguities
                                     Bonding
                                  Omega Project
                                   Legitimacy
                                    Screening
                               The MIT Conference
                                    Received
                                    Screening

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Anson Kennedy)
Subject: The MIT Conference
Date: 15 Jul 92 04:45:00 GMT

I am not sure if you get the Paranet Skeptics Conference (I hope you do, I'm
the moderator :-)

Anyway, I have started a thread there about the recent conference at MIT.
Specifically, I am concerned about the confidentiality agreement all
participants were required to sign.

If you could pop on over and lend your (firsthand) thoughts on the matter, I'd
appreciate it.

Thanks.

                                     -- Anson

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pony Godic)
Subject: Who is an abductee?
Date: 14 Jul 92 23:41:00 GMT


 >      It is also important to be very careful about how one does
 > the  screening.  One must be careful not to throw the baby out
 > with the  bathwater.  Inexperienced researchers have said that
 > good abduction cases
 >  were a hoax because various aspects of the case were found to
 > be  contradictory or the witness was not as helpful as the
 > investigator  desired.  What is even more important, is that the
 > abduction phenomenon  is extremely widespread and its hints and
 > clues can be easily overlooked  by even the most experienced UFO
 > investigators.  My best guess is that  thousands of abduction
 > events are couched behind UFO sightings and have  been filed
 > away in the cabinets of hundreds of UFO researchers over the
 > years.

David,
Thank you for your reply in its entirety, it was of considerable interest to
me.  However, I do remain concerned over how often there's actually a baby in
the bathwater.  Clearly I am not an abductee, but I think, considering I
sometimes wake up in the night like I've been switched on, plus the fact that I
have long dreamed about UFOs (classic wish fullfilment dreams.  The UFO is
always a neon blue with neon pink windows.  The one time I recall going on
board , the aliens were bipedal ant-like creatures.) I could very easily
convince myself that I am an abductee.  Again, I stress that I have seen cases
so compelling in every way that I am definitely not saying abductions don't
happen.  I just question the very rubbery indicators. Also, I worry that people
like me, and I think the majority of people have had small and interesting
things happen to them, may pick something out from background experiences such
as I outlined and decide that this one thing is not imaginatively generated.
For example, it's definitely not an everyday event, nevertheless, it's not
extraordinary for me to see things that aren't there, particularly to wake and
see people standing by the bed at night.  I went through a small series of
bedroom visitors about ten years ago.  One night I woke and saw a nun in a
discoloured grey-blue heshan type of habit, which covered her face, standing up
by Vladimir's head.  She reminded me of a situation in a TV show I saw once,
not a person.  Then on another night, around the same time, I saw a man with a
lantern down by the door.  He was like the aliens in "This Island Earth" and
his lantern reminded me of the Hermit in the Tarot.  Then, around the same
time, I turned over in bed one night and saw Vladimir up in the air and, while
I was thinking why's he up there, he started very slowly and steadily floating
down towards the bed at which point I realized he was still in bed.  The body
above merged with the body below.  I was enormously tempted to think I'd really
seen Vladimir's astral body returning to his physical body, but, despite its
content, this hallucination was no different to any of the others.  So,
objectively, I realized it was generated from the same source - my imagination.
 The point of relating this is that the general public have been exposed to an
enormous amount of abduction data.  For example, someone who has an imagination
that's inclined to escape out into the outside world like mine, could absorb a
mini series like "Intruders" and, a few months later, generate an abduction
type experience that seemed so plausible to them, becuase of what they've been
seeing and hearing, that they'd believe that this event was reality.  This is
why I wonder how often there's a baby in the bathwater.
Cheers, Pony

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: Ambiguities
Date: 15 Jul 92 01:25:00 GMT


 > Vladmir, I hope that we are finally moving to concensus.  To
 > clear up  your puzzlement, I had assumed that if you adhered to
 > the Rodeghier  definition of abductees, then it would
 > automatically mean that you agreed  with propostion that anybody
 > who claims to be an abductee is therefore an  abductee.  That is
 > what the Rodgehier definition allows.  If you do not  feel that
 > this is the case, then you and I are in agreement that the
 > Rodeghier definition should be amended.  I hope this clears it
 > up for  you.

Again, interesting footwork.  You attempt to place me in a position from which
I agree with you no matter what I say.  Well I don't.  I find it disturbing to
see how easily you draw unfounded conclusion.

 >      I could not help but notice that you appear to be rather
 > centered on  the idea that there would be such a thing as
 > leading UFO researchers.   You have made the leap into the idea
 > that this is a self-serving  statement on my part.  To the best
 > of my knowledge when the definition of  abductions was conceived
 > it was not done in consultation with Dick  Haines, John
 > Carpenter, John E. Mack, Budd Hopkins, or Dave Jacobs.  I
 > understand that Rodeghier had a perfect right to say anything
 > that he  wanted to in print.  I also think that he could have
 > avoided quite a lot  of imprecision and problems if he had
 > consulted with those individuals,  and others.
 >

More interesting psychological footwork.  Why the unrelenting assault on
Mark Rodeghier?


 >      I certainly agree with your sentiments about sharing data
 > and  publishing in refereed journals.  In the United States
 > there are only two  refereed journals that publish pro-abduction
 > material, THE JOURNAL OF  UFO STUDIES and THE JOURNAL OF
 > SCIENTIFIC EXPLORATION.  Every once in a  while a psychological
 > journal will publish an article showing how UFOs or  abductions
 > are related to some other phenomenon, but for the main the
 > normal channels of scientific information sharing are closed off
 > to UFO  reseachers.  The same is true in the book publishing
 > world.  You might be  aware of the fact that my first book, THE
 > UFO CONTROVERSY IN AMERICA,  remains the only authored book on
 > UFOs that takes a pro-UFO stance ever  to be published by a
 > refereed press--and that was in 1975!  I originally  gave my
 > manuscript for SECRET LIFE to Temple University Press--a very
 > good press.  They had it for three months and never even
 > bothered to look  at it.  So the situation for abduuction and
 > UFO articles in refereed  journals and presses remains fairly
 > dismal.  But, I am sure that you will  join with me in hoping
 > that the quality of our work will increase and that the arbitrary
 >  decisions of the refereed journals and
 > presses will  become more liberal so that we can meet in the
 > middle and have a wider  spread of scientific information.
 >
 >      Finally, although I agree that a certain amount of
 > information can be  derived from conscious recollections of
 > abduction material,  I feel that   being deprived of the very
 > powerful weapon of hypnosis which is so  uniquely suited for
 > this type of work, places you are at a distinct  disadvantage.
 > Until Australian researchers learn to work around this  problem,
 > and there are ways to do this, or until medical professionals
 > not only get interested in the situation but also learn enough
 > about  doing research in it to be competent at it, abduction
 > research will be  enormously more difficult in an area that is
 > already extremely difficult.

I don't think hypnosis is a fits all tool with which to investigate abductions,
especially when it's not done by professionals.  I'm not saying it's not
without application, but I would far rather it were used as a last resort when
all other options have been exhausted. From what I've seen, abductions are
often mixed with a history of paranormal phenomena, abusive childhoods and
other factors that are excluded when evaluating the abduction itself.  I'm not
saying that a person with psychic ability or from an abusive background can't
also be abducted, but it seems to me that when strongly present, the abduction
experience must at least be evaluated with regards to whether such things have
coloured the interpretation or, even contributed to the experience, possibly
even generated it.  From what I've seen, there's a tendency to eliminate such
background static in favour of a single clear picture - i.e. the abduction
only.  It would seem to me that there's a tendency by some to define the
abduction experience in accordance with their own viewpoint.  This blinkers them
to the extent that any other experiences not conforming to this viewpoint are
eliminated from the evaluation process. Unfortunately, such a working position
results in these individuals displaying intolerance to anyone who adopts a
different approach.  I suspect they feel very threatened by such people as
Mark Rodeghier and others.

--
Vladimir Godic - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Bonding
Date: 13 Jul 92 07:59:19 GMT


    I am gratified that you picked up on the importance of the bonding
procedures that are administered to abductees.  I feel fairly certain  that
these procedures, and others, are responsible for a lot of the  feelings of
benevolence and positivness that some abductees feel.  I have  also been
examining the role of sexual feelings elicited in these  procedures and they
might also play a role.  Unfortunately, I am also  aware of  some procedures in
which the hypnotist can lead the subject  into falsely feeling quite good about
their situation thereby preventing  an adequate coming-to-terms with the
phenomenon, in a therapeutic sense. I think that it all points to how
complicated the abduction phenomenon  is, not only in exactly what happens,
but also in how the events are  recovered.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Omega Project
Date: 15 Jul 92 07:22:19 GMT


    I have not read Ring's book and it may be different than his article.   All
I can say is that the study that he conducted for the article was so  terribly
flawed that it demonstrated very little and proved nothing.  The  basis of his
article was a thinly disquised idea that NDE and UFO  abductions had the same
origin.  Not only is this idea somewhat  nonsensical on the face of it, but the
population that he used to do his  study was fatally flawed and the indices he
used for his measurements  were also not very convincing, to say the least.
 Please read my article  for more details.

     I am afraid that this is the kind of study that obscures rather than
clarifies.  The main problem with Ring is that he had no real idea what  the
abduction phenomenon was all about when he began his study.  Not  knowing what
it was comprised of allowed him to engage in rather naive ideas about it that
fit in nicely with his NDE material.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Legitimacy
Date: 15 Jul 92 07:37:58 GMT


    When I suggested to my old publishers, Indiana University Press, that I was
going to do another book on UFOs, they were delighted.  They sent  me a signed
contract.  Then I began the abduction work and switched  heavily into the
abduction topic.  I sent the head of IUP a very  conservative chapter very
early on which in fact was the MUFON paper  called "The Consequences of
Nonexistence."  (A very different form of the  paper actually did appear in my
book six years later).  The paper was  about the psychological ramification of
the abduction phenomenon not  having an objective reality.  The head of IUP
immediately cancelled the  contract because I had deigned to suggest that there
was the possibility  that abductions might be real.

     Temple UP acted in much the same way.  The subject itself, no matter  how
it is presented is heavily steeped in ridicule.  Oh, I guess that a  university
press might publish something that was couched in academic  jargon and that was
heavily quantitative and so on.  But that is not the  book that I wanted to
write.  As long as the subject exists on the fringe  of respectability one can
expect that to be mirrored in the publishing  industry.

     Incidentally, I may be wrong, but I believe that only three books  have
ever been published by an academic press on UFOs: Menzel's first  book, FLYING
SAUCERS, published by Harvard UP, Sagan and Page's edited  book of AAAS
papers, UFOs: A SCIENTIFIC DEBATE, published by Cornell UP, and my first book.
However, all is not bleak.  About nine doctoral dissertations have been written
on UFO-related themes.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Screening
Date: 15 Jul 92 07:46:09 GMT


    I guess it is possible to screen yourself, but it would be very, very
difficult.  Most people do not know what has happened to them and choose
those things that the society allows to have happened to them, like  seeing a
"ghost" and so forth.  It does take a trained individual who has  heard these
stories many times before and who understands what might be  behind them to do
the screening.  But this is all part of the abduction  package.  Not knowing
what has happened to one is part of the  clandestine activity that has
characterized the abduction and UFO  phenomenon since the beginning.  The
secrecy procedures are very  effective.  When they do not want someone to know
what has happened to him, they are quite good at covering the memory, screening
the memory,  erasing the memory, and so forth.  It is not a perfect science,
however,  and people do in fact remember all sorts of things. But it difficult,
very difficult.  I plan to write an article on secrecy shortly and  perhaps
offer some new directions in thinking about it.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: The MIT Conference
Date: 19 Jul 92 09:30:38 GMT

Hello Anson!

 AK> I am not sure if you get the Paranet Skeptics Conference (I hope you do,

What is the exact echo area name so I can areafix it here?  Thanks.


--
Steve Rose - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Bill Skiles)
Subject: Received
Date: 17 Jul 92 07:50:00 GMT

Dear David,

     Received the package in the mail. Thank You. Will send it back to you
asap. BTW, I just received some literature about the IF Foundation. In it, they
said that if you write to them they will send you the location of the nearest
hypnotherapist. It stated that the staff there would help you to find one. Do
you know if this is true? Should I look into it or just continue `moving
forward' with you?

     Thank you for your time. Just a dialouge with someone helps. Still having
difficulties.

                                      Bill

--
Bill Skiles - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Bill Skiles)
Subject: Screening
Date: 18 Jul 92 10:39:00 GMT

> I guess it is possible to screen yourself, but it
> would be very, very difficult.

Let me try and say it plainly.

What advice would you give to a person that is not able to contact a
hypnotherapist or can't afford one? What tips, techniques, suggestions or
advice can you give a person to help them remember or to bring up memories.
What about self-hypnosis. What about a means to quiet some of the anxiety so
that they can get some sleep? Any thoughts?

Bill

--
Bill Skiles - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 69

                           Wednesday, July 29th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                    Bathwater
                                    Problems
                                    Vacation
                          Common Factors in Abudctees?
                                     Hopkins

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Bathwater
Date: 20 Jul 92 08:09:53 GMT


    Pony, thanks for your message. I quite agree that there are people who have
hallucinations, who are delusional, who have vivid dreams, and so forth.  My
guess is that much of the world is bathwater.  But the  point of abduction
research, to a degree, is to make sure that a baby has  not been thrown out
with it.  There is strong evidence to suggest that  UFO researchers, unaware of
the abduction phenomenon, simply chalked up  much of their more puzzling cases
to mental aberrations.  I know that I  am guilty of doing this when I was doing
sighting investigations many  years ago.  I strongly suspect that many others
have done the same  thing.

     Incidentally, we have very good evidence to show that unusual or anomalous
experiences do not happen to everybody.  Budd Hopkins and I  contracted with
the Roper Poll organization and conducted a systematic  survey of 6,000 people
in the U.S. to determine just how many of them had  had ten different types of
anomalous experience.  The numbers ranged from  about seven percent to about 23
percent.  The point is that the vast  majority of people do not have the
experiences that you have related.  I  must admit, I have had nothing out of
the ordinary ever happen to me, but  who knows what might happen tomorrow.
     Best Wishes
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Problems
Date: 21 Jul 92 08:02:37 GMT


    I have the highest regard for Mark Rodeghier whom I have known for  many
years.  We discussed the definition at the MIT conference and he  agreed that
something about investigations should be added to it.  He  defended his not
asking others about the definition, and we disagreed  about this.

     I am afraid that I am going to have to cease communication with you.  Your
relentless hostility to virtually anything I say is inappropriate to  this
friendly bulletin board.  I am not sure what your problem is, but  accusing me
of using a psychological ploy, or psychological footwork, and  the like, is
childish and insulting.  If you wish to learn about the  abduction phenomenon
as I, and my colleague Budd Hopkins have confronted  it, then communication may
go forward.  However, the conversation as it  has been recently constituted is
something in which I have no desire to  participate.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Vacation
Date: 24 Jul 92 08:13:23 GMT


    I'll be going on vacation in Cape Cod for a few weeks starting July  25.
When I return I'll try to get to the rest of the messages that I  have not
responded to yet.  Cheers.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Common Factors in Abudctees?
Date: 26 Jul 92 00:14:00 GMT

David,
        I'm enjoying your book very much and have been discussing it
with good friends as I progress through the pages.  In those talks
much appreciation has been expressed for the logical and analytical
way you've approached defining the abduction experience -- it's
rather like the definition of encounters (first, second, third kind,
etc) in its clarity and, actually, simplicty.  This is an essential
step that other researchers seem to have overlooked in their zeal to
tell whichever story they're reporting on in their current books.
But a question has arisen too and I'm hoping you can provide some
insight on it as well.  Given that there are standard events at each
stage of the abductee phenomena, there is obviously pattern
involved.  Is there also pattern in the selection of the abductees?
That is, do they have anything in common?  Has anyone collated the
data on all the abductees to see (as you've done with the abductee
phenomena itself) what things are shared in common and what things
are not?  If we could say that, for instance, abductees are:
        age 0-52
        caucasian, black, hispanic [but not asian]
        well nourished [not undernourished -- no anorexics]
        not obese [the opposite defect to undernourished]
        not bearded though some may wear moustaches
and so on...whatever might be accurate, perhaps we could learn
something about what kind of people are being selected and if we
could learn that, perhaps we could begin to understand why.  If the
"abductees are" category is too broad, the reverse might work:
"abductees are not:" (no one with the following is known to have
been abducted--or people who have been abducted don't/aren't the
following:)
        over age 52
        asian, eskimo, american indian
        more than 20 pounds under normal weight for their height
        more than 30 pounds over normal weight for their height
        totally bald
        extremely hirsute
...
These are merely examples, of course, and are not intended to
suggest that any of this is factual but merely to serve as starting
points for discussion.
        Could something like this be achieved?  Or do you believe
the selection of "victims" is totally random and never a matter of
selection (apart from trying to find people who are not in large
crowds.)  One person in our discussion mentioned she had never read
of abductees -- among those who describe seeing other human
abductees in the same area where they're taken and examined -- who
reported being in the company of fellow abductees who are
handicapped, obese, wearing a cast or similar medical protective
device, blind, etc.  *If* that proved to be correct, it would
indicate there is active selection involved in choosing abduction
candidates, and if there's selection then there's a way to thwart it
(for those who'd want to.)
        I will welcome any comments you may find time to make,
understanding you're very busy.
        Thanks for your interest.
                                ==Peggy
--
Peggy Noonan - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Hopkins
Date: 27 Jul 92 03:03:04 GMT

What have you heard about the latest from Budd Hopkins?

"I will be presenting what I believe to be the most important case for
establishing the objective reality of UFO abductions that I have yet
encountered.  It concerns the abduction, in November of 1989, of a woman
from her twelfth floor apartment in New York City.  This event was
apparently witnessed by at least 14 independent observers, four of whom
subsequently contacted me.  One of these witnesses is a major political
figure, two others are security men who were traveling with him, and the
fourth is a wom an who happenned to be driving across the Brooklyn
Bridge while the abduction was occuring.  All four saw the UFO hovering
above the apartment building, a bluish-white beam of light shining down
from its underside, and watched the abductee, together with three
aliens, _floating in the light twelve stories above the street_.
[Emphasis BH]  (Budd Hopkins, An Open Letter from Budd Hopkins, MUFON
UFO Journal, Number 290, June 1992, Copyright 1992 by the Mutual UFO
Network, 103 Oldtowne Rd., Seq uin, Texas 78155 , published monthly with
a membership/subscription rate of $25/yr.)

Thanks, take care.
John.
-
<Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence>

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--
John Powell - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]


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********************End**of**the**Abduction**Newsletter************************


                          Abduction Digest, Number 70

                           Thursday, August 13th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                   Ambiguities
                                  Re: "Vision"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Ambiguities
Date: 31 Jul 92 09:10:00 GMT

Vlad:
      I was rather disappionted to read Prof. Jacobs' recent
response to you, which resulted from the "Missing Abductees"
thread.  I felt that your point about about his using "footwork"
(to characterize your previous statements as being in agreement
with his point -- when they weren't) was well-taken.

You have correctly pointed out that Prof. Jacobs seems to be
trying to portray himself and Budd Hopkins as *the authorities*
on abduction research.  This was underscored by the arrogant,
condescending and patronizing statement that:

> If you wish to learn about the abduction phenomenon as I,
> and my colleague, Budd Hopkins have confronted it, then
> communications can go forward.

In the earlier discussion concerning people who claimed to have
had an abduction experience in spite of the fact that there may
have been witnesses present who saw no abduction take place (i.e.
the Puddy case) Prof. Jacobs made this statement on May 27:

> Keith Basterfield has said that he has two cases of this
> happening, but my discussion with him about this and my
> research into one of his cases suggests that he is in error
> on both accounts.

On June 3, I posted a message to Prof. Jacobs asking him to
explain the basis for his conclusion that the conversation and
research on one of these cases could show that Keith was in error
on *both* accounts.  He never responded to this message.
Accordingly, I found his statement on June 28 to be very ironic
in this context:

> I believe that careful, systematic investigation of each
> and every case, regardless of claims and regardless even of
> consciously-recalled memories, is of the utmost importance.

Figure that!
Professor Jacobs seems to be used to discussing this topic with
people who are satisfied with unsupportable, conclusory
pronouncements, such as "FPP is a non-starter".  Perhaps he is
"in over his head" trying to continue an online discussion with
people such as yourself, who expect explanations for these
conclusions.

Let's face it:  Dr. Jacobs is a history professor and Budd
Hopkins is an artist.  They are not mental health professionals
or even scientists.  I do not mean to belittle their
contributions to our understanding of the abduction phenomenon.
They have been substantial, although we must realize that their
roles are those of anecdote collectors and organizers, who have
brought this subject (and their substantial database) to the
attention of the only people qualified to make sense of it:
mental health professionals.  Prof. Jacobs frequently points out
that most mental health professionals have no background or
familiarity with abduction research.  Nevertheless, he should
defer to the authority of mental health professionals when it
comes to trying to rule out a particular personality disorder or
other psycological problem in reaching a conclusion on any given
case.

There is no credibility in having a layperson render
psychological or psychiatric opinions which are included in any
given abduction case.  Similarly, I don't believe that people,
who are not licensed mental health professionals, should be
performing hypnosis on other people.  The Australian law is a
good one because it protects the unwitting public from having
their psychological well-being placed in the hands of an
incompetent.

Anyway, I hope that the discussions in this forum can continue in
a courteous and fruitful manner.  Jerry Clark's editorial in the
May/June _IUR_ is quite timely.  I was particularly impressed
with this noteworthy observation by "The Sage of Canby":

> And remember, whenever two persons agree absolutely,
> one of them is unnecessary.
                                        --  John

--
John Burke - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Tom Davis)
Subject: Re: "Vision"
Date: 10 Aug 92 16:51:00 GMT


  Two possibilities come readily to mind.  One interesting, the second
dangerous:  it is possible that you had a psychic experience of
undetermined cause; it is also possible that you may have suffered a
minor stroke - based on similar visual experiences of those I know who
have had such events.
  I would not presume to ask your age, but if you are 30 or over, I
would suggest mentioning the event to your family doctor - just to rule
out the possibility of a medical event.  If that pans out, why not try
a good hypnotheripist to relive the event for more detail?

--
Tom Davis - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 71

                            Monday, August 17th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                  Re: "Vision"
                                Selection factors
                            Return and Clarifications

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: "Vision"
Date: 16 Aug 92 18:12:00 GMT

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your reply about my vision of the stars and universe.  That
happened about 2 1/2 years ago, and I had no physical symptons of any
kind at the time.

I just had an EKG, check-up, etc. and am in pretty good shape for being
40-something.  :-)

Thanks for writing!

Best,

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Selection factors
Date: 12 Aug 92 07:32:18 GMT


    Thanks for your note Peggy.  We are not sure of the selection factor  for
abductees.  My best guess is that it was originally random probably  at the
beginning of the century or thereabouts.  Through natural  population increase,
marriages, divorces, remarriages and so forth, the  population of abductees
expanded in a cone-like effect.  So that while it  might have started
relatively small, it is now relatively extensive.

     Our population is not large enough to include everybody in it. For example
I know of no Eskimos who are abductees.  That is not to say that  there are
none, but we have not yet seen any.  My own population includes  black, white,
Jewish, Christian, male, female, young, old, Hispanic, and  so forth.  But
there are so many different human groupings that we just  do not know if any
groups have been left out.  I have heard from  people who are Asian, Egyptian,
Iranian, and from other countries as  well, but I have not worked with them so
I guess they must remain in the  "potential" abductee category.

     I have also thought about the problem of gross physical disabilities  as
being underrepresented in the abductee population.  However, I have  recently
heard of an abductee who is a paraplegic, one who has  scleraderma, and several
others with serious medical problems.  So I  think that the more we learn about
the abductee population the more it  might include all groups suggesting once
again that it might indeed be  random.

     Ultimately, the only way to determine if the group is random is to do
extensive medical analyses of bones, blood, genes, and everything else.   This
has not been done so far but it is something that I believe must be  done in
the future.  Right now  there is nothing overt--weight, size, facial  hair, and
so forth--that would set abductees off from the rest of the  population.  The
only significant factor that we can find that determines  if a person is an
abductee is whether one or both of his or her parents  were abductees as well.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Return and Clarifications
Date: 13 Aug 92 22:17:34 GMT


    I'm back in town for a few days and on August 19 I will be going to England
for about ten days.  I will give a few lectures there thanks to the help of
Stuart Smith and Steve Gamble.  One will be in Manchester and  one will be in
London.  I am looking forward to describing my research  and probably fanning
the fires of controversy.

     I would like to take a few minutes to discuss the curent controversy  that
has arisen with a few of the Paranet members.  When I was asked to be moderator
of the abduction bulletin board, I was asked to respond to questions about the
current state of abduction research in general and my own findings in
particular. There was no doubt in my mind that I was going to be controversial.
After all this is an extremely controversial subject and because methodology
has not yet been standardized, other  researchers may well have difficulties
with my results because they have  not found the same things.  I expected a
lively give and take and in the  main this has been the case.  I think that my
exchanges with Keith  Basterfield are good examples of that give and take. (I
will have more to  say about the Puddy case in an upcoming IUR--if I can get
the time to  write it up).  A few people, however, have decided that exchanges
over the material are not adequate for debate and have resorted to critically
picking apart my messages.  This is often not too difficult because I
 usually log on to the BBS late at night when I am too tired to continue  my
work.  I write my messages off the top of my head and send them.   There are
bound to be contradictions and ambiguities.  I am fair game for  those who
delight in pointing these out.  I am not, however, fair game  for personal
attacks and I will not abide by them--I have had enough of  those from the
lunatic fringe debunkers to last a life time, thank you very  much.  I hope
that this will be my last word on the subject and that we can get back to
discussing in a reasonable and rational way the mysteries  of the enormously
important abduction phenomenon.
 Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.2


--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 72

                            Friday, August 21st 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                Selection Factors
                                  Mail Problems
                                 EARLY ABDUCTION
                            Return and Clarifications

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Selection Factors
Date: 17 Aug 92 23:27:03 GMT

Hello David,
        What an interesting and thoughtful reply that was!  Thank
you so much!
        I have wondered about the handicapped abductee problem and,
since the last time I posted to you here, it occurred to me that
perhaps the reason they're underreported might have something to do
with the "nobody will believe me" factor.  In such a vulnerable
position to begin with (as, say, a person confined to a motorized
wheelchair might be, for one example) I can appreciate how that
person might feel very chary of mentioning anything that could
possibly compromise his or her independence.  That is, "they" let
you live your own life independently *provided* you demonstrate that
you don't need supervision.  If such a person were to report any
form of UFO event, it might call his or her mental stability into
question and that would entail a much greater risk than the non-
handicapped person would face in reporting UFO events.
        So, perhaps these events are less often reported because the
disbelief scale is more dangerous for these people.  It is
interesting, however, that you say that now some cases are coming
in.  It has been my understanding from reading books such as your
own that eventually the burden of a UFO experience, even if not
consciously remembered, becomes so great that the person to whom
this experience has happened feels compelled beyond all self-will to
act on it, either to "erase" it by what some call "confession" or to
understand it, to try to discover what is at the root of certain
"aberrations" or similar roads leading to the same destination.
        Of course, if "They" were sampling all the population,
they'd surely include in their random harvest all types they could
obtain.  Perhaps it might be a higher degree of difficulty to
harvest disabled people, either because they may be attended by
others or because they tend not to arrive in the remote or
semi-remote locations which UFOs seem to prefer for harvest sites.
        Perhaps you noticed some months ago that I had posted a
short newspaper item called "Alien Chocolate."  This was an item
from a local weekly about a UFO group in the Pacific Northwest led
by John Strongbow in which J.S. said that aliens were harvesting
humans to obtain something called "adrenal-chrom" but that they
avoided people who smoked, ate garlic or chocolate, or consumed
alcohol because those things somehow tainted the "adrenal-chrom."  I
have not spoken to Strongbow (yet) so I don't know what evidence he
might have, but I wonder if there is such a preference selection in
force.  I cannot recall any of the abductees mentioning that they
smoked, for instance, but it's quite a stretch to think *none* had
consumed either chocolate or garlic, or had imbibed alcohol in a
reasonable time prior to the event.  Still, it makes one wonder.
        Is there a computerized registry which stores and compares
data from UFO contact reports?  If so, that would make it much
easier to cross-check and rule out factors such as physical defects
or even mental ones.
        Yours was a most interesting reply and will give much food
for thought.  Thank you very much.
                                        ==Peggy
--
Peggy Noonan - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!csn![e-mail]
Subject: Mail Problems
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:34:26 GMT

From: Roger Black <csn![e-mail]>

Every time we mail out one of the ParaNet digests, a number of copies
are returned to us as undeliverable.  The reasons for this are as
varied as modern computer technology can make them, including:

  - the recipient's account no longer exists
  - the recipient's disk quota is exhausted
  - the recipient's mail is being forwarded to a nonexistent address
  - the host machine's spool disk is full
  - the host machine's name server has lost its memory
  - the host machine is temporarily unavailable
  - the host machine is permanently shut down
  - an intervening network or router is down
  - an intervening mail gateway has gone insane
  - somebody's security program has run amok

and so on, ad infinitum.  Such problems sometimes persist literally for
months on end, apparently without the subscriber being aware of what is
going on.  When that happens, they may be missing not only the digest
but potentially lots of other important things as well.

When mail bounces back to us, we make every effort to contact the
intended recipient, either directly or through the site's postmaster.
But it has often happened that, despite our best efforts, we simply
cannot find any way to contact the person we are trying to reach.  When
that happens, we have no choice but to remove them from the mailing
list.

Usually, after a couple of weeks we receive an anxious note from the
subscriber asking what happened to the digest.  Most of the time this
means that whatever problem existed has now been corrected, and we
immediately restore them to the list.  However, we have seen situations
where a subscriber could send mail but not receive it.  As a result, we
kept getting increasingly impatient and frustrated notes from someone
we couldn't respond to--which frustrated us as well.

So if the digest ever stops arriving for what seems like an unusually
long time, try sending us a note.  If we don't respond in a couple of
days, ask yourself how long it has been since you received ANY mail
from outside your local site.  If necessary, ask someone else on the
net to send you some test mail, or contact your local postmaster to see
if there is some kind of problem.  You may be doing yourself a favor,
as well as us.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pony Godic)
Subject: EARLY ABDUCTION
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:15:00 GMT


In FORTEAN TIMES Issues 1-15 (1973-1976), a volume that I would highly
recommend to anyone with a serious interest in the paranormal, I found the following, whilst browsing:

>From a letter to the Manchester Evening News, 20 Nov 68.
(Credit: Peter Rogerson).

"When my family were young we spent many happy years camping in (the upper
reaches of the River Wharfe in Yorkshire).  Mr Reay (an article on that area
appeared by him in the M.E.N., the previous Saturday) says that there is a
wonderful air of mystery about it all, an air of `farawayness and remoteness,'
and I too would describe the place as spooky.  I will never forget on one
occasion when we had climbed up over the moors.  The children played around,
while my wife and I rested among the heather, basking in the sunshine.  Whether
I dozed off or not, I do not know, but suddenly I became aware that my wife was
not with us.  I called the children and asked them where she had gone, but they
could not tell me anything - I got the queerest impression that she had been
spirited away by the `fairies' - there was nowhere on the moors that she could
have hidden, and I began to get panicky. This district has that effect on one -
the isolation and peace of the place give one the impression that unearthy
(sic) things could happen. It is the weirdest place I know.

"We began to get really worried, and even Paddy, our dog, who always
accompanied us on our outings, started to whimper and appeared very distressed.
Suddenly, apparently from nowhere, my wife was with us again, and there was a
faraway smile on her face.  We questioned her as to where she had been, but she
could offer no explanation, and had no recollection of having been away from us
at all.  There is no doubt in my mind that something very odd had happened -
something associated with the `farawayness and remoteness' of the place."

Since this letter appeared in 1968 and its writer referred to an earlier time
when his children were young, this incident would appear to predate the modern
abduction era by some years.  I know it's a very long shot, but does anyone
know any more about the above?

Anyone interested in purchasing the FORTEAN TIMES Issues 1-15 (1973-1976)
volume or in subscribing to the magazine itself, can write to:

                    Fortean Times
                    20 Paul St
                    Frome
                    Somerset BA11 1DX
                    U.K.

--
Pony Godic - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: Return and Clarifications
Date: 21 Aug 92 04:02:00 GMT


 +      I would like to take a few minutes to discuss the curent
 + controversy  that has arisen with a few of the Paranet members.
 + When I was asked to  be moderator of the abduction bulletin
 + board, I was asked to respond
 +  to questions about the current state of abduction research in
 + general and
 +  my own findings in particular.  There was no doubt in my mind
 + that I was  going to be controversial.  After all this is an
 + extremely controversial
 +  subject and because methodology has not yet been standardized,
 + other  researchers may well have difficulties with my results
 + because they have  not found the same things.  I expected a
 + lively give and take and in the  main this has been the case.  I
 + think that my exchanges with Keith  Basterfield are good
 + examples of that give and take. (I will have more to  say about
 + the Puddy case in an upcoming IUR--if I can get the time to
 + write it up).  A few people, however, have decided that
 + exchanges over  the material are not adequate for debate and
 + have resorted to critically  picking apart my messages.  This is
 + often not too difficult because I
 +  usually log on to the BBS late at night when I am too tired to
 + continue  my work.  I write my messages off the top of my head
 + and send them.   There are bound to be contradictions and
 + ambiguities.  I am fair game for  those who delight in pointing
 + these out.  I am not, however, fair game  for personal attacks
 + and I will not abide by them--I have had enough of  those from
 + the lunatic fringe debunkers to last a life time, thank you very
 +  much.  I hope that this will be my last word on the subject and
 + that we can get back to discussing in a reasonable and rational way the
 + mysteries  of the enormously important abduction phenomenon.

    AMEN!!!!

--
Vladimir Godic - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 73

                           Monday, September 7th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                          Re: RETURN AND CLARIFICATIONS

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: RETURN AND CLARIFICATIONS
Date: 1 Sep 92 15:37:01 GMT

After reading your message about detractors etc. I have to admit I don't
lnow much about your specialty, nor do I really have a strong feeling for
it's validity. That's why I appreciate your replys to others and the input
effort you contribute to this echo. Keep up the good work and keep presenting
your studies and information. Just because I don't know enough to agree or
disagree, doesn't mean I can't appreciate your reasonable scientific approach
to a controversial subject. And as the "Old Professor" used to say... "Never
give up, never give up, never give up!" 8*)
--
Pete Porro - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 74

                          Monday, September 21st 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                   Environment
                                Selection Factors

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Rhodes)
Subject: Environment
Date: 14 Sep 92 07:09:00 GMT

I found this interesting article that seems to confirm some
alien statements reported by abducties.
Article in ROCKY MOUNTAIN NEWS 11 Sept. 1992 pg.3


SPERM COUNTS DECLINING, GLOBAL STUDY INDICATES
Environment to blames,
fertility experts suggest.
Associated Press
   LONDON-Average sperm count in healthy men has dropped by half
in the past 50 years, according to a global review of 61 studies
covering 14,947 men.
     Experts say the study, directed by Dr. Niels Skakkebaek, of
the University of Copenhagen, lends credence to speculation that
environmental pollutants may damage production of sperm cells.
     "I think there is cause for concern," said Dr. Richard Sharpe,
a respected reproductive biologist at the University of Edinburgh.
"If there is something in our environment having an effect that is
drastic enough to decrease sperm count by 50%, we should know what
this factor is."
     Conflicting results have emerged from previous studies.
Skakkebaek, whose findings are published in the Sept 13 issue of
the British Medical Journal, said his review was the first to
collect worldwide statistics and limit the analysis to healthy men.
     "It would have to be something in the environment or
lifestyle." said Skakkebaek. a professor of growth and
reproduction. "Changes that occur within a generation could hardly
be due to a change in genetic background."
     He said a woman's exposure to environmental toxins during
pregnancy may thwart development of a male fetus' sperm cells.
     Skakkebaek said investigators had reviewed all international
scientific studies on semen analysis of healthy men from 1938 to
1990. They found average sperm count declined from 133 million
sperm per milliliter in the 1940's to 60 million per milliliter in
the 1990's.
     Men who have fewer than 20 million sperm per milliliter are
considered infertile.
     Dr. Mark Cullen, director of occupational and environmental
medicine at Yale University, noted that a few studies suggest that
stress may slow sperm production.
--
John Rhodes - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Vince Johnson)
Subject: Selection Factors
Date: 16 Sep 92 23:13:00 GMT

If I'm not mistaken, Adrenachrome was an invention by Dr. Hunter S.
Thompson to describe the ultimate drug experience. I assumed he was
joking...
Regards,
Vince
--
Vince Johnson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]


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                          Abduction Digest, Number 75

                           Monday, October 19th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                     Hopkins
                                   Survey, 1/7
                                   Survey, 2/7
                                   Survey, 3/7
                                   Survey, 4/7
                                   Survey, 5/7
                                   Survey, 6/7
                                   Survey, 7/7
                                   Survey, 7/7

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Hopkins
Date: 11 Oct 92 18:39:00 GMT


 -=> Quoting David Jacobs to John Powell <=-

 DJ> John, Budd has already begun to discuss some of his
 DJ> findings.  He is  publishing some material in MUFON journal
 DJ> and I hope that he will be able  to write a book about the
 DJ> case eventually.  He is still investigating the  case as it
 DJ> is ongoing and new developments are still coming forward.
 DJ> I  think that all shall be revealed in due course, but I
 DJ> cannot at this time give you a definite date.

Okay, I can live with that.  Just for the typing exercise I hope that he
defends the case in a timely manner regarding Klass-like attacks.  The
first round was rather brutal and it won't get any easier as things
progress.


Thanks, take care.
John.
-
<Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence>

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--
John Powell - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Survey, 1/7
Date: 11 Oct 92 18:50:10 GMT

_Unusual Personal Experiences:  Analysis of the Data from Three National
Surveys Conducted by the Roper Organization_, (1992, Bigelow Holding
Corporation, 4640 South Eastern, Las Vegas, NV 89119)  [The Roper
Organization, 205 East 42nd St., New York, NY 10017]

        "We did not fund this project for profit from sale of materials,
nor for any monetary gain, media involvement or publicity..."
                                                        - Robert Bigelow


How Often Has Occurrence Happenned To You?  [1]
___---------------------------------------

                                Summary List I
                                --------------
                                                       ______________    [2]
                                                      / Survey Date  \
                                                     / -------------  \
                                           Total    Jul     Aug     Sep
                                           -----   -----   -----   -----
                                          (5,947) (1,992) (1,983) (1,973)
                                             %       %       %       %
4) Waking up paralyzed with a sense of
   a strange person or presence or
   something else in the room?

        Has happenned                       18      20      17      17
                More than once   (a)         5       6       4       5
                Once or twice    (b)        13      14      13      12
        Has not happenned        (c)        81      79      82      83
                Don't know       (d)         1       1       1       *


10 Having seen, either as a child or as
   an adult, a terrifying figure - which
   might have been a monster, a witch,
   a devil, or some other evil figure
   in your bedroom, closet, or
   somewhere else.

        Has happenned                       15      17      14      13
                More than once               4       5       3       3
                Once or twice               11      12      11      10
        Has not happenned                   84      83      85      86
                Don't know                   1       1       2       1


2) Feeling as if you left your body.

        Has happenned                       14      17      12      12
                More than once               4       5       3       3
                Once or twice               10      12       9       9
        Has not happenned                   85      82      86      87
                Don't know                   1       1       1       1


7) Experiencing a period of time of an
   hour or more, in which you were
   apparently lost, but you could not
   remember why, or where you had been.

        Has happenned                       13      15      11      12
                More than once               4       4       2       3
                Once or twice               10      11       9       9
        Has not happenned                   85      84      88      88
                Don't know                   1       1       1       1


1) Seeing a ghost.

        Has happenned                       11      13      10      10
                More than once               3       4       2       3
                Once or twice                8       9       8       7
        Has not happenned                   88      86      88      89
                Don't know                   1       1       1       1


5) Feeling that you were actually flying
   through the air although you didn't
   know why or how.

        Has happenned                       10      12       9      11
                More than once               3       4       2       4
                Once or twice                7       8       7       7
        Has not happenned                   88      87      89      89
                Don't know                   1       1       1       *


8) Seen unusual lights or balls of light
   in a room without knowing what was
   causing them, or where they came from.

        Has happenned                        8      10       6       8
                More than once               2       2       1       2
                Once or twice                6       8       5       6
        Has not happenned                   91      90      92      92
                Don't know                   1       1       1       *


9) Finding puzzling scars on your body
   and neither you nor anyone else
   remembering how you received them
   or where you got them.

        Has happenned                        8       9       7       8
                More than once               2       2       2       3
                Once or twice                6       7       5       5
        Has not happenned                   91      90      92      92
                Don't know                   1       1       1       *


3) Seeing a UFO.

        Has happenned                        7       9       7       6
                More than once               1       2       1       1
                Once or twice                6       7       6       5
        Has not happenned                   92      90      92      91
                Don't know                   1       1       1       1


11) Having vivid dreams about UFOs.

        Has happenned                        5       6       4       5
                More than once               1       2       1       1
                Once or twice                4       4       3       4
        Has not happenned                   94      93      95      95
                Don't know                   1       1       1       1


6) Hearing or seeing the word TRONDANT
    and knowing that it has a secret
    meaning for you.  [3]

        Has happenned                        1       2       1       1
                More than once               *       *       *       *
                Once or twice                1       1       1       1
        Has not happenned                   97      96      97      998
                Don't know                   2       3       2       1

                                            * - indicates less than 0.5%


                        --------------------------


___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--
John Powell - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Survey, 2/7
Date: 11 Oct 92 18:50:12 GMT


                                Summary List II
                                ---------------

How Often Has Occurrence Happenned To You?
___---------------------------------------
                                                     PSA(s)/       - [4]
                                                   Influential
                                           Total    Americans
                                           -----   -----------
                                          (5,947)     (565)
                                             %          %
4) Waking up paralyzed with a sense of
   a strange person or presence or
   something else in the room?

        Has happenned                       18         28
                More than once               5          9
                Once or twice               13         19
        Has not happenned                   81         72
                Don't know                   1          *


10) Having seen, either as a child or as
   an adult, a terrifying figure - which
   might have been a monster, a witch,
   a devil, or some other evil figure
   in your bedroom, closet, or
   somewhere else.

        Has happenned                       15         19
                More than once               4          4
                Once or twice               11         15
        Has not happenned                   84         81
                Don't know                   1          1


2) Feeling as if you left your body.

        Has happenned                       14         23
                More than once               4          7
                Once or twice               10         16
        Has not happenned                   85         76
                Don't know                   1          *


7) Experiencing a period of time of an
   hour or more, in which you were
   apparently lost, but you could not
   remember why, or where you had been.

        Has happenned                       13         17
                More than once               4          4
                Once or twice               10         13
        Has not happenned                   85         82
                Don't know                   1          *


1) Seeing a ghost.

        Has happenned                       11         16
                More than once               3          5
                Once or twice                8         11
        Has not happenned                   88         84
                Don't know                   1          1


5) Feeling that you were actually flying
   through the air although you didn't
   know why or how.

        Has happenned                       10         18
                More than once               3          8
                Once or twice                7         10
        Has not happenned                   88         81
                Don't know                   1          1


8) Seen unusual lights or balls of light
   in a room without knowing what was
   causing them, or where they came from.

        Has happenned                        8         11
                More than once               2          8
                Once or twice                6          3
        Has not happenned                   91         89
                Don't know                   1          *


9) Finding puzzling scars on your body
   and neither you nor anyone else
   remembering how you received them
   or where you got them.

        Has happenned                        8          9
                More than once               2          3
                Once or twice                6          6
        Has not happenned                   91         91
                Don't know                   1          *


3) Seeing a UFO.

        Has happenned                        7         10
                More than once               1          1
                Once or twice                6          9
        Has not happenned                   92         89
                Don't know                   1          1


11) Having vivid dreams about UFOs.

        Has happenned                        5          6
                More than once               1          1
                Once or twice                4          5
        Has not happenned                   94         93
                Don't know                   1          1


6) Hearing or seeing the word TRONDANT
    and knowing that it has a secret
    meaning for you.

        Has happenned                        1          2
                More than once               *          1
                Once or twice                1          1
        Has not happenned                   97         97
                Don't know                   2          2

                                            * - indicates less than 0.5%


                        --------------------------


___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--
John Powell - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Survey, 3/7
Date: 11 Oct 92 18:50:14 GMT


                    Demographic Data - Card 1, Part 1  [5]
                    ---------------------------------

                                       Household Income        Education
            Sex            Age        ------------------- -------------------
        --------- -------------------       15M  30M      Non-
              Fe-  18-  30-  45-       Und  Und  Und       HS   HS  Some Coll
   Totl Male male  29   44   59   60+  15M  30M  50M 50M+ Grad Grad Coll Grad
   ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ====
T# 5947 2825 3122 1539 1916 1172 1321 1034 1455 1388  836 1186 2194 1389 1164
%# 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100%

Q#
___
1a  188   72  116   48   69   44   27   39   50   47   17   52   66   37   34
     3%   3%   4%   3%   4%   4%   2%   4%   3%   3%   2%   4%   3%   3%   3%

1b  488  229  259  164  163   95   67  105  123  137   56  121  161  128   77
     8%   8%   8%  11%   8%   8%   5%  10%   8%  10%   7%  10%   7%   9%   7%

1c 5225 2506 2720 1313 1673 1023 1216  880 1270 1199  760 1004 1945 1218 1049
    88%  89%  87%  85%  87%  87%  92%  85%  87%  86%  91%  85%  89%  88%  90%

1d   45   18   28   14   11   10   10   10   13    5    3    9   23    7    5
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%    *    *   1%   1%    *    *


2a  210   98  112   48   87   51   24   37   44   64   33   32   55   60   63
     4%   3%   4%   3%   5%   4%   2%   4%   3%   5%   4%   3%   3%   4%   5%

2b  610  299  311  156  237  125   93  106  143  148  109  102  203  172  133
    10%  11%  10%  10%  12%  11%   7%  10%  10%  11%  13%   9%   9%  12%  11%

2c 5066 2404 2662 1320 1576  983 1187  879 1252 1165  688 1040 1909 1148  957
    85%  85%  85%  86%  82%  84%  90%  85%  86%  84%  82%  88%  87%  83%  82%

2d   60   23   37   15   15   14   16   12   17   10    7   12   27    9   11
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%


3a   65   41   24   17   31   11    6   14   13   23    7   14   24   19    8
     1%   1%   1%   1%   2%   1%    *   1%   1%   2%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%

3b  366  201  165   98  147   74   47   57   93  105   54   54  142   99   71
     6%   7%   5%   6%   8%   6%   4%   5%   6%   8%   6%   5%   6%   7%   6%

3c 5447 2546 2901 1406 1716 1069 1256  949 1328 1246  770 1105 1996 1257 1079
    92%  90%  93%  91%  90%  91%  95%  92%  91%  90%  92%  93%  91%  90%  93%

3d   69   37   32   18   22   17   12   14   21   13    5   13   33   15    6
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   2%   1%   1%


4a  301  119  183   89  129   57   28   65   71   81   47   49  105   75   72
     5%   4%   6%   6%   7%   5%   2%   6%   5%   6%   6%   4%   5%   5%   6%

4b  773  342  431  253  273  137  109  162  197  198  102  156  278  193  143
    13%  12%  14%  16%  14%  12%   8%  16%  14%  14%  12%  13%  13%  14%  12%

4c 4833 2344 2489 1186 1505  968 1174  800 1178 1097  684  976 1788 1116  944
    81%  83%  80%  77%  79%  83%  89%  77%  81%  79%  82%  82%  81%  80%  81%

4d   40   20   20   11    9   10    9    7   10   12    3    5   23    5    5
     1%   1%   1%   1%    *   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%    *    *   1%    *    *


5a  201  116   85   34   89   40   38   32   31   57   41   37   62   49   64
     3%   4%   3%   2%   5%   3%   3%   3%   2%   4%   5%   2%   3%   4%   5%

5b  442  235  207  135  158   82   66   79  103  125   67   69  163  119   91
     7%   8%   7%   9%   8%   7%   5%   8%   7%   9%   8%   6%   7%   9%   8%

5c 5256 2453 2803 1354 1658 1037 1207  913 1307 1196  725 1080 1946 1214 1004
    88%  87%  90%  88%  87%  88%  91%  88%  90%  86%  87%  91%  89%  87%  86%

5d   49   21   27   16   11   12    9   10   15   10    2   10   24    8    6
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%    *   1%   1%   1%   1%


6a   18    9    9    2    9    4    3    3    6    9    1    2    4    9    3
      *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *   1%    *    *    *   1%    *

6b   53   33   20   15   22    9    7   14   10   17    4   13   23   13    5
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%    *

6c 5754 2730 3024 1485 1854 1139 1276  979 1410 1342  819 1142 2111 1349 1141
    97%  97%  97%  96%  97%  97%  97%  95%  97%  97%  98%  96%  96%  97%  98%

6d  122   53   69   37   32   20   34   38   30   20   12   29   56   19   16
     2%   2%   2%   2%   2%   2%   3%   4%   2%   1%   1%   2%   3%   1%   1%


7a  171   93   78   49   65   29   28   45   36   44   22   42   59   38   32
     3%   3%   3%   3%   3%   3%   2%   4%   2%   3%   3%   4%   3%   3%   3%

7b  578  305  273  173  186  112  107  114  145  127   79  134  222  130   92
    10%  11%   9%  11%  10%  10%   8%  11%  10%   9%   9%  11%  10%   9%   8%

7c 5152 2408 2744 1304 1654 1020 1174  866 1256 1208  733 1002 1888 1214 1036
    87%  85%  88%  85%  86%  87%  89%  84%  86%  87%  88%  84%  86%  87%  89%

7d   46   19   27   13   11   10   11   10   18    7    2    8   25    7    4
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%    *   1%   1%   1%    *


8a  102   54   48   40   38   15    9   23   30   24   12   16   48   27   11
     2%   2%   2%   3%   2%   1%   1%   2%   2%   2%   1%   1%   2%   2%   1%

8b  374  162  212  128  126   70   50   62   98   95   48   94  128   92   60
     6%   6%   7%   8%   7%   6%   4%   6%   7%   7%   6%   8%   6%   7%   5%

8c 5439 2594 2844 1363 1744 1078 1255  942 1317 1260  774 1072 2001 1265 1089
    91%  92%  91%  89%  91%  92%  95%  91%  90%  91%  93%  90%  91%  91%  94%

8d   32   14   18    9    8    9    7    8   10    9    1    4   18    5    4
     1%   1%   1%   1%    *   1%    *   1%   1%   1%    *    *   1%    *    *


9a  146   70   75   62   43   21   20   32   35   37   17   32   51   42   20
     2%   2%   2%   4%   2%   2%   1%   3%   2%   3%   2%   3%   2%   3%   2%

9b  327  165  162  147  103   46   32   67   85   86   40   74  125   80   49
     6%   6%   5%  10%   5%   4%   2%   6%   6%   6%   5%   6%   6%   6%   4%

9c 5430 2573 2858 1318 1760 1092 1260  927 1319 1257  776 1070 1997 1261 1092
    91%  91%  92%  86%  92%  93%  95%  90%  91%  91%  93%  90%  91%  91%  94%

9d   44   16   27   13    9   12    9    8   16    8    3   10   22    7    4
     1%   1%   1%   1%    *   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   *    1%   1%   *    *


10a 220   92  127   83   78   35   23   47   54   56   27   42   79   52   44
     4%   3%   4%   5%   4%   3%   2%   5%   4%   4%   3%   4%   4%   4%   4%

10b 650  313  337  218  257  111   64  123  149  176   93  123  226  168  131
    11%  11%  11%  14%  13%   9%   5%  12%  10%  13%  11%  10%  10%  12%  11%

10c5015 2386 2629 1221 1560 1012 1221  857 1235 1140  711 1015 1858 1158  977
    84%  84%  84%  79%  81%  86%  92%  83%  85%  82%  85%  86%  85%  83%  84%

10d  62   33   29   16   20   13   13    6   17   16    5    6   31   11   12
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%    *   1%   1%   1%


11a  71   36   36   26   28    8   10    4   20   24   12    7   26   20   17
     1%   1%   1%   2%   1%   1%   1%    *   1%   2%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%

11b 220  140   80   78   88   36   17   33   48   68   28   30   80   70   40
     4%   5%   3%   5%   5%   3%   1%   3%   3%   5%   3%   2%   4%   5%   3%

11c5604 2626 2978 1424 1784 1118 1278  981 1378 1284  791 1136 2068 1290 1099
    94%  93%  95%  93%  93%  95%  97%  95%  95%  93%  95%  96%  94%  93%  94%

11d  52   23   29   12   16   10   14   16   10   12    6   12   21   10    8
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   2%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%

                                            * - indicates less than 0.5%


                        --------------------------


___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--
John Powell - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Survey, 4/7
Date: 11 Oct 92 18:51:16 GMT


                    Demographic Data - Card 1, Part 2
                    ---------------------------------

     Marital Status     Parents
   -------------------  of kids
    Married  Unmarried Aged 0-17
   --------- --------- ---------
   Both 0,1   Age  Age Both 0,1
   Work Work  44-  45+ Work Work
   ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ====
T# 1708 1803 1528  900 1014 1247
%# 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100%

Q#
___
1a   54   52   54   28   35   47
     3%   3%   4%   3%   3%   4%

1b  136  133  155   65   84  119
     8%   7%  10%   7%   8%  10%

1c 1507 1605 1306  799  887 1072
    88%  89%  85%  89%  88%  86%

1d   11   13   13    8    8    9
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%


2a   66   37   74   33   40   39
     4%   2%   5%   4%   4%   3%

2b  172  157  198   82  106  152
    10%   9%  13%   9%  10%  12%

2c 1455 1594 1239  773  860 1045
    85%  88%  81%  86%  85%  84%

2d   15   16   17   12    8   12
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%


3a   19   15   24    7   12   15
     1%   1%   2%   1%   1%   1%

3b  126   90  110   40   83   85
     7%   5%   7%   4%   8%   7%

3c 1539 1679 1377  843  908 1132
    90%  93%  90%  94%  90%  91%

3d   24   19   16   10   11   16
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%


4a   95   61  112   35   63   84
     6%   3%   7%   4%   6%   7%

4b  224  217  230  102  139  192
    13%  12%  15%  11%  14%  15%

4c 1381 1512 1177  754  807  959
    81%  84%  77%  84%  80%  77%

4d    8   13    9    9    5   12
      *   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%


5a   72   54   48   27   45   44
     4%   3%   3%   3%   4%   3%

5b  130  110  150   51   64  106
     8%   6%  10%   6%   6%   9%

5c 1493 1624 1318  813  897 1084
    87%  90%  86%  90%  89%  87%

5d   12   16   12    9    7   13
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%


6a    4    7    5    2    4    2
      *    *    *    *    *    *

6b   18   10   20    6   10   12
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%

6c 1652 1752 1468  874  984 1214
    97%  97%  96%  97%  97%  97%

6d   34   35   35   18   16   19
     2%   2%   2%   2%   2%   2%


7a   36   42   64   30   29   42
     2%   2%   4%   3%   3%   3%

7b  173  141  181   83  106  114
    10%   8%  12%   9%  10%   9%

7c 1491 1602 1273  778  875 1078
    87%  89%  83%  86%  86%  86%

7d    8   18   10    9    4   13
      *   1%   1%   1%    *   1%


8a   24   24   43   10   19   23
     1%   1%   3%   1%   2%   2%

8b   95   90  140   49   61   91
     6%   5%   9%   5%   6%   7%

8c 1581 1677 1337  836  930 1124
    93%  93%  87%  93%  92%  90%

8d    7   12    8    5    4    9
      *   1%   1%   1%    *   1%


9a   36   37   58   15   25   37
     2%   2%   4%   2%   2%   3%

9b   86   73  145   23   50   84
     5%   4%   9%   3%   5%   7%

9c 1573 1681 1315  853  932 1118
    92%  93%  86%  95%  92%  90%

9d   12   12   10   10    7    8
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%


10a  56   50   90   23   33   59
     3%   3%   6%   3%   3%   5%

10b 202  153  216   79  138  154
    12%   8%  14%   9%  14%  12%

10c1432 1585 1206  784  831 1021
    84%  88%  79%  87%  82%  82%

10d  18   15   16   13   12   14
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%


11a  28   12   26   5   16     4
     2%   1%   2%   1%  2%     *

11b  78   49   77   16   52   39
     5%   3%   5%   2%   5%   3%

11c1592 1727 1407  870  940 1193
    93%  96%  92%  97%  93%  96%

11d  10   15   17    9    6   11
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%

                                            * - indicates less than 0.5%


                        --------------------------



___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--
John Powell - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Survey, 5/7
Date: 11 Oct 92 18:51:18 GMT


                    Demographic Data - Card 2, Part 1
                    ---------------------------------

                                                     Political Political
        Race   Geographic Area      Market Size        Affil   Ideology
        ----  ------------------ ------------------  --------- ---------
   Totl Blck  NE   MW   SO   WST   A    B    C    D   DEM  REP CONS LIBL
   ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ====
T# 5947  675 1273 1498 1987 1189 2477 1827  888  756 2207 1696 2561 1101
%# 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100%

Q#
___
1a  188   29   19   40   73   56   83   61   32   12   77   43   67   45
     3%   4%   1%   3%   4%   5%   3%   3%   4%   2%   3%   3%   3%   4%

1b  488   61   75  110  205   99  170  171   74   72  170  132  211  107
     8%   9%   6%   7%  10%   8%   7%   9%   8%  10%   8%   8%   8%  10%

1c 5225  580 1169 1341 1693 1022 2206 1580  770  669 1947 1513 2267  939
    88%  86%  92%  90%  85%  86%  89%  86%  87%  89%  88%  89%  88%  85%

1d   45    6   10    7   17   12   18   15   11    2   12    8   17   11
     1%   1%   1%    *   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%    *   1%    *   1%   1%


2a  210   30   32   35   74   69   88   64   36   22   81   45   81   62
     4%   4%   3%   2%   4%   6%   4%   4%   4%   3%   4%   3%   3%   6%

2b  610   60  113  167  179  151  263  173   96   78  235  168  252  146
    10%   9%   9%  11%   9%  13%  11%   9%  11%  10%  11%  10%  10%  13%

2c 5066  573 1124 1278 1714  950 2106 1564  745  651 1871 1472 2203  886
    85%  85%  88%  85%  86%  80%  85%  86%  84%  86%  85%  87%  86%  81%

2d   60   11    4   18   19   19   20   26   10    5   20   10   25    7
     1%   2%    *   1%   1%   2%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%


3a   65    4   14   18   21   12   24   21    8   13   25   13   27   17
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   2%   1%   1%   1%   2%

3b  366   20   69  105  117   76  128   95   83   60  129  119  160   73
     6%   3%   5%   7%   6%   6%   5%   5%   9%   8%   6%   7%   6%   7%

3c 5447  642 1182 1356 1821 1087 2294 1691  787  674 2025 1552 2352 1002
    92%  95%  93%  91%  92%  91%  93%  93%  89%  89%  92%  91%  92%  91%

3d   69    9    8   20   27   14   31   19   10    9   27   12   23   10
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%


4a  302   37   33   62  113   94  119  109   40   35  117   80  114   88
     5%   5%   3%   4%   6%   8%   5%   6%   4%   5%   5%   5%   4%   8%

4b  773   72  107  185  299  182  247  231  159  136  281  232  343  161
    13%  11%   8%  12%  15%  15%  10%  13%  18%  18%  13%  14%  13%  15%

4c 4833  560 1126 1239 1566  901 2093 1477  682  581 1801 1378 2090  845
    81%  83%  88%  83%  79%  76%  84%  81%  77%  77%  82%  81%  82%  77%

4d   40    6    7   12    9   11   19    9    7    4    8    7   13    7
     1%   1%   1%   1%    *   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%    *    *   1%   1%


5a  201   12   23   50   59   69   78   63   38   23   76   56   90   44
     3%   2%   2%   3%   3%   6%   3%   3%   4%   3%   3%   3%   4%   4%

5b  442   39   70  135  124  113  191  130   80   40  152  114  176   96
     7%   6%   6%   9%   6%   9%   8%   7%   9%   5%   7%   7%   7%   9%

5c 5256  618 1172 1303 1789  992 2191 1617  760  687 1966 1520 2277  957
    88%  92%  92%  87%  90%  83%  88%  89%  86%  91%  89%  90%  89%  87%

5d   49    6    8   11   15   15   17   17   10    5   12    6   17    5
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%    *   1%    *


6a   18    1    1    2    9    6   12    3    2    1    6    7    6    5
      *    *    *    *    *   1%    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

6b   53   10    5   14   28    6   34    5    9    5   16   20   25   11
     1%   1%    *   1%   1%   1%   1%    *   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%

6c 5754  657 1258 1433 1912 1151 2396 1779  842  738 2149 1634 2483 1059
    97%  97%  99%  96%  96%  97%  97%  97%  95%  98%  97%  96%  97%  96%

6d  122    8    9   49   38   26   35   40   34   12   36   34   48   26
     2%   1%   1%   3%   2%   2%   1%   2%   4%   2%   2%   2%   2%   2%


7a  171   27   27   46   59   39   67   55   31   19   57   37   63   49
     3%   4%   2%   3%   3%   3%   3%   3%   3%   2%   3%   2%   2%   4%

7b  578   56   94  154  191  139  208  178  120   73  217  171  248  141
    10%   8%   7%  10%  10%  12%   8%  10%  13%  10%  10%  10%  10%  13%

7c 5152  589 1144 1289 1718 1002 2187 1585  723  658 1923 1475 2226  906
    87%  87%  90%  86%  86%  84%  88%  87%  81%  87%  87%  87%  87%  82%

7d   46    3    8    8   20    9   15    9   14    7    9   14   24    5
     1%    *   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%    *   2%   1%    *   1%   1%    *


8a  102   23   12   27   39   24   49   21   16   15   36   24   34   33
     2%   3%   1%   2%   2%   2%   2%   1%   2%   2%   2%   1%   1%   3%

8b  374   43   60   97  139   79  141  124   58   52  133  106  156  106
     6%   6%   5%   6%   7%   7%   6%   7%   7%   7%   6%   6%   6%  10%

8c 5439  607 1197 1362 1800 1079 2277 1674  803  684 2034 1557 2355  959
    91%  90%  94%  91%  91%  91%  92%  92%  90%  91%  92%  92%  92%  87%

8d   32    2    4   12    9    7   10    7   11    4    4   10   16    4
     1%    *    *   1%    *   1%    *    *   1%   1%    *   1%   1%    *


9a  146   31   27   24   63   32   52   49   27   18   53   33   58   46
     2%   5%   2%   2%   3%   3%   2%   3%   3%   2%   2%   2%   2%   4%

9b  327   58   42   94  121   71  121  102   67   37  129   86  134   86
     6%   9%   3%   6%   6%   6%   5%   6%   8%   5%   6%   5%   5%   8%

9c 5430  581 1196 1369 1792 1074 2289 1664  781  695 2016 1569 2356  963
    91%  86%  94%  91%  90%  90%  92%  91%  88%  92%  91%  93%  92%  87%

9d   44    5    8   11   12   13   14   11   12    6    9    7   13    7
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%    *    *   1%   1%


10a 220   24   24   51   75   70  101   73   24   22   73   64   73   60
     4%   4%   2%   3%   4%   6%   4%   4%   3%   3%   3%   4%   3%   5%

10b 650   77  102  155  224  169  278  196  119   57  236  184  260  149
    11%  11%   8%  10%  11%  14%  11%  11%  13%   8%  11%  11%  10%  14%

10c5015  566 1134 1276 1668  937 2066 1544  734  671 1880 1432 2202  881
    84%  84%  89%  85%  84%  79%  83%  85%  83%  89%  85%  84%  86%  80%

10d  62    8   12   16   21   13   32   13   11    6   18   16   25   11
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%

11a  71    8   14   16   29   12   38   19   10    4   28   23   23   23
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   2%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   2%

11b 220   18   35   67   73   45  103   46   45   26   78   66   95   53
     4%   3%   3%   4%   4%   4%   4%   3%   5%   3%   4%   4%   4%   5%

11c5604  645 1218 1397 1867 1122 2316 1750  818  720 2089 1592 2419 1018
    94%  96%  96%  93%  94%  94%  94%  96%  92%  95%  95%  94%  94%  92%

11d  52    4    6   19   19    9   20   12   16    5   12   14   24    7
     1%   1%    *   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   2%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%

                                            * - indicates less than 0.5%


                        --------------------------



___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--
John Powell - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Survey, 6/7
Date: 11 Oct 92 18:51:20 GMT


                    Demographic Data - Card 2, Part 2
                    ---------------------------------

                       Other Personal
                        Demographics
        Occupation     --------------
   -------------------      Un-  Pol/
   Exec Whte Blue Home Empl ion  Soc
   Prof Coll Coll Makr Fems Mbrs Actv
   ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ====
T# 1012 1029 1635  746 1641  566  565
%# 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100%

Q#
___
1a   24   35   50   29   66   26   27
     2%   3%   3%   4%   4%   5%   5%

1b   75   87  154   61  151   44   61
     7%   8%   9%   8%   9%   8%  11%

1c  911  897 1415  648 1412  493  474
    90%  87%  87%  87%  86%  87%  84%

1d    2    9   16    8   13    4    3
      *   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%


2a   50   45   49   16   77   30   41
     5%   4%   3%   2%   5%   5%   7%

2b  131  110  172   60  187   70   90
    13%  11%  11%   8%  11%  12%  16%

2c  826  864 1397  663 1359  463  432
    82%  84%  85%  89%  83%  82%  76%

2d    6   10   17    6   19    4    2
     1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%    *


3a   10   17   19    5   16    9    6
     1%   2%   1%   1%   1%   2%   1%

3b   70   71  114   38   93   49   50
     7%   7%   7%   5%   6%   9%   9%

3c  926  926 1476  694 1516  499  506
    92%  90%  90%  93%  92%  88%  89%

3d    6   14   27    9   17    9    4
     1%   1%   2%   1%   1%   2%   1%


4a   55   64   78   34  113   40   53
     5%   6%   5%   5%   7%   7%   9%

4b  124  152  218  107  244   69  106
    12%  15%  13%  14%  15%  12%  19%

4c  828  805 1325  599 1273  454  405
    82%  78%  81%  80%  78%  80%  72%

4d    5    8   13    6   10    4    1
      *   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%    *


5a   49   50   42   17   50   23   46
     5%   5%   3%   2%   3%   4%   8%

5b   87   92  122   38  126   51   56
     9%   9%   7%   5%   8%   9%  10%

5c  872  878 1453  686 1447  487  460
    86%  85%  89%  92%  88%  86%  81%

5d    4    9   19    5   17    5    3
      *   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%


6a    4    6    4    1    7    4    3
      *   1%    *    *    *   1%   1%

6b    5   16   17    4   10    7    6
      *   2%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%

6c  992  989 1573  726 1588  541  547
    98%  96%  96%  97%  97%  95%  97%

6d   12   18   42   15   37   14    9
     1%   2%   3%   2%   2%   2%   2%


7a   28   32   45   15   38   17   24
     3%   3%   3%   2%   2%   3%   4%

7b   80  107  174   44  152   65   74
     8%  10%  11%   6%   9%  11%  13%

7c  900  883 1395  679 1437  482  466
    89%  86%  85%  91%  88%  85%  82%

7d    3    7   21    8   15    2    2
      *   1%   1%   1%   1%    *    *


8a   12   20   29    9   23    8   15
     1%   2%   2%   1%   1%   1%   3%

8b   47   70  124   41  122   36   47
     5%   7%   8%   6%   7%   6%   8%

8c  951  932 1471  689 1489  520  502
    94%  91%  90%  92%  91%  92%  89%

8d    2    6   11    7    8    3    2
      *   1%   1%   1%    *    *    *


9a   25   28   45   18   39   13   19
     2%   3%   3%   2%   2%   2%   3%

9b   38   63  116   32   98   38   33
     4%   6%   7%   4%   6%   7%   6%

9c  948  932 1459  691 1490  514  513
    94%  91%  89%  93%  91%  91%  91%

9d    2    6   16    5   14    2    1
      *   1%   1%   1%   1%    *    *


10a  34   48   59   27   79   21   22
     3%   5%   4%   4%   5%   4%   4%

10b 108  133  199   76  198   73   83
    11%  13%  12%  10%  12%  13%  15%

10c 854  839 1355  636 1348  463  456
    84%  82%  83%  85%  82%  82%  81%

10d  16    9   22    8   16    9    4
     2%   1%   1%   1%   1%   2%   1%


11a  10   23   16    4   25    7    8
     1%   2%   1%   1%   2%   1%   1%

11b  34   56   80   13   52   33   28
     3%   5%   5%   2%   3%   6%   5%

11c 963  943 1522  723 1548  519  525
    95%  92%  93%  97%  94%  92%  93%

11d   5    7   18    7   16    7    4
      *   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%   1%

                                            * - indicates less than 0.5%


                        --------------------------


___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--
John Powell - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Survey, 7/7
Date: 11 Oct 92 18:51:22 GMT

[1] - The actual question preface was:  "This card contains a list of
      some things that might have happenned to you at some point in your
      life, either as a child or as an adult, or both.  I'd like you to
      read down the card, and for each item tell me, to the best of your
      knowledge, if that has happenned to you more than once, once or
      twice, or never."  The actual available selections were:  a) More
      than once; b) Once or twice; c) Never; d) Don't know.  These
      selections, (a, b, c, and d), are indicated in the detailed
      Demographic Data section.

      Format notes:  The order of the questions as listed in Summary I &
      II is as presented in the referenced document.  The _numerical
      order_ corresponds to the order of the questions as presented in
      the Demographic Data section and corresponds to the actual order
      of the questions as presented to the original respondents.

      Card 1 and Card 2, in the Demographic Data section, are each
      presented in two parts to conform to an 80-column format.  They
      were originally presented as a one-page landscape (horizontal
      132-column) printout.

      For household income the 'M' indicates married couple income.
      Occupation is for the interviewed respondent and not the head of
      household.  The column titled "Empl Fems" indicates employed
      females.  Geographic designations:  NE = Northeast, New England
      and Mid-Atlantic states; Midwest = East North Central and West
      North Central states; South = South Atlantic, East South Central
      and West South Central states; West = Mountain and Pacific states.
      (These are combined U.S. Census Regions.)  Market size corresponds
      to A.C. Nielsen definitions:  A = the 25 largest metro areas in
      the U.S.; B = individually or aggregately within a metro area have
      a population of 150,000 or more; C = individually or aggregately
      within a metro area have a population of 35,000 or more; D = all
      remaining counties.  Although not specifically mentioned in the
      study commentary or the data analysis, the "Race Blck" column is
      assumed to refer to that portion of respondents who identified
      themselves as Afro-American.

      The referenced document is assumed to be accurate.  THIS DOCUMENT,
      ALTHOUGH PROOFREAD TWICE, MAY CONTAIN TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS WHICH
      ARE SOLELY MINE.

[2] - Surveys were conducted in July, August, and September 1991.  The
      Total and monthly respondent figures are listed.  The individual
      month margin of sampling error is +/- 3%, the total sample margin
      of sampling error is +/- 1.4%    After demographic exclusions,
      185,000,000 people are represented by the total survey.  "Thus,
      when 8% of our respondents reported that they have 'seen unusual
      lights or balls of light in a room without knowing what was
      causing them, or where they came from,' that 8% can be said to
      represent a total of 14,800,000 Americans."

[3] - TRONDANT is a fictional word and the question was included "in an
      attempt to guage the reliability of people's responses.  It is
      interesting to note that only 1% of respondents, the lowest for
      any item, report this as having happenned."

[4] - PSA = Political Social Actives; Roper terms them Influential
      Americans and defines them as: "predominantly in their thirties
      and forties, are married and have children.  They are wealthier
      than most Americans, with a median income of $38,700, compared to
      $28,300 for the total population.  On average, Influentials are
      also better educated - 43% of Influentials are college graduates,
      compared to 30% of the total population."

[5] - Percentages have been rounded off "to the nearest whole percent."
      This means that adding sub-item percentages may yeild values
      greater than 100%.


___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--
John Powell - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Survey, 7/7
Date: 19 Oct 92 07:06:00 GMT

John:
          Nice posting!  I was particularly interested in this passage:

 >
 > [3] - TRONDANT is a fictional word and the question was
 > included "in an
 >       attempt to guage the reliability of people's
 > responses.  It is
 >       interesting to note that only 1% of respondents, the
 > lowest for
 >       any item, report this as having happenned."
 >

 .. which makes me wonder how many people read through that survey like this:

>>  ...  Yeah  ... once or twice.  ...
>>  ... Oh yeah!  More than twice ... about 4 or 5 times! ...
>>  ...  Yep!  At least 3 times. ...
>>  ... Oh yeah! -- TRONDANT!!  Wow!  I haven't heard *that*
>>  word in a LONG time!  F***in' TRONDANT!  Now what was that
>>  supposed to mean, anyway?   ...  Wow!  Just thinking of
>>  that word again is causing me to have FLASHBACKS!!  ...
>>  I can still see THOSE EYES!!  ... And that sulphur smell
>>  that Whitley used to describe!  ...  Too much!!  ...

I'd bet that the number of people who fall for TRONDANT is a lot
higher on these paranormal-related bbs-es.  -- probably *much*
higher than 1%!
                            --  John

--
John Burke - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]


*******************************************************************************
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********************End**of**the**Abduction**Newsletter************************


                          Abduction Digest, Number 76

                          Wednesday, October 28th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                      CALIF
                         "Linda" Abduction Case - Part 1
                       "Linda" Abduction Case - Conclusion

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (LONE RANGER)
Subject: CALIF
Date: 21 Oct 92 00:11:00 GMT

Just arrived here from California.  The abduction fever is much
higher
over there.  Was involved in abduction support groups.  Are there any
here?  I have undergone intense regression, and have much documented
supporet from credible Dr.'s.
Any feedbak?
--
LONE RANGER - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: "Linda" Abduction Case - Part 1
Date: 27 Oct 92 01:25:05 GMT


 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally by Michael Corbin
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 26 Oct 1992, 18:24

Below  are the original posting that Don Allen  provided  ParaNet
regarding George Hansen's position on the "Linda" abduction case,
and a rebuttal from Jerome Clark.

We  have provided this material in this fashion for  clarity  and
continuity.

** HOT ITEM **

This was forwarded to me by a friend who is pretty tight in some
UFO circles. According to my friend, this was what was part of
the discussion at the recent get together at the UN. I will
leave it with you. I have no further information available, but
hopefully this posting will serve to stimulate discussion.

Judging from it's contents, I don't think that will be a problem :-)

=========================================================================

Attempted Murder vs. The Politics of Ufology: A Question of

Priorities in the Linda Napolitano Case


by George P. Hansen


-----------------------------------------------------------------
ABSTRACT:  UFO abductee Linda Napolitano claims that she was kidnapped,
assaulted, battered, harassed, and nearly drowned by two agents of the U.S.
government.  Prominent ufologists Budd Hopkins, John E. Mack, David M. Jacobs,
Jerome Clark and Walter H. Andrus, Jr. accept these claims. Hopkins has
collected extensive materials that could be used to help apprehend and convict
the agents.  Yet Hopkins, Clark and Andrus have vigorously argued that these
crimes should not be reported to law enforcement authorities; they indicate
that such could be "politically damaging" to UFO research.  These ufologists
are asked to defend their decision and priorities.
-----------------------------------------------------------------


   Budd Hopkins' case involving the abduction of Linda Napolitano by a UFO has
been discussed in the Wall Street Journal (May 14, 1992, pp. A1, A10), Omni
(April 1992, p. 75), Paris Match (17 Sept. 92, pp. 13-14, 18, 96, 98), and the
New York Times (October 5, 1992, pp. B1, B2).  The Mufon UFO Journal labeled it
"The Abduction Case of the Century" (August 1992, p. 9).  By virtue of this
intense interest, it will become an exemplar for the study of UFO abductions.

   Briefly, it is asserted that at about 3:15 a.m. on November 30, 1989, Linda
Napolitano floated out of her 12th floor apartment in lower Manhattan.
Allegedly three witnesses in a car about two blocks away observed Linda and
three humanoid figures emerge from a window and ascend into a craft hovering
over her building.  Two of the witnesses, Richard and Dan, were government
security officers who were guarding the third witness, a dignitary.  More than
a year after the case, Richard and Dan wrote to Hopkins describing what they
saw, and a few weeks later they visited Linda in her apartment.  Hopkins has
never met these two but has over 80 pages of letters from them, and he has
accumulated much other material pertinent to the case.

   The affair is quite complex, and the story is now only beginning to be told.
Hopkins presented a few details at the 1992 MUFON convention in Albuquerque and
then in the September 1992 issue of the Mufon UFO Journal. One of the most
disturbing elements of the case is that felonies were allegedly committed by
the government agents; these include assault, battery, kidnapping and attempted
murder.

   Hopkins' published account of this aspect is so sketchy that some might
consider it deliberately misleading.  His entire written summary is only one
sentence long: "In April and again in October 1991, Linda would suffer hours-
long forced confinements and interrogations at the hands of these confused
frightened `law-enforcement' officers; she would be struck by a car during a
chase through the streets of lower Manhattan" (Mufon UFO Journal, September
1992, pp. 13, 14).  Hopkins' brief statement hardly conveys the gravity of the
situation.  It suggests that he may have taken these matters much too lightly.


The kidnappings and attempted murder

   On January 28, 1992, Linda Napolitano contacted Richard Butler and requested
a meeting because she was concerned about her personal safety, and she was
worried that Hopkins might not be able to adequately protect her.  Linda had
earlier become friends with Butler at meetings in the home of Budd Hopkins.  On
February 1, 1992, Linda met with Butler along with Joseph Stefula, a former
Special Agent with the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command who has
extensive contacts in law enforcement.

   During the meeting, Linda stated that in April 1991 she encountered security
agent Richard on the street near her apartment.  She was asked to get into a
car that Dan was driving, but she refused.  Richard then picked her up and,
with some struggle, forced her into the automobile.  Linda reported that she
was driven around for 3 1/2 hours and interrogated about the aliens.

   At the MUFON symposium in July 1992, Linda was asked if she had reported the
kidnapping to the police.  She said that she had not and went on to say that
the kidnapping was legal because it had to do with national security; she later
commented that she did not want to go head to head with a government agency
because she might be killed and pieces of her might be found in the East River
(Hopkins did not dispute these statements).  Linda did remember another car
being involved with the kidnapping, and under hypnotic regression she recalled
the license plate number of that automobile, as well as part of the number of
the car she was in.  Hopkins reports that the numbers have been traced to
particular agencies.

   During the February 1 meeting with Stefula and Butler, Linda reported that
on the morning of October 15, 1991, Dan pulled her into a red Jaguar sports
car.  Linda happened to be carrying a tape recorder and was able to
surreptitiously record a small part of Dan's questioning, but within a few
minutes he discovered and confiscated it.  Dan drove to a beach house on the
shore of Long Island.  There he demanded that Linda remove her clothes and put
on a white nightgown, similar to the one she wore the night of the UFO
abduction.  He said he wanted to have sex with her.  She refused but then
agreed to put on the nightgown over her clothes.  Once she did, Dan droppped to
his knees and started to talk incoherently about her being the "Lady of the
Sands."  She fled the beach house, but Dan caught her on the beach and bent her
arm behind her.  He placed two fingers on the back of her neck, leading Linda
to believe that it was a gun.  He then forced her into the water and pushed her
head under twice.  He continued to rave incoherently, and as her head was being
pushed under for the third time, she believed that she would not come up again.
Then, a "force" hit Dan and knocked him back onto the beach.  Linda started to
run but heard a sound like a gun being cocked.  She looked back and saw Dan
taking a picture of her (the pictures were eventually sent to Hopkins).  She
continued to move, but Richard came running, seemingly out of nowhere.  He
stopped her and convinced her to return to the beach house, and he told her
that he would control Dan by giving him a Mickey Finn.  She agreed to the plan.
Once inside, Richard put Dan in the shower to wash off the mud from the beach.
This gave Linda a chance to search the premises; she recovered her cassette
tape and discovered stationery bearing a Central Intelligence Agency
letterhead.

   In a brief conversation on October 3, 1992, Hopkins told me that Linda came
to him shortly after she arrived back in Manhattan after the kidnapping.  She
was disheveled, had sand in her hair, and was traumatized by the experience.

   Linda also reported to Stefula and Butler that on December 15 and December
16, 1991, one of the men had tried to make contact with her near the shopping
area of the South Street Seaport.  He was driving a large black Fleetwood sedan
with Saudi Arabian United Nations license plates. To avoid him, Linda said that
she went into a shop during the first incident. The second day a similar thing
happened, and she stood next to some businessmen until he left the area.

<<Concluded in next message..>>

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: "Linda" Abduction Case - Conclusion
Date: 27 Oct 92 01:25:07 GMT


 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally by Michael Corbin
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 26 Oct 1992, 18:24

<<..Continued from previous message>>


Evidence accumulated by Hopkins

   Hopkins reports accumulating much information about the identities of
Richard and Dan, and this could be extremely helpful in a criminal
investigation.  He has approximately 80 pages of letters from the two men.
These might potentially be used to identify typewriters on which they were
produced.  They may also contain fingerprints.  Hopkins has tape recordings of
Richard and Dan; perhaps these could be used to help identify them by
voiceprints.  Hopkins claims to know which government agency employs the two.
He says that he knows the identity of the dignitary they were guarding, and
this person should be in a position to help locate and identify Richard and
Dan.  (Linda told Stefula and Butler that the dignitary was Javier Perez de
Cuellar, then Secretary General of the United Nations.)


The counsel of ufology's leaders

   The reader may be tempted to dismiss Linda's account as a preposterous
script for a grade B movie, and I personally do not believe her claims.
However, several notable figures in ufology have expressed the conviction that
Linda is telling the truth.  On October 6, 1992, I spoke with Dr. John Mack,
former head of the psychiatry department at Harvard Medical School, and he
confirmed that he had met Linda and concluded that she was not the type of
person to make up this kind of story.  That same day I also spoke with David
Jacobs, a professor of history at Temple University, an abduction research
colleague of Budd Hopkins, and author of the book Secret Life.  He too believed
that Linda was telling the truth.

   Hopkins presented additional secret evidence to Walter Andrus and Jerome
Clark who are now both persuaded of Linda's honesty.  Andrus and Clark are
arguably the two most influential figures in U.S. ufology. Andrus is
International Director of the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), and he organizes the
largest annual conference on UFOs in the country and regularly writes for
MUFON's monthly magazine.  Clark is a columnist for Fate magazine, editor of
International UFO Reporter, and a vice-president of the Center for UFO Studies.

   At a meeting in New York City on October 3, 1992, Linda said that she is
willing to testify against Richard and Dan (though she had previously indicated
that she was afraid of filing charges herself).  I informed those at the
meeting that I was prepared to make a formal request for a federal
investigation of the attempted murder of Linda.  Hopkins, Andrus, and Clark all
vigorously objected to this, and they strongly urged me not to do so.  They
said that such action would be "politically damaging" to ufology.  I was
extremely puzzled by their reasoning and their apparent priorities.  On October
5, 1992, two days later, I called Andrus to make certain that I understood his
position.  I asked him to join with me and request a formal investigation of
these allegations by the proper law enforcement agencies.  I explained to him
that UFO researchers were generally not qualified to investigate attempted
murder.  I was taken aback when Andrus asked me what right I had to raise these
issues.  He again urged that the crimes not be reported.  The following day I
spoke with Clark.  He told me that he accepted Linda's statements, and he
reaffirmed his opposition to reporting the crimes.

   I have not been given a satisfactory explanation for their views.  At risk
is not only the safety of Linda but also that of the general public. If federal
agents have engaged in kidnapping and attempted murder, they should be brought
to justice.  The matter is of great concern for the general citizenry and for
the conduct of UFO abduction research.  I call upon Clark, Andrus, and Hopkins
to publicly explain their rationale and priorities.


20 October 1992

-------End of forwarded post----------------------------------------------


  The Politics of Torquemada; or, Earth Calling Hansen's Planet


     George  Hansen,  who is short on ufological  experience  but
long  on  self-righteous  blather,  is  distributing  a  document
entitled  "Attempted  Murder  vs.  the  Politics  of  Ufology:  A
question  of  Priorities in the Linda Napolitano  Case."   In  an
October  13  memo addressed to Budd Hopkins,  Walt  Andrus,  John
Mack, David Jacobs, and me, Hansen grandiosely announces, "I plan
to publish this in periodicals devoted to UFOs and mail copies to
leading ufologists, boards of directors of MUFON, CUFOS, and  the
Intruders Foundation, and funders of UFO research.  I also expect
to  post  this on electronic bulletin boards and send  copies  to
reporter for Omni, the New York Times, Paris Match, and the  Wall
Street Journal."

     In the extremely unlikely event that Hansen's  communication
does not end up in the CP file of these latter publications and I
receive  a  call or visit from a reporter from the same,  I  will
inform him or her of the following:

     Hansen  claims  that when he expressed a desire to  "make  a
formal  request for a federal investigation of  Linda,  "Hopkins,
Andrus,  and I "strongly urged me not to do so.  They  said  that
such action would be politically damaging to ufology."  I  cannot
speak  for  budd  and  Walt, though I know  them  to  be  men  of
integrity.    I   can,  however,  state  flatly   that   Hansen's
characterization of my remarks is, in its first half,  misleading
and, in its second, blatantly false.

     Hansen called me late on the evening of October 6, two  days
after  my  return  from  New  York  City  and  the  meeting  with
proponents  and critics of the Linda case.  As i have told  Buldd
and others, I have serious problems with the story.  I told  Budd
that  at this stage too many links in the chain of  evidence  are
missing  to  sustain a suspension of  unbelief.   Moreover,  some
aspects  of it seem to me to be impossible.  At the same  time  I
have problems with the charge that Linda hoaxed the entire  even,
an allegation that -- in view of the extraordinary complexity  of
this episode, not to mention what I observed of and learned about
Linda's personality -- strikes me as simplistic and unconvincing.
Tow metal-health professionals (not counting John Mack here)  who
know Linda far better that Hansen does concur, emphatically.

     My  thoughts  about all this are complicated,  and  I  could
devote many pages to them.  I shall not do so here, however.   At
the meeting in which the case was discussed, I kept an open mind;
in  fact, I may have been the only individual there who  had  not
come  to a firm and unshakable conclusion.  Finally  I  suggested
what  I  thought would be a compromise acceptable  to  all  whose
motive was to find the truth.

     I  urged the critics to refrain, over the next  six  months,
form  pursuing  the investigation, which they had  indicated  now
consisted,  or  would soon consist, of knocking on the  doors  of
government  agencies looking for evidence of the elusive  Richard
and  Dan.  I stated that, if this story is true, it is no just  a
UFO   case  but  a  "politically  sensitive"  event  because   it
supposedly  involves a political figure of international  stature
and  therefore  has consequences far outside the  tiny  world  of
ufology.  If that is indeed the case, we would never find Richard
and Dan (if they exist as who they say they are) because  banging
on  the wrong doors could alert the relevant agency that  two  of
its  agents  were  leaking a huge secret.   They  would  then  be
effectively silenced, and we would never learn the truth.

     If,  on  the other hand, the story is a hoax, I went  on,  a
six-month  delay  will  have  no effect on  that  fact,  and  the
evidence  will be just as retrievable then as now.  I assumed  we
were all in this a truth-seeker, I said, and I thought my idea of
a compromise best served that end.

     Rich  Butler  and Joe Stefula, critics  and  honorable  men,
immediately saw my point and agreed.  George "Torquemada" Hansen,
however, proceeded to shout that "science doesn't work that way,"
to  which  I rejoined that , if the story was true, this  is  not
just a scientific matter but a political one as well.  Nothing  I
said  could  have led anyone to think I meant  the  "politics  of
ufology."   The  context  made  it clear  to  everyone  that  the
"politics" to which I referred was the national and international
political  realm of which the Third Man is allegedly  a  resident
and in which (again if they are who they claim to be) Richard and
Dan operate.

     To  anyone who has read my voluminous writings on  ufology's
problems  and  concerns,  the  notion  that  I  would  urge   the
concealment  of truth for any reason -- least of  all  "political
damage" to ufology -- is laughable.
     My  printed  record  shows  just  the  opposite:   a  fierce
commitment  to the truth above and beyond anything else.  No  one
has  been  so consistently, even obsessively,  outspoken  on  the
subject  of  ufologists' need for radical  objectivity,  vigorous
debate, and fearless scrutiny of all issues, regardless of  their
potential  effect  on  someone's misguided  vision  of  ufology's
institutional  interests.   Anyone  who doubts  any  of  this  is
invited to read a few IUR editorials.

     Therefore  I am forced to conclude that Hansen  deliberately
misrepresented  my remarks.  In all the conversations I had  with
the  principals  of  this case, I recall  no  one's  saying  that
Hansen's  proposed  "action  would  be  politically  damaging  to
ufology."   If anyone had used that as an excuse for inaction,  I
would have spoken up, bluntly, to state precisely what I  thought
of that.

     At  any  rate,  what the proponents did talk  about,  in  my
hearing,  was their concern about Linda's well being.  Budd,  who
is  a profoundly decent man, feels strongly that the  attacks  on
Linda are unfair, unfounded and injurious to a woman who  already
has  suffered  enough.   Valid or invalid, this  concern  --  not
damage to the "politics of ufology" (whatever that's supposed  to
mean) -- dominated Budd's conversations with me.

     Still,  since  our exchanges in New York had  been  entirely
cordial, I was unprepared for Hansen's behavior when he called me
on October 6.  I thought he wanted to continue our discussion  of
the  case, but as I started to explain my  thoroughly  ambivalent
feelings, he cut me off, said curtly that he would be brief,  and
asked  if  I thought Linda was lying.  I said I doubted  it,  for
many  reasons, which Hansen, who by now had thoroughly  demonized
the poor woman, did not want to hear.  He informed me that by not
sanctioning  his plan to go to federal authorities, I  was  doing
effectively aiding and abetting gross misuse of police power.   I
said  that  if  such  action were to  be  taken,  it  is  Linda's
decision,  not  mine  or his, to make, and I could  not  see  how
anyone  could  think  otherwise.  Knowing more  about  this  than
Hansen  does, I added that the story contains elements which,  if
Linda  is telling the truth, seem to explain her  what  otherwise
looks  like a puzzling reluctance to act.  In any case, I  added,
it  was  clear  enough that Hansen, his pious  assertion  to  the
contrary  (see the hilariously hypocritical concluding  paragraph
of his article), sought not to help Linda but to destroy her.

     Hansen was at least honest enough not to deny that.  Instead
he chose to try to intimidate me.  He warned that he intended  to
turn my name, address, and phone number, along with Hopkins',  et
al,  into the FBI.  He then launched into a diatribe in which  he
accused  my colleagues and me of "living in a delusional  world."
On  Hansen's planet, apparently, those who disagree with him  are
not  just wrong but deluded and, perhaps, as his  paper  implies,
intellectually corrupt and, moreover, deserving of the  attention
of  police agencies.  I said, "George, you're full of shit,"  and
hung  up on him.  His subsequent pronouncements have only  served
to confirm the cogency of that analysis.

     So  what  is the significance of the Linda  case?   I  don't
know.   Let  me  repeat:  I don't know.   Does  anybody?   It  is
staggeringly  complex, and the available evidence can be read  in
several  ways, though certainly in none.  I admire  Budd  Hopkins
for his dogged, courageous pursuit of the evidence, and I respect
those  who,  like  Butler, Stefula,  and  Don  Johnson,  honestly
dissent  from Budd's interpretation.  As an unbeliever (in  other
words, neither believer nor disbeliever), I support all  rational
debate on the issue.

     In  my opinion, at this stage of an incomplete  and  ongoing
investigation, the only conclusion with which I feel  comfortable
is this one:  Time will tell.  Then again, maybe it won't.  Am am
I the only one out there with a tolerance for ambiguity?

Jerome Clark

October 24, 1992

PARANET FILENAME:  NAPOL.TXT

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]


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********************End**of**the**Abduction**Newsletter************************


                          Abduction Digest, Number 77

                          Saturday, October 31st 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                             possible abduction case
                                      CALIF

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: possible abduction case
Date: 28 Oct 92 13:45:00 GMT

This message was from NICK BOUTROS to ALL,
originally in conference UFO Echo
and was forwarded to you by JIM SPEISER.
                    -------------------------
     As probibly some of you have read, about 3 weeks ago I realized that
there was a prossible abduction case in my neighborhood. A close
friend of mine, about 5 months ago, described a very odd dream he had had
to me.. the dream consisted of him jumping through a set of four
groups of squares connected by four lines... he drew me a picture too.
I wish I had a scanner so I could have my sysop put it up for freq... but
it looked like 4 squares connected by four lines forming a larger square,
each one with a smaller square inside of it and another smaller square
inside of it then another smaller square inside of that then a dot inside
of the smallest square... he also said that he thought thaat the picture
was missing something but he couldn't remember what.. Now what jared my
memory of this was looking at a picture of the Pleiedies trying to follow
up a conversation with Tessa Hebert (thanks Tessa)... anyways, after
going back and asking him about his dream, I discovered that this wasn't
the only odd dream he had had but was one of a series of strange events.

     It seems to have all started about 10 months ago...
in the first dream, he was out on his wooden back deck in the middle of
the night. he said that he felt like he was being watched and after getting
out to the edge of the deck was pulled into the sky by what he thought of as
a 'tractor beam' (THIS IS IN THE DREAM)... We've explored the possibility
of this having some symbolic meaing but found no reason he'd have a dream
like that...

     Next, about 2 months later, a strange cut appeared on his finger
inbetween his middle finger and and pinky finger. he drew me a pic of the
cut too. it was like an up-side-down "U" with right angels instead of
curves.. the cut barely went though his second layer of skin and didn't bleed
at all and was gone within a week. From what I understand, all the lines in
it were exactly the same lenth... I asked if he knew of anything that would do
that, say if he rolled over in his bed onto it... and he said no.

     later about at the beginning of the summer he had another stange dream
that was actually about aliens.. but they didn't look anything like the
'greys' or 'nortics'.. infact they looked alot like humans with ugly black
make-up on if hee remembers correctly. anyways, in the dream, he was climbing
a tree about a block from his house and was picked up by aliens (he doesn't
remember the details though).. after being on the ship for what seemed like a
long time,  the 'captain' of the ship wouldn't let him off. he described the
ship as a cone shape but really isn't sure.  I thought this was rather
strange when I heard about it... but he claims the dream really accured.

     Then, about a month later, (he doesn't remember just when but it was
around 3 months ago), he had the dream about the squares.. I showed him
the picture I found in the book of the Pleiadies... he thought it looked like
the the squares in his dream too...  We hypothezed that the aliens were
leaving information in him to either be used for when he gets older and the
aliens are our allies or for navigational information for other aliens and
that this was actually one of their routes, the sets of squares representing
solar systems and the squares inside were planet's orbits.

     The next thing to happen is the second piece of physical evidence...
sometime about 5 weeks after the 'squares' dream, according to my friend,
his feet started to hurt alot when he didn't do anything stressful to them
the day before.  Apparently this happened twice and both times no one else
living in the house heard anything unusual making it appear unlikely that
he's sleepwalking.

     Now this next thing happened somewhere close to the end of summer..
Anyways, in this dream, he was actually in bed in a very restless sleep..
anyway, for some reason he rolled over and fell onto the floor. after what
seemed like some time, he had a very strange sensation... he couldn't really
explain it with anymore detail than that it felt like something was reading
his mind... we started to thinking about why/how this would happen and that's
how we came up with the theory that someone was using him for navigational
purposes.. in other words, they were storing information in his brain to be
taken out later.  of course we have absolutely no way of knowing this... We
also think that the aliens aren't letting him remember these dreams on
purpose. That would mean that the aliens form of memory 'washing' isn't
totally perfected yet leaving patches of what really happened in his
subconsience as parts of dreams.

     now, finally after writing this whole thing up, my friend called me
around 2 days ago before I had a chance to post this.. seems SOMETHING is
making real strange sounds outside of his window... like a really light
pattering of a helicopter but because the sounds is very 'solid' (it didn't
go away or fade), we doubt that's what it is.. I asked him to record the
sound but weather has been real unstable lately so he won't have it for
about a week.. according to him, the sound can usually be heard around 12:
30am and he's sure that it isn't anything inside his room making the sound..
if he does record it, I'm going to convert it over to a "VOC" file and upload
it to a BBS so anyone that wants to hear it can do so with a Sound Blaster
card or compatible... I know this stuff sounds real strange but I totally
trust this person and am ABSOLUTELY sure he's not lying about any of this so
if it sounds like another abduction case please tell me.

 Thanks,
     Nick

--
Jim Speiser - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: CALIF
Date: 28 Oct 92 13:45:00 GMT

LR>Just arrived here from California.  The abduction fever is much higher
LR>over there.  Was involved in abduction support groups.  Are there any
LR>here?  I have undergone intense regression, and have much documented
LR>supporet from credible Dr.'s.
LR>Any feedbak?

Welcome! --
Would you mind sharing your experiences in a little more detail?

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]


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********************End**of**the**Abduction**Newsletter************************


                          Abduction Digest, Number 78

                          Tuesday, November 10th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                   Linda Case
                                     Survey
                                   Linda Case
                               Interesting Account
                            It's All In Your Head 1/
                            It's All In Your Head 2/
                            Interesting Account Con't
                               Artesia, New Mexico
                                   Linda case
                                Spheres and OOBE

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Linda Case
Date: 2 Nov 92 07:53:16 GMT


    Hold on. Steady. The attacks are beginning to be mounted in the Linda case.
Hansen's is probably not the last of them. Please reserve judgement until Budd
publishes all of his data. Budd Hopkins is one of the most respected research-
ers in the history of UFO investigations. He deserves to have the benefit of
the doubt in all attacks until he publishes the complete history of the Linda
case. I will have more to say about this case in the future.

--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Survey
Date: 2 Nov 92 06:14:02 GMT


 -=> Quoting John Burke to John Powell <=-

 JB> Nice posting!  I was particularly interested in this
 JB> passage:
 > [3] - TRONDANT is a fictional word... [...]
 JB> ... which makes me wonder how many people read through that survey
 JB> like this:
 >>  ...  Yeah  ... once or twice.  ...
 >>  ... Oh yeah!  More than twice ... about 4 or 5 times! ...
 >>  ...  Yep!  At least 3 times. ...
 >>  ... Oh yeah! -- TRONDANT!!  Wow!  I haven't heard *that*
 >>  word in a LONG time!  F***in' TRONDANT!  Now what was that
 >>  supposed to mean, anyway?   ...  Wow!  Just thinking of
 >>  that word again is causing me to have FLASHBACKS!!  ...
 >>  I can still see THOSE EYES!!  ... And that sulphur smell
 >>  that Whitley used to describe!  ...  Too much!!  ...

I think Whitley's sulphur smell had rather more to do with what he ate
than what was eating him...<GRIN, pffutt, pfffutt!>

 JB> I'd bet that the number of people who fall for TRONDANT is
 JB> a lot higher on these paranormal-related bbs-es.  --
 JB> probably *much* higher than 1%!

I don't honestly know but I honestly wouldn't be surprised.  There is
already an attractant associated with time on paranormal-related BBSs...

Oh darn...  There's that sulphur odor again...  Gotta go! <GRIN>

Thanks, take care.
John.
-
<Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence>

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--
John Powell - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Linda Case
Date: 4 Nov 92 15:18:00 GMT


 > AREA:ABDUCT
 >     Hold on.  Steady.  The attacks are beginning to be mounted in the
 >  Linda case.  Hansen's is probably not the last of them.  Please
 > reserve  judgement until Budd publishes all of his data.  Budd
 > Hopkins is one of  the most respected researchers in the history of
 > UFO investigations.  He  deserves to have the benefit of the doubt in
 > all attacks until he  publishes the complete history of the Linda
 > case.  I will have more to  say about this case in the future.


Hi David,

Can you answer 2 questions?

1). How reliable is Linda's story?
2). Who else can verify Hopkin's data?

Thanks!

Don

--
Don Allen - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Gary Long)
Subject: Interesting Account
Date: 6 Nov 92 07:09:46 GMT

(157)   Tue 3 Nov 92 21:14
By: Cliff Treadaway
To: Steve Gresser
Re: Area 51 names
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:3632/24 5095891c
@REPLY: 1:114/37 9616a2f6
@PID: GE 1/b20
I read your message and if you are really serious about your ufo's, here's a
first hand account:

In 1968 I worked with my father on a wireline tug (we cleaned parafin buildup
out of producing oil wells). I believe it was about June of 1968, we had pulled
up to a well about 3 miles west of Point-a-la-Hache, Louisiana. At about 7:00
am, my Dad, as was his practice, began cooking a stew for lunch. At about 8:30
we hooked up to the well and were about to start "going down" with the cleaning
tool.  To the East, on a bright, sunny, blue sky kind of day, we noticed what
appeared to be an airplane.  It was very shiny. One problem...it wasn't moving.
 We watched it in silence for what we thought was about 10 minutes.  At the end
of the 10 minutes,  we shrugged it off, mainly because it disappeared.  I went
to check the stew...it had burned completely to charcoal in the black iron pot.
We checked our watches, It was 4:00 pm.

What happened?  We don't know.  We called Alvin Calendar Naval Air Base and
reported the incident by phone.  They took the information but nothing ever
came of it.  It seemed very strange, but we have not had any ill effects other
than we don't talk about it, because everybody at the time thought we were
nuts!  We lost almost a whole day.  Neither one of us have any memory of the
event except that we agree on what it looked like....kind of cigar shaped with
a tail or antennae on the right, that seemed to rotate to a center position
prior to zooming away almost straight up.

Is this weird or what?

--
Gary Long - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: It's All In Your Head 1/
Date: 7 Nov 92 05:41:02 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Fidonet UFO Conference"
 * Originally by Ralph Toscano
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 30 Oct 1992, 10:53

I thought that the following article would be of interest to my fellow
users...

This article is verbatim from the New Haven Register, (i.e., New Haven
Connecticut for those of you not familiar with New England).

Dr. Ring is a professor of psychology at UConn,(University of
Connecticut) in Storrs Connecticut...and Author of the book...
"The Omega Project"

*********************************************************************
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 29, 1992

NEW HAVEN REGISTER
HEALTH AND SCIENCE

"Unusual Encounters: Imagine opening a window in the brain to another
reality"

By Abram Katz
Register Science Editor
*********************************************************************
STORRS - Some people might give you incredulous arched eyebrows if you
recounted how an alien craft beamed you aboard to undergo a mysterious
physical exam by extraterrestrials creatures.

But Kenneth Ring wouldn't.

Ring, professor of psychology at the University of Connecticut, has
probably listened to mores tales of flying saucer abduction than anyone
from this world. He takes them seriously, but not literally.

Ring, the first researcher to systematically study the vivid visions and
feelings of near-death experiences, became interested in descriptions of
encounters with Unidentifed Flying Objects after reading a book about
them in 1987.

Ring's latest studies are contained in "The Omega Project: Near-Death
Experiences, UFO Encounters and the Mind at Large," a 320 page book
recently published by William Morrow and Co.

Ring found that both groups -- people who have had a near-death
experience and visits from aliens -- seem to have similar psychological
profiles. People who've seen the pure white light of the afterlife or
the large unblinking eyes of aliens are likely to report a history of
child abuse, trauma and stress.

Both phenomena may be rooted in an unusually acute psychological
sensitivity that not everyone shares, Ring says. Childhood abuse may
arouse or trigger this sensitivity.

But Ring emphasizes that this is not necessarily a matter of brain
chemistry or nuerology.

Flying saucers weren't observed until the first atom bomb was dropped,
and some UFO encounters may be the result of anxiety about nuclear
weapons and planetary destruction. Similarly, some who have near-death
experiences may be responding to an increasingly impersonal and
materialistic culture.

However, Ring favors a much more esoteric explanation -- one that many
other psychologists won't touch with a 10-foot phaser:

        These people seem to be able to perceive another dimension
        closed to the rest of us, a power that could mark a new stage in
        the evolution of the mind, Ring says in an incongruously
        matter-of-fact manner.

Ring is less interested in the blurry metaphysics of this strange world
of imagination that in the measureable physical and psychological
changes that emerge after a near-death experience or a UFO encounter.

"Is there any type of person who is especially susceptible to unusual
encounters like near-death experiences or UFO encounters? What are the
after effects?" Ring asked.

Ring stressed that he has no reason to believe that the planet is being
visited by beings from other worlds. "I'm not convinced by any evidence
that there are literal spacecraft coming to Earth to do nefarious things
to humans," Ring said in his sparse office.

A more likely hypothesis is that the affected groups have brain
anomalies, perhaps in the temporal lobe or limbic system, that permit
them to have near-death experiences or UFO encounters he said.

Something real has happened to these people. It needs to be looked at.
We have a mystery on our hands. Regardless of whether these experiences
are blissful or bestial they transform people," Ring said.

Most scientists are convinced that the experiences seem real but are no
more than a new kind of nuerological condition, or a sort of seizure.

It's difficult to assess the stories of tall thin aliens and elevation
on light beams without knowing about the rest of the narrator's life,
said Dr. Selby C. Jacobs, professor of psychiatry at the Yale School of
Medicine.

"I still don't know what to make of it," Jacob said of a UFO encounter
described by a heavy machine operator with a grade school education.

"It's not the type of thought content typical of delusional disorders.
It's coherent, detailed, highly developed and too graphic," Jacobs said.

"I don't think there was a spaceship," Jacobs added. The man may have
experienced an altered state of consciousness, or brought up a childhood
trauma in disguise, he said.

"Something funny happened in his brain. I'm not sure it's pathological.
I'm willing to accept it as within the realm of human experience,"
Jacobs said.

Jerome L. Singer, professor of psychology at Yale, said near-death
experiences and UFO abductions are legitimate to study as artifacts of
the imagination. Victims of childhood trauma sometimes develop extreme
bizarre fanatasies as adults, Singer said.

Ultimately, both phenomena may represent a strong fear of death through
escape or the existence of an afterlife, Singer said.

Or perhaps, Ring said, the people who have these visions have somehow
opened a window onto another reality -- the "imaginal realm" -- a kind
of twilight zone altered state between thinking and dreaming.

"Suppose we were aware only of sunlight. Some people might say 'There's
another world where sunlight is absent, with a black sky and stars and
planets.' If we only lived in a solar consciousness we wouldn't know
that exists," Ring said.

More to the point, people who say they've had near-death experiences or
UFO abductions "see" objects that they couldn't have seen, Ring said. In
one case a woman who was dead momentarily on an operating table floated
above the roof of the hospital and saw a single gym shoe that later was
found.

Others who have approached death have seen relatives they never knew or
did not know about, Ring said.

"We don't have neurological theory to explain this," Ring said. Nor is
there a way to explain why many of these people are left more sensitive
to light, sound and other stimuli; with different blood pressure and
temperature; different sleep patterns and a greater sense of social
concern and spirituality.
>>> Continued to next message

 * OLX 2.2 * I'm in shape ... round's a shape isn't it?

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: It's All In Your Head 2/
Date: 7 Nov 92 05:42:04 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Fidonet UFO Conference"
 * Originally by Ralph Toscano
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 30 Oct 1992, 10:53

>>> Continued from previous message
The human body or brain may contain as yet unknown sensory organs of a
type unimagined, or may be somehow sensitive to extremely low energy
fields, Ring said.

Another complication is that while near-death and UFO captures seem
similar, they have very  different effects on the people who experience
them.

Brushes with death typically bring a feeling of security and leave
people exhilarated and peaceful, while supposed interactions with aliens
cause the opposite reaction. Panic gives way to a sense of violation,
and concludes with hatred, anger and confusion, Ring found.

Also, near-death experiences usually happen only once to a person in
adulthood, while UFO episodes are frequently recurrent, often starting
in early childhood.

"We need to do research to reconcile these facts. We need to go beyond
the territory in which most scientists feel comfortable," Ring said.

***********************[ END OF FILE ]********************************


 * OLX 2.2 * I'm in shape ... round's a shape isn't it?

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Gary Long)
Subject: Interesting Account Con't
Date: 8 Nov 92 07:38:22 GMT

(267)   Thu 5 Nov 92 21:28
By: Tim Rue
To: All
Re: recall - Yes or No?
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:133/208.0 2af9d830
Being someone whom knows he has had encounters and satisfactory reason to
believe he has also been abducted, I have a question.

What positive productive value might I receive by taking steps to recall
details of such events?

Please, only reply with quality responces. I don't want or need skeptics,
deception, or suggestions. What I want is feedback based on actual case
studies of the improvements others have gained by recalling such
experences.

___
 X EZ 1.30 X Society - the force which determines the norm

wb

David,

If you have any interest in responding to this individual, I'd be happy to
cross post your input.  Thanks for your meaningful endeavors!

--Gary

--
Gary Long - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Scott Colborn)
Subject: Artesia, New Mexico
Date: 9 Nov 92 05:46:47 GMT

My name is Scott Colborn, Director of the Fortean Research Center in  Lincoln,
NE.  I
 I'm working on what appears to be an abduction case involving a Lincoln, NE,
woman. She believes that she has been taken to an underground facility called
Artesia. This underground facility is staffed by human  military personal and
"alien" beings. An alien being that was a major player in her on-going contacts
was for a time being held at this facility. Whether this "being" was being held
to gauge her response and  evaluate a bonding, or whether this "being" actually
was violating  prodedures with regards to emotional ties to this woman is
conjecture. She has undergone hypnosis and through this process she has rememb-
ered that she was taken to this facility to interact with hybrid children.
 The woman described the terrain as slightly rolling, the temperature as being
hot, with a water source nearby and some trees along or near the  water source.
 I've done some preliminary research and concluded that the best "fit" to  the
physical description given by the Lincoln woman is the area surrounding
Artesia, New Mexico. (She was told by one of the "beings" that the name of the
facility was "Artesia.")
 The town of Artesia, New Mexico and the general area surrounding the town seem
to fit her description.  I travelled through the area in July, `92, and the
Pecos River is to the east of the town.
 I would like to ask for assistance in several areas. First, are any of you
familiar with an "Artesia" in your area?  It could be a name for an area, but I
think it probably describes a city or town. Secondly, has anyone come across
reports of abductions where an individual was taken to an area that might fit
the "Artesia" description?  Thirdly, how about  reports involving what appear
to be humans in fatigues interacting with  "aliens" in a facility in which
hybrid children are kept?
 I realize that the above information is sparse, sketchy and bare-bones. In
researching this information I've had several interesting "responses" in the
form of an unsigned letter warning me to cease and desist from my efforts to
find out more about "Artesia." Additionally, during a radio program I host in
Lincoln, NE, as a guest (William Hamilton) and I had just begun to talk about
" the alien presence on Earth and rumored underground bases," the radio station
went off the air. To make a long story longer, suffice to say that the engineer
couldn't account for the  off-air occurance in terms of equipment failure. He
believed that something had to have interrupted the power supply to the
transmitter to trigger a protection circut to take it off-line.
So, from the information from the Lincoln abductee, and the coincidental letter
and off-air event, I've been interested in this case for several years.
 Lastly, apparently the first underground school in the country was built in
Artesia, New Mexico, at the height of the cold war. It admittedly is extreme
conjecture on my part, but wouldn't it be interesting if the underground school
was also built so that children could be observed,  monitored and studied by an
alien presence?  Maybe....maybe not, but the Artesia-Lincoln connection is an
interesting case.
 Thanks for any information you may send my way. Again, the case is much more
complex than what I've alluded to here. But perhaps this bit of information
might be enough to cause you to contact me with any relavant information. I
appreciate your interest and input, and ask your forgiveness at the lack of
details here. More will be forthcoming-most probably in an issue of the Journal
of the Fortean Research Center.
I can be reached at 402-421-1701 during the day. Because of budget constraints,
I may not be able to return a tremendous amount of phone calls. Perhaps you can
contact me here through the board.
 Again, thanks!
 Scott H. Colborn

--
Scott Colborn - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Linda case
Date: 7 Nov 92 11:12:06 GMT


 -=> Quoting David Jacobs to All <=-

 DJ> Hold on.  Steady.  The attacks are beginning to be
 DJ> mounted in the  Linda case.  [...]

David, I'm planning to attend the MUFON meeting (Winterthur Museum,
Copeland Lecture Hall, DE, 11/21) where you'll be speaking.  Would it be
possible for us to discuss at that time (afterwards?) some of the items
that I mentioned in that massive 3-parter I sent you a few months ago?

I would also like to discuss with you several ideas, as well as your own
ideas, regarding electronic monitoring and documentation of an abduction
event.

 DJ> Budd Hopkins is one of  the
 DJ> most respected researchers in the history of UFO
 DJ> investigations.  He  deserves to have the benefit of the
 DJ> doubt in all attacks until he  publishes the complete
 DJ> history of the Linda case.

He has certainly earned 'innocent until proven guilty', if not much more
than that otherwise obvious pronouncement.

Thanks, take care.
John.
-
<Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence>

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--
John Powell - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Spheres and OOBE
Date: 10 Nov 92 06:16:02 GMT

David,

I am curious to find out how many cases you or Hopkins have worked on that involve a sphere or an OOBE event.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]


*******************************************************************************
Submissions                                          [e-mail]
Administrative requests                      [e-mail]
FTP archive                           grind.isca.uiowa.edu:/info/paranet/abduct
Permission to distribute                             [e-mail]
Private mail to Paranet/Fidonet users            [e-mail]
UUCP gateway                                             {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom
********************End**of**the**Abduction**Newsletter************************


                          Abduction Digest, Number 79

                         Wednesday, November 25th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                              Close Encounter group
                                      Stats
                                  Delaware talk
                                Spheres and OOBEs
                                   Linda case

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bob Dunn)
Subject: Close Encounter group
Date: 19 Nov 92 05:28:00 GMT

This message was from SCOTT COLBORN to ALL,
originally in conference FIDO UFO
and was forwarded to you by BOB DUNN.
                     -------------------------
Hello.  My name is Scott Colborn, and I'm the Director of the Fortean  Research
Center, Lincoln, NE.  I've had a special interest in reports of  abduction and
contact with regards to the UFO phenomena.  About four  years ago I founded a
support group in the Lincoln, NE, area for people  who had reported a close
encounter experience.  This group is on-going  and is a "closed group" with
screening of potential members done by  myself.  Please feel free to let
people know who you may be in  conversation with that this group exists.
Secondly, we have developed a very good relationship with several psychologists
and a psychiatrist who  have expressed an interest in working with people who
have made claims of  close encounter experiences.  Our support group works
like many other  types of support groups, and it can be as quiet or dynamic as
the members  wish.
Again, please feel free to pass this information along to any who might  find
it of interest.  Thanks for your help.  Anyone wishing to  communicate their
interest may do so in care of this board, or, by  writing me c/o: The Fortean
Research Center, P.O. Box 94627, Lincoln, NE,  68509.  I can be reached at
402-421-1701 from 1-7 p.m, Monday-Friday.
Best wishes, Scott Colborn, Director, The Fortean Research Center.


--
Bob Dunn - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jeff Brewi)
Subject: Stats
Date: 19 Nov 92 01:42:36 GMT

I am curious if there has been a statistical database made on most/all
recorded abductions. I think this would be a valuable tool in studying
prospective abductees if one could cross-reference with other abductees
at a statistical level. I realize there would be numerous topics in the
database, but I think if it were limited to the more common points it
could be useful in some cases.

Also curious about after affects/symptoms...do abductees feel extremely
lethargic a few days after the abduction? Do they have physical signs
such as swollen glands? flu/cold-like symptoms? etc.?

>From what I have read, in most cases(all?), most abductees can tell of
the abduction in 'vivid detail', are there any/many cases that are not
so detailed, and can these 'vague' cases be deemed as an actual
abduction? Are there any cases in which the conscious memory is vague,
but under hypnotic regression the abduction is revealed in detail?


--
Jeff Brewi - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Delaware talk
Date: 20 Nov 92 06:26:47 GMT


    John, I will be glad to talk with you about the Linda case tothe best of my
ability if I have the time after the Delaware MUFON talk.  See you  there.

--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Spheres and OOBEs
Date: 20 Nov 92 06:38:32 GMT


    Michael, good to talk to you again.  I am afraid that I have been somewhat
lax in keeping up with the messages on Paranet so I am not exactly sure to what
you refer when you talk about spheres. From time to time abductees will recount
incidents in which a ball-shaped object  will be passed over their body, or
they will discuss spheres that emit  light and that they are required to stand
under. I have had a case in which a green sphere appeared to follow an abductee
down a corridor  during an abduction incident.

     Abductees will also report seeing balls of light in their room seconds
before an abduction. In the same way they will often think that they are having
an out of body experience when in fact they are being floated up and out of
their room.  I have even had them "remember" that they could "see" their bodies
still in the bed or chair while they floated up. Investigation revealed that
that was not the case.

     Out of Body Experiences are apparently a real phenomenon. It is usually
coupled with extreme stress or trauma (being on an operating  table, or lying
on the pavement after having been hit by a truck), or by  meditation in which
an out of body experience is desired.  When abductees  think that they have had
an OBE, it is often unwanted or unexpected.  They might be sitting on the couch
with a can of beer in their hands  watching David Letterman when suddenly they
begin to have an "out of body  experience."  Needless to say, this is very
suspicious and when a  researcher hears this it is important to be suspicious
about the  incident--it might mask something else happening.

--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Linda case
Date: 20 Nov 92 06:43:44 GMT


    Don, Linda's case, in my estimation, is rock solid. This is a multileveled
case involving a series of witnesses to the complex events  within it. Budd
Hopkins will have a piece come out in the next MUFON UFO  Journal about one of
the witnesses which, I think, will help to alleviate  some of the anxiety about
this case.

--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]


*******************************************************************************
Submissions                                          [e-mail]
Administrative requests                      [e-mail]
FTP archive                           grind.isca.uiowa.edu:/info/paranet/abduct
Permission to distribute                             [e-mail]
Private mail to Paranet/Fidonet users            [e-mail]
UUCP gateway                                             {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom
********************End**of**the**Abduction**Newsletter************************


                          Abduction Digest, Number 80

                           Sunday, December 6th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                 Smoke detectors
                              Close Encounter group
                                      Stats
                                  Delaware talk
                                   Linda case
                                 Abduction Help
                                      Stats
                              Close Encounter group
                            Close Encounter group 1/2
                            Close Encounter group 2/2
                                     RI Help
                                    9:1012/0
                                   Linda Case
                                    Re: Stats
                                   Linda Case

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (William Phillips)
Subject: Smoke detectors
Date: 26 Nov 92 10:50:00 GMT

Dr. Jacobs,
sa saw on Prodigy today in one of the religion BBS areas, some person
who seemed to think dreams he was having were possibly related to
abductions.  The unusual thing is, this person claims everytime he has
such a dream, he awakens to the smoke alarm going off.  Type of alarm
was not specified, though the descriptions of the dream seemed not
unrelated to the phenomena as reported by Hopkins, you and others.  I
read SECRET LIFE in detail, especially alternative explanations and the
how-to-prevent abductions section.  Of course, your conclusion from the
evidence was that abductions are not preventable.  But--anecdotal as
the mention on Prodigy was--could there be some kind of linkage?
Putting 2 and 2 together to get 15, could the dreamer be in some kind
of fugue state and influenced by popular UFO reportage AND by some
toxic substance in the air, sensed by the smoke sniffer?  Or could
there be some alien atmospheric disturbance (in the blue light, etc.)
which could set off the alarm?  Not many facts here, but...
Enjoy your work, especially the rigor.  Thanks.

--
William Phillips - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael S. Carter)
Subject: Close Encounter group
Date: 29 Nov 92 00:03:00 GMT

Bob,
My name is Michael S. Carter, Investigator for MOFON Oklahoma and
editor of the OK MUFONews. I have an abductee visiting from Rhode
Island who was involved in a multiple witness abduction as a child
in 1965. Others of the group have undergone regress and therapy for
the abduction but this one person has not and is having a terrible
time handling the stresses of possible ongoing scenarios. Do you
know of anyone in this area that is doing regression/therapy work
with whom I could put her in contact? They must be caring,
compassionate and knowlegeable of the abduction phenomenon. My
visitor lives alone and has no transportation. Perhaps someone might
be interested enough to meet her close or travel a short distance to
their home. I/d appreciate any assistance you could provide. As an
abductee myself, I well know how it feels to be utterly alone with
no one to express yourself to. Thanks much.
--
Michael S. Carter - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Carter)
Subject: Stats
Date: 29 Nov 92 21:50:00 GMT

Hi Jeff.
In response to whether there is a statistical database of abduction
stories, I can tell you that Budd Hopkins adn David M. Jacobs are
putting together a compendium of as many abduction case reports and
their specifics as they can get their hands on. They have made an
open request of MUFON to supply them with whatever they can. You're
right, this should go a long way in consolidating into one source
accounts which can then be studied in relation to all other reports
on file. As an abductee myself, I'm anxious for this work to be
completed.
  About abductee stories. There many cases where abductees DO have
at least partial conscious recall--some more than others. I for one
did have at least partial recall. However, hypnotic regression
uncovered much more than the remembered parts. I believe this to be
the norm in most cases. Talk to you soon. Michael S. Carter OK MUFON I
--
Michael Carter - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael S. Carter)
Subject: Delaware talk
Date: 29 Nov 92 21:58:01 GMT

Mr. Jacobs,
I am an investigator for Oklahoma MUFON and the editor of the OK
MUFON NEws. I have a person visiting from Rhode Island who was part
of a multiple witness abduction back in 1965. Others of the group
have had their cases investigated and have undergone therapy and
regression about the event. The Rhode Islander has found no one in
her area that she can turn to, however. She has contacted the MUFON
SSD in the area but is not comfortable with him. SHe seems to be
having quite a bad time of coping with the possibility of ongoing
abductions since that time. Although she has not made a conscious
decision as to the cause of the several events in question, she is
seeking help in dealing with them--A lot of anxiety of being alone
and trouble sleeping. Can you direct me to a competent mental health
professional who would be interested in taking on such a case. They
should be located in or near Providence Rhode Island. I and (Cheryl)
would be eternally grateful. As an abductee myself, I am quite aware
of the isolation and frustration of not having someone to speak
with. Thanks much.
--
Michael S. Carter - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Linda case
Date: 30 Nov 92 00:47:00 GMT


 DJ>     Don, Linda's case, in my estimation, is rock solid.
 DJ> This is a  multileveled case involving a series of
 DJ> witnesses to the complex events  within it.  Budd Hopkins
 DJ> will have a piece come out in the next MUFON UFO  Journal
 DJ> about one of the witnesses which, I think, will help to
 DJ> alleviate  some of the anxiety about this case.

Thanks for the response David..sorry about the delay in answering.

I have serious questions as to Hopkin's data on the case and whether
or not it can be independently verified. Has he shown you anything
that would "hold up in court" ?

A recent buzz is that "Dan" (one of the security officers) is no where
to be found. If this case is so rock solid as we've been led to believe
then WHY does it take some one like a George Hansen to get people asking
hard questions? I noted that Jerome Clark answered _none_ of Hansen's
questions but was content instead to attack Hansen personally. That's
not the mark of a serious professional (IMHO) and I must question
aspects of this case that just don't seem to add up and I'm forced
to continue asking, "Where's the beef" ?

Don

--
Don Allen - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Carter)
Subject: Abduction Help
Date: 2 Dec 92 02:31:00 GMT

Dr. JAcobs,
I am a MUFON Investigator for the state of OK and I am searching desperately
to find a qualified mental health professional in the Rhode Island Area for a
young woman who was involved in a multiple witness abduction scenario in 1965.
Since then several others in the group  have sought help and have had this
case documented. At least some of them have had ongoing event. This particular
person (Cheryl) can find no one in her part of the country in which to confide
in and receive therapy. She is having much trouble sleeping and having
anxieties about being alone. She most probably has had ongoing abduction
events. Can you help in referring Cheryl and I to a properly qualified
researcher who is willing to take on a case such as this? We'd appreciate any
advice or contact that you could give

--
Michael Carter - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Scott Colborn)
Subject: Stats
Date: 2 Dec 92 03:47:53 GMT

Hello Jeff.  In response to your questions regarding the abduction  mystery,
you may wish to read the Journal of the Fortean Research Center  (The Fortean
Research Center, P.O. Box 94627, Lincoln, NE, 68509, $3.50  each plus $1.25
postage), specifically Volume 5, Numbers 1 & 2.  In these  Journals are a
number of articles written by myself and others on the  specifics and
generalities of abduction and close encounter reports.  In  these articles
written by myself, I argue that it's not just one item,  instance, or "strange
occurance" that labels something as an "abduction."  Rather, one must make an
evaluation based on a number of factors.  As we  begin to recognize specific
factors that seem to occur in a number of  abduction and contact reports, we
can begin to establish criteria for  what is and what is not an abduction or
contact.  At the same time, we  must strive to remain "open" to data that
doesn't seem to fit individual  researchers' points-of-view or reject a report
because it hasn't occured  in other reports.  Only by looking at each specific
case, and the  information within each report, can we begin to understand what
the abduction experience really is. And just as importantly, researchers must
also look at how the person making the report has been impacted,  changed, or
affected by the experience(s).
In closing, you may wish to read Dr. Jacob's book among others as a good source
of information on the abduction and contact issue.
Best wishes, Scott Colborn, Director, The Fortean Research Center.

--
Scott Colborn - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Colborn)
Subject: Close Encounter group
Date: 2 Dec 92 03:56:23 GMT

Hello Michael.  Just read your message to my friend and colleague Bob Dunn
regarding your interest in a therapist for a friend desiring  regression work.
 As I'm not sure of what "locale" you are interested in,  I'll just say that we
have an excellent pschologist in the Lincoln, NE,  area who is interested in
close encounters.  Additionally, we have a  psychiatrist who can provide
medical assistance.  Should you be  interested in them, please contact me care
of the board, or call  402-421-1701, 1-7 pm, Monday-Friday.  If it's the
Oklahoma area you are  looking in (for a therapist), I'm sure that Jean Waller
can help you  "down there."
Best wishes, Scott Colborn, Director, The Fortean Research Center.
P.S...saw part of the OU/NE football game...looked a lot closer than the final
score.  OU will be back next year, I'm sure.

--
Scott Colborn - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Bob Dunn)
Subject: Close Encounter group 1/2
Date: 2 Dec 92 07:10:00 GMT

MSC>. Do you know of anyone in this area that is doing regression/therapy work
MSC>with whom I could put her in contact? They must be caring, compassionate

  Hi Michael, I found this list of therapists currently working with
  abductees on another network. I hope it will be of some help for you.

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 The following list was taken (without permission but strictly in the
 non-commercial interest of promoting expedited theraputic intervention)
 from the book titled Encounters: A Psychologist Reveals Evidence of
 Contact With Extraterrestrials, Edith Fiore, Ph.D., (c) 1989 Edith
 Fiore, Ph.D. - Published by Doubleday - a Division of Bantam Doubleday
 Dell Publishing Group, Inc., 666 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10103.
 ISBN: 0-385-26236-1

 Hypnotherapists Working With Abductees/Contactees (pg. 339 - Appendix)

 Aphrodite Clamar, Ph.D.
 30 E. 60th St.,
 Suite 1107
 New York, NY 10022
 [phone]

 Beverly J. Carter
 4491 South Yates
 Denver, CO  80236
 [phone]

 Ann Druffel
 257 Sycamore Glen
 Pasadena, CA  91105
 [phone]

 Stephen Field, Pd.D.
 800 Oak Grove,
 Suite 207
 Menlo Park, CA  94025
 [phone]

 Edith Fiore, Ph.D.
 20688 Fourth St.,
 Saratoga, CA  95070
 [phone]

 Josie Hadley
 2443 Ash St.,
 Suite D
 Pala Alto, CA  94306
 [phone]

 Richard Haines, Ph.D.
 PO Box 880
 Los Altos, CA  94023-0880

 Tisha Hallet
 450 San Antonio Rd.,
 Suite 27
 Palo Alto, CA  94036
 [phone]

 James Harder, Ph.D.
 2800 Hilgard St.
 Berkeley, CA  94709
 [phone]

 Barbara Levy, Ph.D.
 317 Eureka St.
 San Francisco, CA  94114
 [phone]
 [phone]

 Linda Marie Martin
 152 Olive Springs Rd.
 Soquel, CA  95073
 [phone]

 Jeffrey Mishlove, Ph.D.
 48 St. Francis La.
 San Rafael, CA  94901
 [phone]

 Raymond Moody, M.D.
 205 Tanner St.
 Carrolton, GA  30117
 [phone]

 Sharon Moss, Ph.D.
 2947 Eastmoreland
 Oregon, OH  43616
 [phone]

 Jean Mundy, Ph.D
 33 Windward
 East Hampton, NY 11937
 [phone]
    and
 105 West 13th St.
 New York, NY  10011
 [phone]

 June Parnell, Ph.D.
 2219 Rainbow Ave.,
 Laramie, WY  82070
 [phone]

 Alice Rose, Ph.D.
 4651 Roswell Rd.,
 Suite I-8013
 Atlanta, GA  30342
 [phone]

 Patricia Shaw, Ph.D.
 225 S. Meramec Ave.,
 Suite 506
 St. Louis, MO  63105
 [phone]

 Richard Sigismund
 1557 9th St.,
 Boulder, CO  80302
 [phone]

 June Steiner
 987 University Ave.,
 Suite 6
 Los Gatos, CA  95030
 [phone]

 Jo Stone, MFCC
 PO Box 2828
 Los Angeles, CA  90078

 Sue Street, Ph.D.
 University of South Florida
 St. Petersburg Campus
 140 7th. Ave. South
 St. Petersburg, FL 33701
 [phone]

 Keith Thompson
 PO Box 5055
 Mill Valley, CA  94942
 [phone]
 >>> Continued to next message

--
Bob Dunn - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Bob Dunn)
Subject: Close Encounter group 2/2
Date: 2 Dec 92 07:10:00 GMT

>>> Continued from previous message
 Mary Ellen Trahan, Ph.D.
 205 Tanner St.
 Carrolloton, GA  30117
 [phone]

 Norma Triggs
 10 Willow Creek
 Richardson, TX  75080

 Thomas J. Zinser, Ed.D.
 2041 Raybrook SE
 Grand Rapids, MI  49506
 [phone]

 ============= End of List =======================

--
Bob Dunn - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: RI Help
Date: 3 Dec 92 08:10:46 GMT


    I'm sorry to say that I do not know of anyone in the Providence area. The
best I can do right now is to refer her to John Mack at Harvard Medical School,
or Susan Fox in Boston. The problem is that we simply do not have enough people
around the country who are able to do this type of work. Budd Hopkins and I are
trying to alleviate the situation by holding workshops for mental health
professionals to educate them about the properties of the abduction phenomenon,
hypnosis of abductees, and even therapeutic techniques for abductees. So far we
have conducted two workshops, one in New York, and one in Los Angeles. Our next
will either be in Atlanta or Texas. It's going to take a while but we hope to
have at least one qualified individual in each major city. I understand the
pressure that she must be under and I sympathize with her problem. I run across
these situations on a daily basis. I feel frustrated and powerless. Perhaps
there is some way that she can get to Mack or Fox. If I do find anyone I will
alert you immediately. In the meantime, hold on.

--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: 9:1012/0
Date: 3 Dec 92 08:12:32 GMT


    Mike, I'll be glad to help out in any way I can.

--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Linda Case
Date: 3 Dec 92 08:31:22 GMT


  The best that I can say is that when Budd completes his ongoing investigation
of this complex and extraordinarily important case you will all be able to
judge for yourselves whether Hansen has asked hard questions. Hold tight. Give
Budd the benefit of the doubt. Hansen knows very little about this case.

--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Jeff Brewi)
Subject: Re: Stats
Date: 3 Dec 92 14:50:56 GMT

MC> at least partial conscious recall--some more than others. I for one
MC> did have at least partial recall. However, hypnotic regression
MC> uncovered much more than the remembered parts. I believe this to be
MC> the norm in most cases. Talk to you soon. Michael S. Carter OK MUFON I

On the parts that you could consciously recall, were those parts in
great detail, or were they vague, sort of dreamlike, and if the
conscious recall was vague, did the hypnotic regression bring those
parts out with greater detail?

Thanks for your response including that you've been abducted and had
partial recall, trying to figure out if people who have some recall,
but it is vague, if it is valid.

Jeff


--
Jeff Brewi - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Linda Case
Date: 5 Dec 92 08:33:00 GMT

In response to Don Allen's inquiry about the Linda Napolitano
case, Dr. Jacobs replied as follows:

 +     The best that I can say is that when Budd completes his
 + ongoing  investigation of this complex and extraordinarily
 + important case you will  all be able to judge for
 + yourselves whether Hansen has asked hard  questions.  Hold
 + tight.  Give Budd the benefit of the doubt.  Hansen  knows
 + very little about this case.

Prof. Jacobs:

       Hansen's "hard questions" (read that: Hard *ON*) aside,
some good questions have been raised about this case.  I'm just
wondering whether "Hold tight" means: "Spend $20 on the book
before you make up your mind", (as in the Ed Walters case).  Can
we expect an article by Budd in some "free" venue (such as the
_IUR_ or _MUFON UFO Journal_) or does "open mindedness" require a
book purchase (again)?
                                     --  John

--
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********************End**of**the**Abduction**Newsletter************************


                          Abduction Digest, Number 81

                           Monday, December 14th 1992

     (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.

Today's Topics:

                                Spheres and OOBEs
                                   Linda case
                                   Linda Case
                                    Re: Stats
                               Imaginary or Real?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Spheres and OOBEs
Date: 6 Dec 92 23:33:00 GMT


DJ>     Abductees will also report seeing balls of light in their room  seconds
DJ>before an abduction.  In the same way they will often think that  they are
DJ>having an out of body experience when in fact they are being  floated up and
DJ>out of their room.  I have even had them "remember" that  they could "see"
DJ>their bodies still in the bed or chair while they  floated up.  Investigation
DJ>revealed that that was not the case.

Along those lines, we have what may be an important case here in Scottsdale -
important because we believe it to be a hoax. More precisely, we are
probably dealing with a well-intentioned but deranged mind.

This gentleman called our hotline to report that an object had landed and
left a trace in his front yard. We investigated, and during our interview he
reported all manner of mysterious happenings in his past, from a consciously
remembered abduction by a Moses-like being to spheres floating around his
room to poltergeist phenomena. Over the course of a few interviews it became
apparent that he believed himself to be psychic, and at one point predicted
that "they" would appear at a given place in Arizona on a certain Saturday,
and that we were welcome to drive up with him and take a look. We sent one
of our local members up with him, but nothing happened.

At one point this individual called us and told us that two men had stopped
by his house to look at the landing trace (a small circular patch of
retarded grass growth - samples on their way to CUFOS). He said they were
dressed "like Mormons" (conservative shirt and tie), and that they were
driving a black Ford Taurus. He went outside to ask them for ID, and when
they refused, he went in for his gun. When he came back out, they were gone.

Last week, he told us another man had come to gawk at the circle, and that
he called the police on him. The police arrived, talked to the man for a few
minutes, then came to the witness' door and told him it was alright, the
man was just a surveyor. A check with Scottsdale police shows no record of
a call from our witness on that morning. Ray Maurer, state director of
MUFON, performed the check with the police, and is an expert on police
computer dispatch systems. He states there is little likelihood that such a
call could be erased from the system. When he called the witness again and
asked him to step through the incident, the story changed so that the
policeman left without speaking to our witness. When confronted with this,
the witness hemmed and hawed, and no longer wished to talk about the
incident.

It is our belief, from the gentle nature of the witness and his seeming
desire for attention, that we have an example of someone who is lying about
his UFO experiences for reasons other than financial gain. We are handing
his case over to a qualified psychologist, but I believe it is important to
study such cases in order to get a feel for the "psychology of fabrication,"
so that we may better recognize it in other cases.

It is signficant to note that this individual was hypnotized and regressed
to a half-remembered incident in his childhood, where his mother said he
disappeared for a few hours. The regression brought out contact with
entities, but Ray Maurer, who performed the regression, did not recognize
them from any other accounts.  The entire incident did not "map" with
anything in the investigator's experience. This by itself is not grounds for
dismissing the case, obviously, but coupled with his other erratic behavior,
it is of interest and may impact on the question of how we distinguish
between "true" abductions and false memories or confabulation.

A full report of this case is in the works. Again, I feel it is just as
important to follow through on cases of this nature as it is to follow up on
those we suspect are "genuine."

Jim

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (David Jacobs)
Subject: Linda case
Date: 7 Dec 92 07:25:50 GMT


    John,
     Unfortunately, Budd does not have a book contract at the present time but
he is busy trying to put the enormous complexity of the case into logical order
in order to publish it.  This is a case that deserves a book to do it justice
and I hope that he eventually does publish it.  He is coming out with an
article in the next (?) MUFON UFO JOURNAL on one of the witnesses to the event.
After that, I hope that he can publish the material as a book. Budd has spent
nearly two years researching this case.  The amount of time and energy he has
put into it have been enormous.  As all serious UFO researchers know, you do
not go into this  line of endeavor to get rich.

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Linda Case
Date: 8 Dec 92 08:13:21 GMT


 +     The best that I can say is that when Budd completes his ongoing
 + investigation of this complex and extraordinarily important case you
 + will  all be able to judge for yourselves whether Hansen has asked
 + hard  questions.  Hold tight.  Give Budd the benefit of the doubt.
 + Hansen  knows very little about this case.

Ok, and thanks for the response.

Don

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Carter)
Subject: Re: Stats
Date: 11 Dec 92 20:49:00 GMT

Hi Jeff,
Sorry for the delay in responding. In answer to your question about
my conscious recall--it was somewhat detailed in certain parts and
more vague in others. During the encounter I felt that I did not
have full control over my body and felt somewhat groggy as if
drugged or controlled in some way. During hypnosis, most memories
and recall were in somewhat more vivid detail as I relivved the
events. Certainly the events were expounded upon under hypnosis as
blank spots were filled in that I had not recalled conscouisly. Some
of these memories turned out to be the kind that have never been
published in books or mags that researchers keep back as checks
against possilbe fabrication. Thanks for your interest.
Michael S. Carter
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jeff Brewi)
Subject: Imaginary or Real?
Date: 12 Dec 92 17:35:06 GMT

I have been reading a book called _The Evidence For ALien ABductions_
by John Rimmer C. 1984...

I would like to summarize and\or quote an experiment and the results.

The experiment was conducted by Alvin Lawson and William McCall.

The concept was to be able to distinguish the abduction info given
during hypnotic regression between a real abduction and a hoax(the
reason for the hoax for this particular experiment was irrelevent).
They wanted a database of info that could distinguish real data from
imaginary data.

"They began by locating a number of people who would be willing to
participate in their experiments, but who knew little or nothing about
UFOs - possibly a rather difficult task in Southern California where
they operated...These...subjects were then 'led into' a UFO abduction
scenario by means of a carefully designed series of leading questions,
which suggested the bare outlines of the abduction but left the subject
free to fill in the details. These details would come...from the
witnesses' own imaginations. They would then be able to compare the
imaginary abductions with th real events, and by a comparison of the
differences between the two, would be able to gain valuable clues to
use when trying to sort out any hoaxes in the cases that came to them
as UFO researchers."
One interjection here- how did they know that their supposed known- the
so-called 'real' abductions were in fact, real abductions? Not saying
the supposed real were not real, but no comment in the text
mentioned this point. I took the assumption that their real database
were witnesses who were not led into the abduction or prior cases,
possibly by other researchers.

"...But the experiments went spectacularly wrong...what happened was
that the 'imaginary' stories were quite indistinguishable from the
'real' experiences, even down to tiny details..."

The text then goes further into the stereotyped abductee, some of the
stories the witnesses gave, etc...until the text leads into the
researchers conclusion, "Birth Trauma Hypothesis."

The point here is it is very difficult to distinguish between an actual
abduction(if in fact they do occur) and the imagination.
 Possibly physical evidence(scarring etc...), but then who can prove
an alien lifeform is doing the abduction? Much can be inferred into a
mind through a prior programming which can come out in a later
regression.

I believe little to no headway has been made into the proof of alien
abductions, other than stories told by potential abductees, which could
be imagination or from other programming.


--
Jeff Brewi - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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